Appropriation and Generation

[Fireside_Hindu]

I suppose so, but can it be safety said that one is really *that* protective of their cultural identity when they generally don't really like partaking in the culture in the first place?

Again, this is only in my experience, but so many younger Indians often times say that they think their parent's faith is silly/stupid/superstitious or that western culture is superior; only showing pride around Diwali or when an "outsider" (ie: generally white Hindus) shows up to temple or cultural events. Even if they don't really care about it in the 1st place, it is the first defense to show how they are good Hindus by merely just being born one.

Again, just for the sake of discussion and in my experience. Nothing definitive, of course.

Also, related to this, a friend of mine linked me to this short article. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/anjali-joshi/why-a-bindi-is-not-an-exa_b_5150693.html

 

[Aupmanyav]

I suppose so, but can it be safety said that one is really *that* protective of their cultural identity when they generally don't really like partaking in the culture in the first place?

Again, this is only in my experience, but so many younger Indians often times say that they think their parent's faith is silly/stupid/superstitious or that western culture is superior; only showing pride around Diwali or when an "outsider" (ie: generally white Hindus) shows up to temple or cultural events. Even if they don't really care about it in the 1st place, it is the first defense to show how they are good Hindus by merely just being born one.

I do not think that such people care much about Hindu culture. As you have yourself said they think it is silly/stupid/superstitious (I wish these people talk to me so that I could clear their conceptions. Hinduism is the most scientific religion, it does not differ from science at all, at least that is my view). If the older people are superstitious, the young need not be. Perhaps those people did not have the advantage of studying science. Western culture may also have its good points. We can certainly accept such points (considering that Hinduism has always adapted and is not inimical to change). Being born as one does not give them any advantage, though it puts them under many obligations. And one of the obligations is not to deride the belief of others.

 

[DeviChaaya]

Thank you for the response. In your case, how do you feel about non-indians taking a strong interest in Indian culture beyond the academic? When you see Caucasian Aussies wearing bindis(or taking on other attributes) what is your gut reaction?

Gut reaction is honestly offended. And it takes a lot to offend me. But once I calm down I can shrug it off. Don't know about any other youngster.

As a white Australian Hindu, I enjoy wearing sari and bindi but I typically only do so when the occasion calls for it; if it is a festival day or I am going to temple. Mostly because I live in Melbourne and it's very cold a lot of the time! I have been in the tropics this last week and have worn sari twice while here and unlike at home I have not had a special reason besides the weather; this is the perfect place and time to wear a sari because this is the weather sari evolved in.

When the time comes to move to India you can bet your bottom dollar it's all I wear day in and out unless there is a specific reason to wear something else. I think the biggest thing here is that it is not done without knowledge of why you are doing it. If I wear tilak, either of kumkum or vibhuti, I know why I am wearing it and if I am asked I will explain it. One of the common questions where wearing the kumkum tilak is not so much a question as a statement 'you know that means you're married, right?'. I always take my time to explain that it is not the bindi that marks marriage but the red in the part of the hairline. And I should note it is never people of Indian heritage who come up to me to tell me I'm doing it wrong but people of Western heritage!

 

[Aupmanyav]

I see no reason why we should overlook the 'look-good' reason. That is not bad. Otherwise we all would be looking like Sikhs (please note, some of the sikhs even with their hair buns, beard and mustache, look very attractive). So bindi, henna, alta, etc. Not many Hindu men and women support combative feminism. We believe each has its own place in the family and the society.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Namaste,

I was linked to this interesting article discussing the difference in perception Indians have of westerners who adopt certain Indian cultural traditions depending on the generation they are in. I'd like to hear thoughts from Indians both young and old on this topic as I have been reading about it a lot lately.

http://www.xojane.com/issues/my-indian-parents-are-fans-of-cultural-appropriation

I will say it does help explain why sometimes Indians my age or younger tend to give me the cold shoulder at temple, whereas the older generation seems overly enthused to see me. Thoughts?

