Apocrypha contradict Jesus's teachings?

[Estro Felino]

What proof is there that Joseph was old and already married? None. The bible writers do not say that is so.

The Gospel of James. For a historian there is no difference between the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of James. They are both historically relevant

 

[Estro Felino]

I'm not understanding the relevance here. If Joseph had children otherwise, they would have been Jesus's half -sibling, not full siblings.

Joseph is pictured with 'white' or greyish hair, afaik, again, his age seems irrelevant though.

That's exactly what I am saying. The Canonical gospels talk about Jesus's siblings; it deals surely with Joseph's children from the previous marriage. and so Jesus's siblings-
besides, the Gospel of James underlines that Joseph didn't want to marry Mary; and it is very probable that he was not interested in sex any more because of his old age.

8) And Joseph replied, saying, "I have sons and am old, while she is young. I will not be
ridiculed among the children of Israel."

 

[Pegg]

The Gospel of James. For a historian there is no difference between the Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of James. They are both historically relevant

there are 4 gospel writers and many other witnesses who all testify that Mary had children... there is one apochryphal unknown writer who says she had none.

there is truth in numbers.

 

[Pegg]

That's exactly what I am saying. The Canonical gospels talk about Jesus's siblings; it deals surely with Joseph's children from the previous marriage. and so Jesus's siblings-
besides, the Gospel of James underlines that Joseph didn't want to marry Mary; and it is very probable that he was not interested in sex any more because of his old age.

How old was Joseph?

 

[Estro Felino]

How old was Joseph?

That sentence is clear. He didn't want to be ridiculed because he knew he couldn't consummate the marriage. But of course it is only a hypothesis.
Let's say he was 70. Viagra didn't exist at that time.

just one question. Why does it bother you so much, that Mary may have been childless all life long?
I mean that she had no children besides Jesus

 

[Pegg]

That sentence is clear. He didn't want to be ridiculed because he knew he couldn't consummate the marriage. But of course it is only a hypothesis.
Let's say he was 70. Viagra didn't exist at that time.

just one questions. Why does it bother you so much, that Mary may have been childless all life long?
I mean that she had no children besides Jesus

where do you get the 70 from??? Is that just a guess? Do you realise that Jesus was called 'the carpenters son'....this indicates that Joseph was young enough to work the trade of a carpenter, to train Jesus in the work and he must have been good at it because people knew his father as 'The Carpenter'

Do you know how difficult a job it would have been to cut down your own trees and saw them into small workable pieces, travel long distances carrying the wood back home.... not the type of work an old man could do.

I believe that the holy scriptures are Gods word and provide us with the truth. Anything which contradicts them cannot be true.

 

[Estro Felino]

where do you get the 70 from??? Is that just a guess? Do you realise that Jesus was called 'the carpenters son'....this indicates that Joseph was young enough to work the trade of a carpenter, to train Jesus in the work and he must have been good at it because people knew his father as 'The Carpenter'

Do you know how difficult a job it would have been to cut down your own trees and saw them into small workable pieces, travel long distances carrying the wood back home.... not the type of work an old man could do.

I believe that the holy scriptures are Gods word and provide us with the truth. Anything which contradicts them cannot be true.

Okay, tell me. In your opinion, how old was Joseph when he married Mary?
and how old was Jesus when Joseph died?
I remind you that in the canonical Gospels, Joseph dies of old age

 

[Pegg]

Okay, tell me. In your opinion, how old was Joseph when he married Mary?
and how old was Jesus when Joseph died?
I remind you that in the canonical Gospels, Joseph dies of old age

the answer is unknown because the bible does not state his age, nor does it state how he died.

We know that Jesus was 33 years old when he died...and Joseph had died some time before then. When Jesus began preaching, the gospel relates that Mary came seeking to speak with Jesus and she was accompanied by her sons and daughers but there is no mention of her husband being present indicating that she was the head of her house at that time. So Joseph must have died before Jesus began preaching.

But the bible is silent on when or how Joseph died.

 

[SageTree]

I like how Shiranui117 's post is just over looked.
Sad when good points, that don't fuel argument is overlooked.

