Archeaological evidence for the Bible

[yossarian22]

Hopefully it 'went' to a more appropriate thread since it has absolutely nothing to do with "Archaeological evidence for the Bible".

So?
Limiting the data to a specific group of evidence is idiotic and tends to skew the argument to one side. If somebody says the flood happened, I will show them any evidence that it did not.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So?
Limiting the data to a specific group of evidence is idiotic ...

Get over yourself.

 

[yossarian22]

Get over yourself.

I can't
My ego appears to be in the way.
I do suggest you take your own advice before giving it out though

 

[Hope]

That's an interesting and gross mischaracterization of a "non-believers" perspective.

Just what constitutes a myth?

"myth, noun.

1. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.

2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia.

3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.

4. A fictitious story, person, or thing"

How does this definition significantly differ from the unproven claims presented in the Bible?


Is there any "evidence" that you would accept as being irrevocably dispositive to the claims of the Bible? If so, what?

Wrong question. The burden of proof is utterly borne by the claimant, not by the defendant.

Can you point towards any specific archaeological discoveries that definitively contradict historical claims of Santa Claus? Which unearthed skeletons prove that fairies are real (or not)? Does the current lacking and evidential archaeological discoveries of mermaid bones (scales, or gills?) serve to solidify the claim of existent mermaids (or mermen)? How so?

Would you accept any "specific archaeological discoveries that definitively contradict the Bible" as compelling evidence?

EVER?

If so, please explain what would qualify as being "definitively contradictory"...in specific detail.

Who knows? Perhaps...if you were specific enough in detailing any qualifying evidence of "true" falsification" (of Biblical claims), someone just might "discover" what you're looking for...

S2a, thank you for pointing out my ignorance. I started this thread out of genuine curiosity....that is all. I do not make any claims to be an archeaological expert (never have), and I have learned quite a lot already from many who have posted in this thread. Their, and your knowledge, has humbled me, and challenged me to delve even deeper into this topic on my own. There is much for me to learn, and while I still believe in the historical validity of the Bible, and have presented what I think are some worthy opinions that should not be flippantly dismissed (as they have been), I admit my own limits when it comes to knowledge of archeaology.

So perhaps I will bow out of this thread until I have done more of my own research and study. I think archeaology is fascinating, and I look forward to being able to eventually come back and have better, more convincing answers.

In the meantime, have at it, guys.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

In the meantime, have at it, guys.

Do you happen to live close to a university library? A university - particularly a Christian-affiliated or seminary - should have archaeological reports for many sites related to the Bible. They should also have plenty of books and journals to help you interpret these reports. Look for the American Archaeological Society - they do holy sites in English... most of the holy land was excavated by Germans... and Americans aren't welcome because many of us are - well - evangelical wackos who don't do archaeology.

Also, there are many universities in the USA that have very active archaeology departments and you can keep up with their work by visiting their website - University of Chicago, U of Michigan, and Harvard.

Try the Biblical Archaeological Review - written for laymen... supplement that with the Biblical Theological Bulletin - also written for regular folks.

 

[joeboonda]

Really, why must I? Did someone die and put you in charge? Do you mean that you have some convincing evidence that will persuade me that this is the case? Just because we laugh at it doesn't mean it's the truth, however.
And we call these people, "creatinists." What we do know is that there is not enough water in the atmosphere, the oceans, and undergound, to cover the entire planet. Big oceans. Full of water. And there's still a mountain almost 3 miles high that would need to be covered. You know that scripture says that. Now show us that what scripture says is true. And all those poor geologists and paleontologists are just deluded by the veil of atheism. Don't just tell me that the Bible is right and true, persuade me. How do you know it's right and true? How do you know we're in the last days? All of the people who thought that for the last 2000 years were wrong, including Jesus. What can persuade me that you're the one who's right? Maybe your problem is that we're not dumb on purpose, we're smart on purpose. Persuade me otherwise. That would take facts, not preaching.

