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Are Atheists racist?

idea

Question Everything
"The Descent of Man" talks of savages, and a belief that black people are more primitive than white people.

The Racism of Charles Darwin

The Racism of Charles Darwin
A Compendium of Quotes
By Ryan Thoryk
Original textual analysis by James M. Foard, From The Nebulous Hypothesis: A Study of the Philosophical and Historical Implications of Darwinian Theory
Beginning of 1st chapter
-proposing the idea that there are variants of man
"He who wishes to decide whether man is the modified descendant of some pre-existing form, would probably first enquire whether man varies, however slightly, in bodily structure and in mental faculties; and if so, whether the variations are transmitted to his offspring in accordance with the laws which prevail with the lower animals."
Origin of Man, final paragraph of the Instinct chapter
-stating that the strongest in a species live, and the weakest die
"Finally, it may not be a logical deduction, but to my imagination it is far more satisfactory to look at such instincts as the young cuckoo ejecting its foster-brothers, ants making slaves, the larvae of ichneumonidae feeding within the live bodies of caterpillars, not as specially endowed or created instincts, but as small consequences of one general law leading to the advancement of all organic beings--namely, multiply, vary, let the strongest live and the weakest die."
First page, 1st chapter
-states that the variants could possibly be complete sub-species, not just variants
"It might also naturally be enquired whether man, like so many other animals, has given rise to varieties and sub-races, differing but slightly from each other, or to races differing so much that they must be classed as doubtful species?"
First page, 1st chapter
-wonders if a "race war" would be beneficial to mankind
"The enquirer would next come to the important point, whether man tends to increase at so rapid a rate, as to lead to occasional severe struggles for existence; and consequently to beneficial variations, whether in body or mind, being preserved, and injurious ones eliminated. Do the races or species of men, whichever term may be applied, encroach on and replace one another, so that some finally become extinct?"
1st page, 1st chapter
-answers YES to the previous question
"We shall see that all these questions, as indeed is obvious in respect to most of them, must be answered in the affirmative, in the same manner as with the lower animals."
Descent of Man, Chapter Six: On the Affinities and Genealogy of Man, On the Birthplace and Antiquity of Man
-dreams of a future for mankind when the black races of man, as well as the mountain gorilla of Africa, will hopefully become extinct, thus enhancing the chances for the evolutionary advancement of the more "civilized" races of man
-also states that both blacks and Aborigines occupy a sub-species between white Caucasians and Baboons
-he did not observe that they were "endangered species", he encouraged extinction
"At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked, will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the Negro or Australian and the gorilla."
Chapter 7
-states that he will describe the differences between the sub-species (races) of man
"It is not my intention here to describe the several so-called races of men; but I am about to inquire what is the value of the differences between them under a classificatory point of view, and how they have originated."
-then gives opinions from both sides of the debate
Descent, Chapter 7, p.347, Benton Edition
-likens the terms "sub-species" and "race"
"Some naturalists have lately employed the term "sub-species" to designate forms which possess many of the characteristics of true species, but which hardly deserve so high a rank. Now if we reflect on the weighty arguments above given, for raising the races of man to the dignity of species, and the insuperable difficulties on the other side in defining them, it seems that the term "sub-species" might here be used with propriety. But from long habit the term "race" will perhaps always be employed. The choice of terms is only so far important in that it is desirable to use, as far as possible, the same terms for the same degrees of difference."
Descent, Chapter Seven: On the Races of Man: Sub-species
-refers to races as sub-species, and explains why they should be sub-species and not full species.
"In a series of forms graduating insensibly from some ape-like creature to man as he now exists, it would be impossible to fix on any definite point when the term "man" ought to be used. But this is a matter of very little importance. So again, it is almost a matter of indifference whether the so-called races of man are thus designated, or are ranked as species or sub-species; but the latter term appears the more appropriate."
Descent, Chapter Seven: On the Races of Man, pp.343
-differentiates between the different "races" and claims that some have different mental capabilities than others
"The races differ also in constitution, in acclimatization and in liability to certain diseases. Their mental characteristics are likewise very distinct; chiefly as it would appear in their emotional, but partly in their intellectual faculties."
Descent, Chapter Five: On the Development of the Intellectual and Moral Faculties During Primeval and Civilized Times: Natural selection as affecting civilized nations.
-shows that his racist viewpoint of non-Aryan races to include even the Irish
"A most important obstacle in civilized countries to an increase in the number of men of a superior class has been strongly insisted on by Mr. Greg and Mr. Galton, namely, the fact that the very poor and reckless, who are often degraded by vice, almost invariably marry early, whilst the careful and frugal, who are generally otherwise virtuous, marry late in life, so that they may be able to support themselves and their children in comfort. . .Those who marry early produce within a given period not only a greater number of generations, but, as shown by Dr. Duncan they produce many more children. Thus the reckless, degraded, and often vicious members of society, tend to increase at a quicker rate than the provident and generally virtuous members. Or as Mr. Greg puts the case: 'The careless, squalid, unaspiring Irishman multiplies like rabbits..."
Descent, ibid.
-claims that none of the European nations owe their "superiority" to Greek ancestry
"The western nations of Europe, who now so immeasurably surpass their former savage progenitors, and stand at the summit of civilization, owe little or none of their superiority to direct inheritance from the old Greeks", to whom he referred in a quote from Greg as "'corrupt to the very core.'"
Chapter Seven of the Descent, On the Races of Man: On the Extinction of the Races of Man
 
