Are animals conscious? Sentient?

[Debater Slayer]

Or flat out not eating them.

Of course, that is a position that many people adopt due to recognition of animals' capacity to suffer, and I see a lot of merit to it. I personally think it is more feasible for the time being to push for more humane treatment of animals even when they're eaten, because I don't think it is realistic to expect meat eating to disappear anytime soon. More humane farming conditions would still widely and significantly reduce suffering even if meat were still commonly eaten.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Of course, that is a position that many people adopt due to recognition of animals' capacity to suffer, and I see a lot of merit to it. I personally think it is more feasible for the time being to push for more humane treatment of animals even when they're eaten, because I don't think it is realistic to expect meat eating to disappear anytime soon. More humane farming conditions would still widely and significantly reduce suffering even if meat were still commonly eaten.

While the "more humane farming conditions" is a step, imagine if we had adopted this mindset and taken this approach with the abolition of slavery.

 

[Debater Slayer]

While the "more humane farming conditions" is a step, imagine if we had taken this approach with the abolition of slavery.

I don't think the comparison fully applies to this scenario, because I believe that, for various reasons, humans will always give preferential treatment to members of their own species in at least some contexts. This is not to say it is right or wrong to do so; just that it will always be the case.

Even most vegans and vegetarians do that. If someone told you that they killed a fly today and another told you that they killed a human, which would you be more likely to befriend or accompany anywhere? Would a law treating the killing of a fish with the same seriousness as the killing of a human be fair or realistic?

 

[SalixIncendium]

I don't think the comparison fully applies to this scenario, because I believe that, for various reasons, humans will always give preferential treatment to members of their own species in at least some contexts. This is not to say it is right or wrong to do so; just that it will always be the case.

I'm confused about where you the comparison doesn't fully apply. Are you refuting that there was a time that masters didn't consider their slaves inferior and treat them as animals?

Even most vegans and vegetarians do that. If someone told you that they killed a fly today and another told you that they killed a human, which would you be more likely to befriend or accompany anywhere?

It's a bit unfair to make such an extreme comparison, but I don't make it a point to befriend or accompany anyone that kills any animal indiscriminately.

Why don't we start with a comparison of human and chimpanzee instead. Would you be likely to befriend someone who killed a chimpanzee today and accompany them anywhere?

Would a law treating the killing of a fish with the same seriousness as the killing of a human be fair or realistic?

Again, an extreme comparison, but I suppose I should appreciate your not using the fly again as an example. I'll just point out that we've made laws against killing chimpanzees. We've also made laws about puppy mills.

I'll just point out here now that I'm not expecting everyone to adopt my mindset straight away, but I do take exception to it being said that it's not realistic for meat eating to disappear anytime soon. To me, it's just making an excuse for things not to change because it's just what people do, and we can't expect people to inconvenience themselves. Such attitudes delay or hinder any change. I go back to my previous post and the slavery example. The problem is complacency.

 

[bobhikes]

"Scientists push new paradigm of animal consciousness, saying even insects may be sentient

....All three of these discoveries came in the last five years — indications that the more scientists test animals, the more they find that many species may have inner lives and be sentient. A surprising range of creatures have shown evidence of conscious thought or experience, including insects, fish and some crustaceans. "

Scientists push new paradigm of animal consciousness, saying even insects may be sentient

Far more animals than previously thought likely have consciousness, top scientists say in a new declaration — including fish, lobsters and octopus.

www.nbcnews.com

Yes, and even plants, all life has a form of consciousness, intelligence had to start with life or life would never have been able to flourish.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Yes, animals are conscious and sentient. If I am to assume other human beings are based on my observations of their behavior, I may as well assume the same of animals.

 

[idea]

While this is undoubtedly true, and while it is always helpful imo for us to remember that we are animals, we are nevertheless an exceptional species in every way.

Physically, being weak, slow, awkward on land and worse in water, we’re not particularly well equipped to survive at all. Yet we have populated every surface of the globe.

It may not be consciousness which sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom, much less setting us above it, but something in the nature of our mind does; and in becoming creatures of thought and of intellect, it’s possible that we have lost as much as we have gained; which, it seems to me, is the true meaning of the story of Adam and Eve’s expulsion from the garden.

Here us one line of thought - perhaps, just perhaps..

Once upon a time, a long time ago, two friends found the alpha in their herd to be unreasonable and led astray, often putting the group in danger. Previously the alpha was always the strongest individual in the pack, but the two friends started realizing the importance of brain over brawn. How could the alpha be replaced? Using their brains they found where two or three were gathered together, united they were stronger than the individual. How to unite? And thus, perhaps, language was born, politics, new social rules where perhaps - just perhaps - kindness, understanding, the ability to listen was valued above strength...

The rabbits - cute little fuzzy vegetarians, they have survived too. Quite a few species out there have survived by just having lots of kids, and knowing how to avoid trouble.

 

[Pogo]

Here us one line of thought - perhaps, just perhaps..