You are arguing with Peter. We understand the earth's topography was different before the flood. The fountains of the deep and the 'windows of heaven' were the sources of the water, (see link below) and to accomodate all of it after this cataclysmic event, the topography was significantly changed, great mountains and valleys in the deep accomodated the water. For a more in-depth look (if you are even willing) go here: Noah's Flood - Where did all that water come from? (also answers where it went)

I have no room here to provide all the evidence available to convince you the Bible is true. I have studied the evidence the earth presents and to me it is harmonious with the Great Flood of Noah. But not with evolution. When I was a young man of course I did not know what I know now. It took time to observe and study all these things. I chose NOT to be dumb on purpose, but to examine all the evidence from BOTH angles. Have you ever examined it from a Biblical pov? You mentioned something about Jesus being wrong about the last days. Today I was reading something interesting in Luke 17:

Then Jesus spoke to his disciples. "The time is coming," he said, "when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man. But you won't see it. 23 People will tell you, 'There he is!' Or, 'Here he is!' Don't go running off after them.

24 "When the Son of Man comes, he will be like the lightning. It flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other. 25 But first the Son of Man must suffer many things. He will not be accepted by the people of today. 26 "Remember how it was in the days of Noah. It will be the same when the Son of Man comes. 27 People were eating and drinking. They were getting married. They were giving their daughters to be married. They did all those things right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

The underlined jumped out at me. It seems Jesus was saying that people will long for or yearn earnestly to see his coming, but they won't see it. People will become so desperate they will even go after false Christs. It seems as if he were saying, hey, its gonna be a little while. Not so long as far as God is concerned, but perhaps long to us. Then he mentions Noah (and later Lot), how everything will go on as usual up to the time he returns. And so it has ever since the Deluge. Anyway I don't want to go any further off topic.

Peace,

Mike

 

[joeboonda]

For honest seekers:

General Flood topics

• Creation, Flood and coming fire
• Folded ferns
• Genesis and catastrophe (technical)
• GlobalFlood.org (Dr. John Baumgardner’s work)
• Hebrew scholar affirms that Genesis means what it says!
• Noah revisited
• Noah — The Man Who Trusted God
• The (second) greatest catastrophe of all time
• The Genesis Flood: Its Legacy Continues (Special Webcast with Dr John Whitcomb)
  
• The Flood and the Final Judgment, Part 1 (Special Webcast with Dr John Whitcomb)
  
• The Flood and the Final Judgment, Part 2 (Special Webcast with Dr John Whitcomb)
  
• Still searching for the truth (review of National Geographic Channel “Search for Noah’s Ark” special)
• Yes, Noah did build an Ark!

Does the Bible really claim that Noah’s Flood was global? How do creationists answer critics who claim that the biblical account of Noah’s Flood was merely localized, not worldwide?

• After devastation … the recovery
• The "bathtub" ark
• The battle for creation in our "conservative" seminaries
• Biblical evidence for the universality of the Genesis Flood (Technical, Origins 22(2):58–73, 1995)
• Can Flood Geology Explain Thick Chalk Layers? (Technical)
• Church leader ‘aghast’ at belief in a worldwide Flood?
• Did Noah’s Flood cover the whole earth?
• Does Scripture require a global Flood?
• Flood cuts off Europe
• Grand Canyon—what is the message?
• Ice cores vs the Flood (Technical)
• Noah’s Flood Covered the Whole Earth
• Problems with a Global Flood? (Semi-Technical, by AiG scientist, published on the True Origins site)
• Proof of Noah’s Flood at the Black Sea? What has Robert Ballard really found? (critique of Ballard, Pitman and Ryan’s fallacious identification)
• Seven reasons why we should not accept millions of years
• Six days or billions of years...Does it make any difference?
• Startling evidence for Noah’s Flood
• They can’t allow "it"!
• Two Fighting Dinosaurs?
• Warped earth
• Was Noah a Martian?

• See also Q&A: Geology
• See also Q&A: Fossils

Were the flood waters solely caused by rain, or something more? How could there be enough water to cover all the mountains? Was there a vapour canopy? What about catastrophic plate tectonics?

