Archeaological evidence for the Bible

[Tiberius]

I wonder what would have happened in the Ark when Noah brought the termites on board.

They would have died.

Termites live in huge colonies numbering thousands of individuals. According to the instructions in the Bible, noah would have taken no more than 14 termites on the ark. 14 termites can't make a viable colony, and they would have died.

 

[Hope]

Please provide your examples of marine fossils found on mountaintops.

Also, please specify which ancient cultures you're talking about.


Since floods do happen, even major ones, I'd expect that there would be plenty of "the day the big flood hit" stories all over the world.

Ok, you asked for it.

I'll try to break these up, otherwise this post will be atrociously long.

Flood stories from ancient peoples around the globe:

Scandinavian:
Oden, Vili, and Ve fought and slew the great ice giant Ymir, and icy water from his wounds drowned most of the Rime Giants. The giant Bergelmir escaped, with his wife and children, on a boat made from a hollowed tree trunk. From them rose the race of frost ogres. Ymir's body became the world we live on. His blood became the oceans.

Celtic:
Heaven and Earth were great giants, and Heaven lay upon the Earth so that their children were crowded between them, and the children and their mother were unhappy in the darkness. The boldest of the sons led his brothers in cutting up Heaven into many pieces. From his skull they made the firmament. His spilling blood caused a great flood which killed all humans except a single pair, who were saved in a ship made by a beneficent Titan. The waters settled in hollows to become the oceans. The son who led in the mutilation of Heaven was a Titan and became their king, but the Titans and gods hated each other, and the king titan was driven from his throne by his son, who was born a god. That Titan at last went to the land of the departed. The Titan who built the ship, whom some consider to be the same as the king Titan, went there also.

Sumerian:
The gods had decided to destroy mankind. The god Enlil warned the priest-king Ziusudra ("Long of Life") of the coming flood by speaking to a wall while Ziusudra listened at the side. He was instructed to build a great ship and carry beasts and birds upon it. Violent winds came, and a flood of rain covered the earth for seven days and nights. Then Ziusudra opened a window in the large boat, allowing sunlight to enter, and he prostrated himself before the sun-god Utu. After landing, he sacrificed a sheep and an ox and bowed before Anu and Enlil. For protecting the animals and the seed of mankind, he was granted eternal life and taken to the country of Dilmun, where the sun rises.

Chaldean:
The god Chronos in a vision warned Xisuthrus, the tenth king of Babylon, of a flood coming on the fifteenth day of the month of Daesius. The god ordered him to write a history and bury it in Sippara, and told him to build and provision a vessel (5 stadia by 2 stadia) for himself, his friends and relations, and all kinds of animals. Xisuthrus asked where he should sail, and Chronos answered, "to the gods, but first pray for all good things to men." Xisuthrus built a ship five furlongs by two furlongs and loaded it as ordered. After the flood had come and abated somewhat, he sent out some birds, which returned. Later, he tried again, and the birds returned with mud on their feet. On the third trial, the birds didn't return. He saw that land had appeared above the waters, so he parted some seams of his ship, saw the shore, and drove his ship aground in the Corcyraean mountains in Armenia. He disembarked with his wife, daughter, and pilot, and offered sacrifices to the gods. Those four were translated to live with the gods. The others at first were grieved when they could not find the four, but they heard Xisuthrus' voice in the air telling them to be pious and to seek his writings at Sippara. Part of the ship remains to this day, and some people make charms from its bitumen.

 

[Hope]

Masai (East Africa):
Tumbainot, a righteous man, had a wife named Naipande and three sons, Oshomo, Bartimaro, and Barmao. When his brother Lengerni died, Tumbainot, according to custom, married the widow Nahaba-logunja, who bore him three more sons, but they argued about her refusal to give him a drink of milk in the evening, and she set up her own homestead. The world was heavily populated in those days, but the people were sinful and not mindful of God. However, they refrained from murder, until at last a man named Nambija hit another named Suage on the head. At this, God resolved to destroy mankind, except Tumbainot found grace in His eyes. God commanded Tumbainot to build an ark of wood and enter it with his two wives, six sons and their wives, and some of animals of every sort. When they were all aboard and provisioned, God caused a great long rain which caused a flood, and all other men and beasts drowned. The ark drifted for a long time, and provisions began to run low. The rain finally stopped, and Tumbainot let loose a dove to ascertain the state of the flood. The dove returned tired, so Tumbainot knew it had found no place to rest. Several days later, he loosed a vulture, but first he attached an arrow to one of its tail feathers so that, if the bird landed, the arrow would hook on something and be lost. The vulture returned that evening without the arrow, so Tumbainot reasoned that it must have landed on carrion, and that the flood was receding. When the water ran away, the ark grounded on the steppe, and its occupants disembarked. Tumbainot saw four rainbows, one in each quarter of the sky, signifying that God's wrath was over.