Namaste,

Me personally, I feel that when a non Indian first encounters Hinduism and Indian culture (Especially if they are from Abrahamic Backgrounds), they are more excited and intrigued at the new and somewhat vibrant tradition, something exotic that they get attracted to initially, sometimes its is something that they consider as not so serious or non intellectual or just fun, more freedom, no rules, no commandments, no sitting in Church every Sunday ect. And this fades, the feeling and sari and bindis ect become "not in Fashion", or just a chore. Many move on to other more exotic and rare cultures and traditions (Pagan, African ect) and Hinduism and Indian culture are put on the shelf as something sort of "Been there done that", experience. This when it happens and it does in many cases, discourages me from really trusting and appreciating a non Indian or non Hindu who shows interest in my tradition and Dharmah, unfortunately sometimes i even distrust the genuine people who have embraced Hinduism and take it seriously or are willing to actually have Shruddha in the Dharmah.

For me if a person is serious about the Dharmah, they don't have to change their external appearances but more to change the Internal self, wearing sari, eating chapatis are not a essential part of being Hindu.
Dhanyavad

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. discourages me from really trusting and appreciating a non Indian or non Hindu who shows interest in my tradition and Dharmah, unfortunately sometimes i even distrust the genuine people who have embraced Hinduism and take it seriously or are willing to actually have Shruddha in the Dharmah.

Why should it discourage you? It is simply that Hinduism was not for them and they were not for Hinduism. Wish them to fare well wherever they land up, except perhaps with IS..

 

[ShivaFan]

"... difference in perception Indians have of westerners who adopt certain Indian cultural traditions depending on the generation they are in"

I didn't read the article yet (catching up on things) but reading the OP, I understand what FH is saying about the younger generation giving a bit of cold-shoulder to Westerners, whatever, could be for that matter Africans or Japanese or Chinese etc. and even fellow Indians, who show interest, enthusiasm for or engagement with Indian culture or Hinduism.

I am a "Westerner" married to an Indian, my personal observation is - it also depends on "where you are at the moment", but there is some truth in her feeling.

For example, when I was in Canada recently, and doing some shopping at Indian shopping centers in Surrey (there is one HUGE one there with hundreds of stores and businesses in one giant center of new modern complex), with Indians at the time of shopping (not sure if that made a difference) all the "my generation" in age group never gave me a second look, I was even a favorite, customers were just wonderful to me, the "shop owners" gave me the same service as anyone else, etc..

The young, teens, in a CD shop (buying modern "pop" cds though in Hindi or Punjabi etc) be they Hindu or Sikh, were 50-50, some indeed were more cold. My distinct feeling is, while not fully "Westernized" into "Canadian culture (? is that the word)", still there was a feeling they wanted to project "not Indian".

Does "not Indian" sound strange? But that is the words that fit in my observation.

Hmmmm... so it wasn't so much "anti-ShivaFan" because I am "not an Indian" (like them), but more the teen saying "I might be Indian, but I am 'not Indian' so you should be on my side and be mean to those who like India" (sounds strange, but ....)

In the Hindu temple, teens were not so obvious about that as in the CD shops.

So for what it is worth, that is my observation in Canada. However, my observation in US is somewhat the same, but teens (of Indian background) as less so in the "not Indian"mode of projection, and instead "I am Indian and smarter than you" mode. Of which many are smarter than me.

 

[DeviChaaya]

Why should it discourage you? It is simply that Hinduism was not for them and they were not for Hinduism. Wish them to fare well wherever they land up, except perhaps with IS..

I think, Aup, it is more that there is this phenomenon amongst Westerners of religious tourism. As Satya said, they take it and try it and then, because they have tried it and it is no longer interesting, the put it aside. And it is discouraging and insulting, this pick and choose attitude that they have. Someone who is devoted, I think you can sense it, you can feel it by being in their presence, whether they're native Indian Hindus, age old converts (like the Balinese) or recent adoptees. I know when I first started on this path 10 years ago people said it was just a fad and I would get into Christianity in the future... but I am here still and I cannot see myself ever going back to a belief in an angry, hateful deity.

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

Woops, posted in the wrong thread. Post deleted =)

 

[Aupmanyav]

I know when I first started on this path 10 years ago people said it was just a fad and I would get into Christianity in the future .. but I am here still ..

You are one of us and we are glad to have you with us. May the mother shower you with happiness and health. The tourists came, had their fun and went away. I do not mind them.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Why should it discourage you? It is simply that Hinduism was not for them and they were not for Hinduism. Wish them to fare well wherever they land up, except perhaps with IS..