 

[Keepthelaw]

In order to answer the question one must know and understand the teachings of Jesus. Then work from there. Most people would answer your question from an orthodox Christian perspective. Is that view the correct one? How is anyone to know? There are a few things all the known Gospels have in common. He was an extra ordinary very wise teacher, someone to emulate. His life was the lesson taught. He had followers, but these people couldn’t grasp the full message. I find the title of the “Gospel of Thomas” very creative. The word Thomas means twin. The message of the Gospel is that when the reader fully understands the text, he becomes not a Christian but a Christ, hence twin.

Who is Thomas?
What gospel is this? I have not heard of him not in all the scriptures that has been shown to me not even this day

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

The Gospel of St. Thomas, whilst not Scripture, is early, spiritually profound, and orthodox. It is well worth reading by orthodox Christians as an extra source of spiritual inspiration.

 

[roger1440]

Who is Thomas?
What gospel is this? I have not heard of him not in all the scriptures that has been shown to me not even this day

1: Go to Google
2: Enter Gospel of Thomas in the search bar
3: Click Enter

 

[Shiranui117]

The Gospel of St. Thomas, whilst not Scripture, is early, spiritually profound, and orthodox. It is well worth reading by orthodox Christians as an extra source of spiritual inspiration.

The so-called Gospel of Thomas is not orthodox, either with a big O or with a small o. It is a Gnostic writing, and this is clear to see if you read the text. It isn't as blatant about it as, say, the so-called Gospel of Philip, but it is doubtlessly Gnostic. It was never accepted by any Christian church whatsoever.

 

[roger1440]

The so-called Gospel of Thomas is not orthodox, either with a big O or with a small o. It is a Gnostic writing, and this is clear to see if you read the text. It isn't as blatant about it as, say, the so-called Gospel of Philip, but it is doubtlessly Gnostic. It was never accepted by any Christian church whatsoever.

What makes it Gnostic?

 

[Shiranui117]

What makes it Gnostic?

The emphasis on hidden knowledge and understanding, for one thing.

And you can also see the Gnostic cosmology and narrative in verses like verse 18:

The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?" Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.
Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

In Gnosticism, we all originally dwelt in the Pleroma, or the Divine Fullness. But after the fall of Sophia and the Demiurge's creation of the world using sparks and fragments of the light of the Pleroma (i.e. us), we became trapped in the world. And over time, we forgot our divine origins, and you basically have a situation like that of the Matrix, where this false world fashioned by the Demiurge keeps us imprisoned, and we are ignorant to the truth about this world and the true world (the Pleroma) beyond it. In Gnosticism, the goal is to return to the Pleroma, and reunite our divine sparks with the Father.

The idea of our divine sparks becoming entrapped within this material realm fashioned by the Demiurge is clearly seen in verse 29:
Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels. Yet I marvel at how this great wealth has come to dwell in this poverty."

"This great wealth" refers to our spirits, and the divine spark within. "This poverty" refers to our physical bodies, and the physical world which they inhabit.

The Gnostic concept of the Pleroma can be seen in verse 50, exactly as I have described it:
Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.'
If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.'
If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'

The idea that we are ignorant of the truth of this world can be seen in verses 28 and 56:

Jesus said, "I took my stand in the midst of the world, and in flesh I appeared to them. I found them all drunk, and I did not find any of them thirsty. My soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their hearts and do not see, for they came into the world empty, and they also seek to depart from the world empty. But meanwhile they are drunk. When they shake off their wine, then they will change their ways."

Jesus said, "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered a carcass, and whoever has discovered a carcass, of that person the world is not worthy."

So, though the so-called Gospel of Thomas does contain actual sayings of Jesus that either perfectly or mostly match those found in the actual Gospels, the Gospel of Thomas is not orthodox because of its Gnostic flavor and ideas.

 

[Estro Felino]

If Mary had other children then the doctrine of the 'perpetual virgin' is false, and thus so is the Popes infallibility.
.

Okay, let's define what a dogma is. A dogma is about the nature of God, of Mary and Christ, just to give a simplified definition, and not an academic one.