Kamar (Raipur District, Central India):
A boy and girl were born to the first man and woman. God sent a deluge to destroy a jackal which had angered him. The man and woman heard it coming, so they shut their children in a hollow piece of wood with provisions to last until the flood subsides. The deluge came, and everything on earth was drowned. After twelve years, God created two birds and sent them to see if the jackal had been drowned. They saw nothing but a floating log and, landing on it, heard the children inside, who were saying to each other that they had only three days of provisions left. The birds told God, who caused the flood to subside, took the children from the log, and heard their story. In due time they were married. God gave each of their children the name of a different caste, and all people are descended from them.

Lisu (northwest Yunnan, China, and neighboring areas):
After death came into the world as a result of a macaque's curse, sky and earth longed for human souls and bones. That is how the flood began. An orphaned brother and sister lived in squalor in a village. A pair of golden birds flew down to them one day, warned them that a huge wave would flood the earth, and told them to take shelter in a gourd and not to come out until they heard the birds again. The two children warned their neighbors, but the people didn't believe them. The children sawed off the top of a gourd and went inside. For ninety-nine days, there was no wind or rain, and the earth became parched. Then torrents of rain fell, and the resulting flood washed everything away. The brother and sister occasionally could hear the gourd bump against the bottom of heaven. After long waiting, they heard the birds calling, left the gourd, and found they had landed atop a mountain, and the flood had receded. But now there were nine suns and seven moons in the sky, and they scorched the earth during the day. The two golden birds returned with a golden hammer and silver tongs and instructed the children how to use them to get the dragon king's bow and arrows. Brother and sister went to the dragon pond and struck the reef-home of the dragon king with the hammer. This raised such a racket that the dragon king sent his servants (various fish) to investigate. The children grabbed the fish with the tongs and threw them on the bank. At last, the dragon king himself came to investigate and had to give his bow and arrows when he was likewise caught. With these, brother and sister shot down all but the brightest sun and moon. Brother and sister then went in search of other people, exploring north and south respectively. They found nobody else, and the golden birds appeared again and urged them to marry. They refused, but the birds told them it was the will of heaven. After divinations in the form of several improbable events (tortoise shells landing a certain way, a broken millstone came together, and the brother shooting an arrow through a needle's eye--all happening three times), they consented. They had six sons and six daughters which traveled different directions and became the ancestors of different races.

 

[Hope]

Maori (New Zealand):
Long ago, there were a great many different tribes, and they quarrelled and made war on each other. The worship of Tane, the creator, was being neglected and his doctrines denied. Two prophets, Para-whenua-mea and Tupu-nui-a-uta, taught the true doctrine about the separation of heaven and earth, but others just mocked them, and they became angry. So they built a large raft at the source of the Tohinga River, built a house on it, and provisioned it with fern-root, sweet potatoes, and dogs. Then they prayed for abundant rain to convince men of the power of Tane. Two men named Tiu and Reti, a woman named Wai-puna-hau, and other women also boarded the raft. Tiu was the priest on the raft, and he recited the prayers and incantations for rain. It rained hard for four or five days, until Tiu prayed for the rain to stop. But though the rain stopped, the waters still rose and bore the raft down the Tohinga river and onto the sea. In the eighth month, the waters began to thin; Tiu knew this by the signs of his staff. At last they landed at Hawaiki. The earth had been much changed by the flood, and the people on the raft were the only survivors. They worshipped Tane, Rangi (Heaven), Rehua, and all the gods, each at a separate alter. After making fire by friction, they made thanks-offerings of seaweed for their rescue. Today, only the chief priest may go to those holy spots.

Norton Sound Eskimo:
In the first days, the water from the sea came up and flooded all the earth except for a very high mountain in the middle. A few animals escaped to this mountain, and a few people survived in a boat, subsisting on fish. The people landed on the mountain as the water subsided and followed the retreating water to the coast. The animals also descended.

Tarascan (northern Michoacan, Mexico):
God ordered a man to build a large house and to put animals and food in it. When he had finished, it began to rain and continued raining for six months. The house floated on the flood, and all who had helped build it were saved in it. When the flood started going down, the man sent out a raven, but it stayed out to eat dead bodies. He next sent out a dove, which returned to tell what the raven was doing, and ravens have been cursed to eat carrion since. God ordered that no fires be kindled, but one man disobeyed and was turned into a dog.