Namaste,

It is disrespectful because Indian culture and traditions and Hindu Dharmah in particular are treated like some kind of "fashion", that can be outdated, used and abused, but not considered as a serious and valid means of attaining more knowledge or having valid claims, or having actual contribution to the benefit of society and the world at large. Now this is obviously applicable to those who Jump and Change frequently, and not to the serious practitioner western or otherwise.

Dhanyavad.

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

I think, Aup, it is more that there is this phenomenon amongst Westerners of religious tourism. As Satya said, they take it and try it and then, because they have tried it and it is no longer interesting, the put it aside. And it is discouraging and insulting, this pick and choose attitude that they have. Someone who is devoted, I think you can sense it, you can feel it by being in their presence, whether they're native Indian Hindus, age old converts (like the Balinese) or recent adoptees. I know when I first started on this path 10 years ago people said it was just a fad and I would get into Christianity in the future... but I am here still and I cannot see myself ever going back to a belief in an angry, hateful deity.

Namaste,

Absolutely agree, you explained it better. Dhanyavad.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Now this is obviously applicable to those who Jump and Change frequently, and not to the serious practitioner western or otherwise.

What otherwise would the ignorants do? Their samskaras, education and experiences are like that..

 

[DeviChaaya]

You are one of us and we are glad to have you with us. May the mother shower you with happiness and health. The tourists came, had their fun and went away. I do not mind them.

Mata ji is ever merciful and ready to come when Her children call.

I believe the other problem with this spiritual tourism is that he tourists like to come back with souvenirs that they then claim have always been present, much like the Theosophical Society took many ideas from our Dharma and then twisted them about, ripped them of all context and said 'look, here, you can see it in the Bible. It has always been in the Bible.' This is what Rajiv Malhotra calls the U-turn theory.

Of course people may say Hindus stole Jesus or Mohamed (yick) but these two supposed god men are not stripped of their context or their relation to time. In many of the writings by people like Vivekananda and Kirpal Singh these men are placed firmly within their context and while certain qualities may be attributed to them they are not removed from their context. We do not say that Jesus was an incarnation of Krishna (not most of us anyway) and then try to place him somehow into a Hindu context whereas we see Christian appropriating yoga into 'Christian' yoga, devoid of its true meaning and purpose.

Basically all we are asking is that if this isn't for you please do not go and claim some aspect, like say ahimsa, as being espoused by Jesus because he didn't.

 

[Aupmanyav]

We do not say that Jesus was an incarnation of Krishna (not most of us anyway) and then try to place him somehow into a Hindu context whereas we see Christian appropriating yoga into 'Christian' yoga, devoid of its true meaning and purpose.

The evangelists use all strategies without unashamedly for conversions. They are not concerned about ethics.

 

[Kirran]

Certainly much of the efforts of the evangelists are inexcusable. But we must be aware of the distinction between that and genuine influencing of different traditions on one another.

 

[Aupmanyav]

IMHO, there is nothing in Abrahamic religions which should influence a Hindu, except for its falsehood and treachery..

 

[Kirran]

IMHO, there is nothing in Abrahamic religions which should influence a Hindu, except for its falsehood and treachery..

On the contrary, I find there to be much of great value in the writings of Christian mystics. Mysticism is generally in agreement, no matter what tradition it derives from, and so I do not see any clash between much of the teachings of Christian mystics like St. Anthony, St Francis of Assisi and Marie-Aimee de Jesus and those of many Hindu mystics like Shankara, Patanjali and Ramana.

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. and those of many Hindu mystics like Shankara, Patanjali and Ramana.

Wikipedia says that Patanjali's Yoga accepted only an inactive God. Sankara and Ramana were not mystics. They were scientists, they analysed existence of Gods/Self scientifically.

 

[Kirran]

Wikipedia says that Patanjali's Yoga accepted only an inactive God. Sankara and Ramana were not mystics. They were scientists, they analysed existence of Gods/Self scientifically.

Patanjali did not address that issue. It was irrelevant to his teaching.

As for Shankara and Ramana, they certainly attained unity with God through direct experience.