Once upon a time, a long time ago, two friends found the alpha in their herd to be unreasonable and led astray, often putting the group in danger. Previously the alpha was always the strongest individual in the pack, but the two friends started realizing the importance of brain over brawn. How could the alpha be replaced? Using their brains they found where two or three were gathered together, united they were stronger than the individual. How to unite? And thus, perhaps, language was born, politics, new social rules where perhaps - just perhaps - kindness, understanding, the ability to listen was valued above strength...

The rabbits - cute little fuzzy vegetarians, they have survived too. Quite a few species out there have survived by just having lots of kids, and knowing how to avoid trouble.

Playing while reading this.

 

[The Hammer]

Yes of course they are sentient and conscious. Aka aware. Everything is. Including plants.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

what definition of sentience is being used ? - awareness - response to stimulus -- didn't know this was in doubt for insects ... I can see for trees having some doubt .. we have reponse to stimulus but is a tree really aware ?

This is a really good question that I've run into a number of times in my life. For example, as an ardent Trekkie, I see sentience as not just consciousness, but self awareness i.e. that Data is a sentient being even though he is non-organic. But I have some wonderful Chinese vegetarian friends who say that all animal life is sentient and seem to use the word as a synonym with conscious. I am not sure why they draw the line there and don't include plants.

I think in the case of this article, they appear to be using sentient as a synonym for conscious, but you are correct that they don't take the time to define what they mean.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

An octopus could solve a puzzle more quickly than your average MAGA, but then that is a pretty low bar.

LOL, cute.

 

[Eddi]

Animals are obviously conscious and sentient

Have you never been lovingly licked by a dog?

 

[Secret Chief]

Animals are obviously conscious and sentient

Have you never been lovingly licked by a dog?

I sometimes think that people who doubt such have never had a non-human companion, or if they did, they didn't endeavour to have the kind of relationship that can so easily flourish in such circumstances.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Maybe the best way to look at it is that humans are barely sentient at all, and the other animals are less so.

 

[Sargonski]

This is a really good question that I've run into a number of times in my life. For example, as an ardent Trekkie, I see sentience as not just consciousness, but self awareness i.e. that Data is a sentient being even though he is non-organic. But I have some wonderful Chinese vegetarian friends who say that all animal life is sentient and seem to use the word as a synonym with conscious. I am not sure why they draw the line there and don't include plants.

I think in the case of this article, they appear to be using sentient as a synonym for conscious, but you are correct that they don't take the time to define what they mean.

Yes .. exactly -- they do not define what they mean .. because they are not Subject Matter Experts ! .. no subject matter expert would have such a title .. and not define the main term of contention. .. right .. and in fact no descent scientist is going to do this either.

I agree sentience must include Self Awareness. .. again to the realm of Philosophy "I think therefor I Am" . and with it a delicious pun on the phrase "I AM" - having obvious religious connection to God YHWH .. and his "I AM" moment .. his "Who AM I moment .. or Who I Am"

Now .. once we have defined what the hell we are talking about .. I can put off my Philosophers cap and put on my thick Science Guy Glasses (true life story -- me in grade 2 ) . and try to measure this thing !

In order to have the "I AM" moment - as discussed previously .. you need the physical capacity .. the wiring of the Brain must be sufficiently complete. What is interesting .. is if you are watching on an EEG when this happens through the whole 21 weeks prior .. not much is going on.. nothing resembling brain waves .. nothing resembling much at all happening. Then .. all of a sudden .. when the wiring is complete the light switch is flipped on .. and the brain lights up like a xmas tree. Prior .. lights are off .. . no one home.. after ---- badda boom .. the I AM is in the room.

Clearly higher order animals are self aware .. to what level .. is where things difficult .. but certainly they have reaction to stimulus and it is a conscious reaction ... pavlov's dogs .. if they got shocked by the electric fence they will avoid a future encounter.

is the healing process of a tree when cut .. the same kind of thing .. where there was an actual awareness of event and a response. .. we got the response .. but linking it to awareness is difficult .. but we could call this a very dim primordial awareness .. greater than that of a Rock.

Now .. interesting that you brought up the frutopians ! (only that which falls from the Tree) ... one of the interesting things about our Creator .. is that She created us in such a way as to have to kill life in order to Live ... ponder that footprint in the sand for a moment The Kingons would understand immediately

 

[Eddi]

Maybe the best way to look at it is that humans are barely sentient at all, and the other animals are less so.

Are there really degrees of sentience though????

Surely you either have it or you don't?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Are there really degrees of sentience though????

Surely you either have it or you don't?

Yes there have to be, because otherwise there is no such thing as sentience.

 

[Eddi]

Yes there have to be, because otherwise there is no such thing as sentience.

I don't get your reasoning here

Either you can experience stimuli/qualia or you cannot

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Are there really degrees of sentience though????

Yes. It exists on a spectrum. A microbe is more conscious than a rock. A fish is more conscious than a microbe. a capuchin monkey is more conscious than a fish. And a human is more conscious than a monkey.

This would have to be the case, since sentience is a product of evolution, and so would have evolved very slowly.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I don't get your reasoning here

Either you can experience stimuli/qualia or you cannot

Compare our eyesight to the sight of a horseshoe crab, whose eyes only see light and dark, and it cannot distinguish colors or detailed images.

And I would like to also comment that self awareness is also a higher form of consciousness.