Inca (Peru):
Pictorial records of ancient Incan rulers show that a flood rose above the highest mountains. All created things perished, except for a man and woman who floated in a box. When the flood subsided, the floating box was driven by the wind to Tiahuanacu, about 200 miles from Cuzco, where the Creator told them to dwell. The Creator molded new people from clay at Tiahuanacu. On each figure, the Creator painted dress and hair style, and he gave each nation distinctive language, songs, and seeds to plant. When he had brought them to life, he ordered them into the earth to travel underground and emerge from caves, springs, tree trunks, etc. in their various homes. He then created the sun, moon, and stars.

******

And these are just a few among hundreds more. If anyone would like to see the much more extensive list, go to: Flood Stories from Around the World

If you take the time to read the stories I've cited, you'll find that all of them have at least one or more elements contained in the Biblical story. Such as: a vessel of some sort, a family (or a couple people) seeking refuge in that vessel, animals in the vessel, mention of the flood reaching to the mountaintops, someone in the vessel sending out birds or other animals to ascertain if there is dry ground, the vessel coming to rest on a mountaintop, and even rainbows afterwards. Now, I will admit that a few stories could be in reference to local floods, but the likelihood that the majority of these stories would have these common elements and still be referring to local floods is so low as to be preposterous. Especially since these stories come from all parts of the globe. Even if one doesn't believe the Biblical version of the story is literal, one has to concede that widespread myths usually arise from some factual event, and in this case the factual event appears to be a worldwide flood.

 

[Buttercup]

That was very interesting, Hope. Thank you I enjoyed those.

The problem I have with the flood story is that God supposedly destroyed everyone on earth except for Noah and his family. That means innocent babies and children were put to death by the hand of God....if the story is to be taken literally. The matter of an actual world wide flood is secondary to me after that kind of sadistic behavior.

 

[Smoke]

Jericho was the first thing that sprang to my mind, but I see Angellous has already mentioned it. No comments on that?

If you take the time to read the stories I've cited, you'll find that all of them have at least one or more elements contained in the Biblical story. Such as: a vessel of some sort, a family (or a couple people) seeking refuge in that vessel, animals in the vessel, mention of the flood reaching to the mountaintops, someone in the vessel sending out birds or other animals to ascertain if there is dry ground, the vessel coming to rest on a mountaintop, and even rainbows afterwards. Now, I will admit that a few stories could be in reference to local floods, but the likelihood that the majority of these stories would have these common elements and still be referring to local floods is so low as to be preposterous.

On the contrary, it's hard to imagine a flood story that doesn't have at least one element in common with the story of Noah's flood. It would be surprising if flood legends didn't have elements in common.

As for plausibility, the story of Rapunzel has elements in common with the story of Sleeping Beauty and the story of Snow White, but that doesn't amount to evidence, much less proof, that the story of Rapunzel is factual.

The problem I have with the flood story is that God supposedly destroyed everyone on earth except for Noah and his family. That means innocent babies and children were put to death by the hand of God....if the story is to be taken literally. The matter of an actual world wide flood is secondary to me after that kind of sadistic behavior.

When I was a kid we had Bible story books with Dore engravings, so I was struck by the cruelty of the flood at an early age:

I always think of this bit in particular:

 

[Buttercup]

Is that the hand of Satan pulling that guy down?

I wasn't brought up in a religious household but I know my mother well enough that if we were shown these pictures while very young, she would have taken us out of Sunday School class without a doubt.

 

[Smoke]

Is that the hand of Satan pulling that guy down?

That's somebody trying to hold a baby up out of the water. I thought it was a really chilling image when I was little. Also, I felt really sorry for all the kids and tigers on that rock. My grandmother told me it wasn't literally true, just a local flood in Mesopotamia that got exaggerated in the telling, and that made me feel a little better, but I still thought it was a shocking story.

I wasn't brought up in a religious household but I know my mother well enough that if we were shown these pictures while very young, she would have taken us out of Sunday School class without a doubt.

Sunday School? We had this stuff at home. My mother might have objected to the nudity if it hadn't been a Bible story.

Sunday School was kinda PG too, though. Lots of violence.

 

[Buttercup]

That's somebody trying to hold a baby up out of the water.

Oh, to me it looks like the hand is on top of the body....as in pulling it down. Makes more sense the way you put it.

 

[yossarian22]

I always think of this bit in particular:

Jesus Christ, children were shown this?

And do people believe the Flood still?
WHY?
Just think about how much water it would take to cover the entire planet in a couple millimeters of water.