• Noah’s Flood — what about all that water?
• Noah’s Flood - Where did the water come from?
• Drowned from below
• Hypercanes: rainfall generators during the flood?
• See also Q&A: Plate Tectonics

What did Noah’s Ark look like? How did Noah and his family care for all the animals?

• See Q&A: Noah’s Ark

How could freshwater fish and land plants have survived a global flood?

• How did fish and plants survive the Genesis Flood? (includes fresh and salt-water survival) (available in Spanish)
• How could fish survive the Genesis Flood? (ICR Impact article)
• What happened to land plants during the Flood? (ICR Impact article)

Can an approximate date for Noah’s Flood be determined using the Bible?

• Creation Education: The Date of Noah’s Flood [Ed. note: Ussher calculated a slightly different date of 2348 BC]
• The World: Born in 4004 BC? (Ussher's date)

 

[joeboonda]

How do creation and global flood legends from different cultures compare to the biblical account?

• Australian Aboriginal Flood Stories
• Aboriginal Flood Legend
• The BIAMI Legends
• Choctaw origin legends (off-site)
• Choctaw flood legend, version 1 (off-site)
• Choctaw flood legend, version 2 (off-site)
• Choctaw legend: The Legend of Oklatabishi and the Oka Falamah (off-site)
• The Cosmological beliefs of the American Indians (ICR Impact article)
• Flood!
• The Flood of Noah and the flood of Gilgamesh (ICR Impact article)
• Genesis according to the Miao people (ICR Impact article)
• Genesis and ancient Near Eastern stories of Creation and the Flood: an introduction (Semi-Technical, Christian Answers Network)
• Grand Canyon Legend
• The Lamb of God hidden in Chinese characters (Semi-technical, 2.2 MB PDF)
• Maori memories of the Creator
• Noah’s Flood and the epic of Gilgamesh
• The Original ‘Unknown’ god of China
• What the Warlpiri Aborigines believe about the origin of everything
• A comparative study of the flood accounts in the Gilgamesh Epic and Genesis (Master’s thesis: Nozomi Osanai)

See also:

• Noah’s Ark Q&A
• Fossils Q&A
• Geology Q&A

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[angellous_evangellous]

You are arguing with Peter. We understand the earth's topography was different before the flood. The fountains of the deep and the 'windows of heaven' were the sources of the water, (see link below) and to accomodate all of it after this cataclysmic event, the topography was significantly changed, great mountains and valleys in the deep accomodated the water.

....

EDIT: Find a geologist who believes that, and I'll eat my shorts.

 

[joeboonda]

....

EDIT: Find a geologist who believes that, and I'll eat my shorts.

So you do not believe that through natural disasters like earthquakes, volcanos, floods, shifting of tectonic plates and fault-lines, etc. that the topography of the earth does not change??? Come on. You don't believe God can cause these things to occur? You have a small God, it would seem.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So you do not believe that through natural disasters like earthquakes, volcanos, floods, shifting of tectonic plates and fault-lines, etc. that the topography of the earth does not change??? Come on. You don't believe God can cause these things to occur?

You're confusing geologically proven causes for mythological ones. EDIT: We also know that both earthquakes and tectonic plates exist, but there is no evidence for a worldwide flood... claiming that the earth's topography changed so we can't prove it with geology is as sophomoric as it is illogical.

You have a small God, it would seem.

You can take that up with her any time you feel like it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Hope - are you more interested in Old Testament or New?

 

[joeboonda]

You're confusing geologically proven causes for mythological ones. EDIT: We also know that both earthquakes and tectonic plates exist, but there is no evidence for a worldwide flood... claiming that the earth's topography changed so we can't prove it with geology is as sophomoric as it is illogical.



You can take that up with her any time you feel like it.

No evidence for a worldwide flood? LOL! I just posted links to TONS of evidence, but whatever. I did not say it changed so we can't prove it, but it changed so we have the evidence right before us that does prove it.