So the Pope's infallibility is not a dogma.
In fact the Orthodox Church doesn't believe in Pope's infallibility, but its dogmas (about God, Christ and Mary) are identical to the Catholic ones.
That's why Catholicism doesn't consider Orthodoxy a heretical Church. But it is considered like a "Catholic schismatic Church".

I don't believe in Pope's infallibility either. And still I have the right to consider myself a Catholic, because I believe in the most important Catholic dogma, which is: Jesus is God.

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

The emphasis on hidden knowledge and understanding, for one thing.

I'm sorry, but this is wrong. To simply mention hidden knowledge is not at all enough to denote Gnosticism, any more than the injunction not to throw pearls before swine denotes Gnosticism. Indeed, as the text was written down, it is something of a stretch to claim the knowledge is that hidden.

And you can also see the Gnostic cosmology and narrative in verses like verse 18:

The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?" Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.
Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

In Gnosticism, we all originally dwelt in the Pleroma, or the Divine Fullness. But after the fall of Sophia and the Demiurge's creation of the world using sparks and fragments of the light of the Pleroma (i.e. us), we became trapped in the world. And over time, we forgot our divine origins, and you basically have a situation like that of the Matrix, where this false world fashioned by the Demiurge keeps us imprisoned, and we are ignorant to the truth about this world and the true world (the Pleroma) beyond it. In Gnosticism, the goal is to return to the Pleroma, and reunite our divine sparks with the Father.

This is a huge stretch. Hellenic, Jewish, and Christian thought all teaches we come from God and that our end is God. How are these verses any different? To call them Gnostic is to call Christianity Gnostic.

The idea of our divine sparks becoming entrapped within this material realm fashioned by the Demiurge is clearly seen in verse 29:
Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels. Yet I marvel at how this great wealth has come to dwell in this poverty."

"This great wealth" refers to our spirits, and the divine spark within. "This poverty" refers to our physical bodies, and the physical world which they inhabit.

Again, this is a sentiment that can be seen throughout Hellenic, Jewish, and Christian thought. How it is unambiguously Gnostic is hard to see. What you'd have to show is that what is meant is the flesh is entirely evil, not, as Paul and others imply, that separated from the proper direction of the spirit it is a poverty.

The Gnostic concept of the Pleroma can be seen in verse 50, exactly as I have described it:
Jesus said, "If they say to you, 'Where have you come from?' say to them, 'We have come from the light, from the place where the light came into being by itself, established [itself], and appeared in their image.'
If they say to you, 'Is it you?' say, 'We are its children, and we are the chosen of the living Father.'
If they ask you, 'What is the evidence of your Father in you?' say to them, 'It is motion and rest.'

Again, there is nothing explicitly Gnostic, as opposed to Christian or Jewish or Hellenic about this verse. In fact, when it talks about image, it appears to be saying that man is made in God's image, which is not emphasised in much of what is called Gnosticism.

The idea that we are ignorant of the truth of this world can be seen in verses 28 and 56:

Jesus said, "I took my stand in the midst of the world, and in flesh I appeared to them. I found them all drunk, and I did not find any of them thirsty. My soul ached for the children of humanity, because they are blind in their hearts and do not see, for they came into the world empty, and they also seek to depart from the world empty. But meanwhile they are drunk. When they shake off their wine, then they will change their ways."

Jesus said, "Whoever has come to know the world has discovered a carcass, and whoever has discovered a carcass, of that person the world is not worthy."

How is this unambiguously Gnostic? The term world can have several meanings. It can mean the world cut off from God, its divine source, for example. What in this passage tells us this is not the meaning?

It does seem like you have a preconceived notion that this text must be Gnostic.

Also, it should be said that the idea of Gnosticism comes from the 17th century, and identifying a Gnostic movement is questionable.

 

[Desert Snake]

How is this unambiguously Gnostic?

It does seem like you have a preconceived notion that this text must be Gnostic.

Yes, exactly what I thought.

I'm not sure, though what else could it be, certainly seems to overreading meaning there, at least.