 

[Runt]

Jesus Christ, children were shown this?

And do people believe the Flood still?
WHY?
Just think about how much water it would take to cover the entire planet in a couple millimeters of water.

I have trouble understanding how individuals can simultaneously believe in the flood and believe in a benevolent God. These images and the story they depict sicken and anger me as an adult; they would have terrified and angered me as a child.

 

[Centi]

Jesus Christ, children were shown this?

And do people believe the Flood still?
WHY?
Just think about how much water it would take to cover the entire planet in a couple millimeters of water.

And even more interesting. Since the Earth is a closed system. Where did that water go when it no longer covered the entire planet?

 

[yossarian22]

I have trouble understanding how individuals can simultaneously believe in the flood and believe in a benevolent God. These images and the story they depict sicken and anger me as an adult; they would have terrified and angered me as a child.

I feel that if there was a god, it probably could bend space and time as easily as we manipulate metals. Why would it waste its time looking out our mundane lives?

 

[yossarian22]

And even more interesting. Since the Earth is closed system. Where did that water go when it no longer covered the entire planet?

The great Handkerchief in the Sky absorbed it.

I can never resist quoting the Hitchhiker's Guide

 

[Runt]

I feel that if there was a god, it probably could bend space and time as easily as we manipulate metals. Why would it waste its time looking out our mundane lives?

Looking out? I'm not entirely positive if you're saying God wouldn't look out for our lives or if you're saying God wouldn't waste time destroying our lives. If the latter, I agree. If the former... I wonder why a God who doesn't waste time looking out for us wastes time destroying us...

 

[yossarian22]

Looking out? I'm not entirely positive if you're saying God wouldn't look out for our lives or if you're saying God wouldn't waste time destroying our lives. If the latter, I agree. If the former... I wonder why a God who doesn't waste time looking out for us wastes time destroying us...

I believe both. If I had to pick a religion, it would be a Deist.

 

[Hope]

Jericho was the first thing that sprang to my mind, but I see Angellous has already mentioned it. No comments on that?

Not yet. I'll get there.....I'm concentrating on one thing at a time here.

On the contrary, it's hard to imagine a flood story that doesn't have at least one element in common with the story of Noah's flood. It would be surprising if flood legends didn't have elements in common.

As for plausibility, the story of Rapunzel has elements in common with the story of Sleeping Beauty and the story of Snow White, but that doesn't amount to evidence, much less proof, that the story of Rapunzel is factual.

I never understand how using modern (at least relatively speaking) fairy tales as proper analogies for ancient myths works. Besides what are the elements that these fairy tales have in common? Besides the very vague element of a damsel in distress? You'd have to be more specific.

The common elements of these flood stories are so specific as to make it unlikely someone just made it up and then passed it along to the rest of the human race. It is more farfetched to believe in that idea than to believe that perhaps there really was a worldwide flood, that wiped out all of the population on earth except one family, and when that family began to multiply after the flood, their descendants carried with them the basic story of the flood as they dispersed across the globe, and as each generation moved farther away from the actual event, the story got changed, except for its most basic, common elements.

 

[yossarian22]

The common elements of these flood stories are so specific as to make it unlikely someone just made it up and then passed it along to the rest of the human race. .

Now, do these floods all occur within the same time frame? As you go back down through history, your precision with dates drops exponentially. Besides, it was probably just a rainier then normal year blown out of proportion.

 

[Hope]

And even more interesting. Since the Earth is a closed system. Where did that water go when it no longer covered the entire planet?

Well, one thing you're not considering is the possibility that the world was very, very different before the flood. You're assuming that it looked not too different than it does today, with oceans and all. If you read some of the flood stories another very interesting common element emerges: they say that when the water receded, it formed the oceans. Wow. Think about that. I noticed in at least one of the stories a mention about water bursting forth from the ground. This is mentioned in the Bible as well. The Biblical story says the "fountains of the great deep burst open." In addition to the "floodgates of the sky," which was the rain, of course.

So try to think a little outside the box! What if there were no oceans prior to the flood? What if most of the water was underneath the ground? Then the water bursting out of the ground would make perfect sense. And when the water receded, it simply formed the oceans as we know them today. So the water was there all along. The Biblical story then makes perfect sense.

 

[Hope]

Now, do these floods all occur within the same time frame? As you go back down through history, your precision with dates drops exponentially.

Do you know of any other ancient myths that give dates?? This is a non-issue.

Besides, it was probably just a rainier then normal year blown out of proportion.

I don't know how you can read those stories and be intellectually honest enough with yourself to still believe that. But suit yourself. I presented the evidence....that's all I can do.