Her??? That explains alot. Such foolishness. "Our Mother...er...Father which art in Heaven..."

 

[angellous_evangellous]

No evidence for a worldwide flood? LOL! I just posted links to TONS of evidence, but whatever.

How much of it came from the findings of peer-reviewed geologists?

I did not say it changed so we can't prove it, but it changed so we have the evidence right before us that does prove it.

Hmmmmm

Her??? That explains alot. Such foolishness. "Our Mother...er...Father which art in Heaven..."

 

[Hope]

Hope - are you more interested in Old Testament or New?

Mainly Old Testament, but I'd like to find out more in regards to New Testament too.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Mainly Old Testament, but I'd like to find out more in regards to New Testament too.

Old Testament archaeology has receieved more attention I think, particularly because the exile material (like Jeremiah) nicely parallels Near Eastern Archaeology. No similar evidence for anything before it - like Eden, the Flood, Babel, slavery in Egpypt and the Conquest. I bumped my thread on Near Eastern Archaeology...

Resources for Near Eastern/Biblical Archeology

 

[Autodidact]

You are arguing with Peter.

sorry, missed that.

We understand the earth's topography was different before the flood.

Actually, we don't understand that there ever was such a flood. At least, the world's geologists, meterologists, archeologists, and anthropologists don't. Are you trying to say that at one time the world was flat, so required less water to flood it?

The fountains of the deep and the 'windows of heaven' were the sources of the water, (see link below) and to accomodate all of it after this cataclysmic event, the topography was significantly changed, great mountains and valleys in the deep accomodated the water. For a more in-depth look (if you are even willing) go here: Noah's Flood - Where did all that water come from? (also answers where it went)

From your cite:

So, the ‘fountains of the great deep’ are probably oceanic or possibly subterranean sources of water.

Pretty vague. But, in any case, scientists know how much oceanic + subterranean water there is, and it's not near enough. As for the windows of heaven, after rejecting the "water vapor canopy" (good to see this absurdity bite the dust) it says only:

Nevertheless, whatever the source or mechanism, the scriptural statement about the windows of heaven opening is an apt description of global torrential rain.

But rain, of course, comes from the same source, the oceans. So, once again, after reviewing your cite, we see that there just plain isn't enough water on earth to cover it with water. Can't happen. Physically impossible. Nix.

I have no room here to provide all the evidence available to convince you the Bible is true.

Just pick out your top 3.

I have studied the evidence the earth presents and to me it is harmonious with the Great Flood of Noah.

Of course, all the geologists, all the paleontologists, all the meteorologists, all the historians and all the anthropologists disagree with you, but I'm sure Some Anonymous Guy on the internet is a better source for me to rely on.

But not with evolution.

Funny that the entire science of biology disagrees with you, though.

When I was a young man of course I did not know what I know now. It took time to observe and study all these things. I chose NOT to be dumb on purpose, but to examine all the evidence from BOTH angles. Have you ever examined it from a Biblical pov?

I don't know about the biblical point of view, and exactly how that differs from an evidentiary or scientific point of view, but yes, I'm quite familiar with what the Bible says on the subject, as well as the meager and unpersuasive evidence in favor of it being literally true. It clearly isn't, however.

 

[Autodidact]

Hey, joeboonda, what year did this flood happen?

 

[joeboonda]

Hey, joeboonda, what year did this flood happen?

Why? You don't even believe it happened. Many good scientists believe it did, many don't, depends on how one looks at the evidence I suppose. I am quite convinced that it happened just as Genesis says, Jesus is convinced, too along with many, many other great and learned and Godly men and women.

 

[camanintx]

I have no room here to provide all the evidence available to convince you the Bible is true. I have studied the evidence the earth presents and to me it is harmonious with the Great Flood of Noah. But not with evolution.

It always amazes me when someone believes that the 8000 kinds of animals Noah saved in a flood 4,000 years ago can develop into the 10 million species that exist today and yet claim that the Theory of Evolution is wrong.