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idea

Question Everything
-explains what happens when primitive cultures come in contact with more "advanced" nations
"the partial or complete extinction of many races of man is historically known . . . Extinction follows chiefly from the competition of tribe with tribe, and race with race . . .the contest is soon settled by war, slaughter, cannibalism, slavery, and absorption . . .when civilized nations come into contact with barbarians the struggle is short, except where a deadly climate gives its aid to the native race."
ibid.
-states that it would be very good if wealthy nations replaces the less privileged races in his above quoted power struggle
"but the inheritance of property by itself is very far from an evil; for without the accumulation of capital the arts could not progress; and it is chiefly through their power that the civilized races have extended, and are now everywhere extending their range, so as to take the place of the lower races."
comparison with 10th chapter of hitler’s mein kampf:
"man must realize that a fundamental law of necessity reigns throughout the whole realm of nature and that his existence is subject to the law of eternal struggle and strife . . .where the strong are always the masters of the weak and where those subject to such laws must obey them or be destroyed, one general law leading to the advancement of all organic beings . . . Let the strongest live and the weakest die."
another comparison; speech by adolf hitler, 4/13/23 in munich:
" so the strength which each people possesses decides the day. Always before god and the world the stronger has the right to carry through what he wills. History proves: He who has not the strength - him the 'right in itself' profits not a whit. A world court without a world police would be a joke. And from what nations of the present league of nations would then this force be recruited? Perhaps from the ranks of the old german army? the whole world of nature is a mighty struggle between strength and weakness - an eternal victory of the strong over the weak. There would be nothing but decay in the whole of nature if this were not so. states which should offend against the elementary law would fall into decay. You need not seek for long to find an example of such mortal decay: You can see it in the reich of today...."
comparison of nuremberg law with darwinian principles:
"law for the protection of hereditary health: The attempt to improve the german aryan breed."
article 1, section 1: "anyone who suffers from an inheritable disease may be surgically sterilized if, in the judgement of medical science, it could be expected that his descendants will suffer from serious inherited mental or physical defects."
article 1, section ii: "anyone who suffers from one of the following is to be regarded as inheritable diseased within the meaning of this law:
1. Congenital feeble-mindedness
2. Schizophrenia
3. Manic-depression
4. Congenital epilepsy
5. Inheritable st. Vitus dance (huntington's chorea)
6. Hereditary blindness
7. Hereditary deafness
8. Serious inheritable malformations"
article ii section 1: ""anyone who requests sterilization is entitled to it. If he be incapacitated or under a guardian because of low state of mental health or not yet 18 years of age, his legal guardian is empowered to make the request. In other cases of limited capacity the request must receive the approval of the legal representative. If a person be of age and has a nurse, the latter's consent is required."
darwin, descent of man, conclusion
"man scans with scrupulous care the character and pedigree of his horses, cattle, and dogs before he matches them; but when he comes to his own marriage he rarely, or never, takes any such care. . .yet he might by selection do something not only for the bodily constitution and frame of his offspring, but for their intellectual and moral qualities. Both sexes ought to refrain from marriage if they are in any marked degree inferior in body or mind; but such hopes are utopian and will never be even partially realized until the laws of inheritance are thoroughly known. Everyone does good service, who aids towards this end. When the principles of breeding and inheritance are better understood, we shall not hear ignorant members of our legislature rejecting with scorn a plan for ascertaining whether or not consanguineous marriages are injurious to man. . . .the advancement of the welfare of mankind is a most intricate problem: All ought to refrain from marriage who cannot avoid abject poverty for their children; for poverty is not only a great evil, but tends to its own increase by leading to recklessness in marriage. On the other hand, as mr. Galton has remarked, if the prudent avoid marriage, whilst the reckless marry, the inferior members tend to supplant the better members of society. Man, like every other animal, has no doubt advanced to his present high condition through a struggle for existence consequent on his rapid multiplication; and if he is to advance still higher, it is to be feared that he must remain subject to a severe struggle. Otherwise he would sink into indolence, and the more gifted men would not be more successful in the battle of life than the less gifted. Hence our natural rate of increase, though leading to many and obvious evils, must not be greatly diminished by any means. There should be open competition for all men; and the most able should not be prevented by laws or customs from succeeding best and rearing the largest number of offspring."
descent of man, chapter five, on the development of the intellectual and moral faculties during primeval and civilized times: Natural selection as affecting civilized nations.
"i have hitherto only considered the advancement of man from a semi-human condition to that of the modern savage. But some remarks on the action of natural selection on civilized nations may be worth adding . . . With savages, the weak in body or mind are soon eliminated; and those that survive commonly exhibit a vigorous state of health. We civilized men, on the other hand, do our utmost to check the process of elimination; we build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed, and the sick; we institute poor-laws; and our medical men exert their utmost skill to save the life of every one to the last moment. There is reason to believe that vaccination has preserved thousands, who from a weak constitution would formerly have succumbed to small-pox. Thus the weak members of civilized societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed. . . .the surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could only be for a contingent benefit, with an overwhelming present evil. We must therefore bear the undoubtedly bad effects of the weak surviving and propagating their kind; but there appears to be at least one check in steady action, namely that the weaker and inferior members of society do not marry so freely as the sound; and this check might be indefinitely increased by the weak in body or mind refraining from marriage, though this is more to be hoped for than expected "
darwin on christianity (the autobiography of charles darwin, edited by nora barlow, w.w. Norton and co., new york, london, 1958.):
"from its manifestly false history of the earth...and from its attributing to god the feelings of a revengeful tyrant, was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the hindoos, or the beliefs of any barbarian."
"[i can not see how] anyone ought to wish christianity to be true; for if so, the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my father, brother and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished. and this is a damnable doctrine."
comparison with hitler: From hitler's secret conversations, october 10, 1941
"christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical conclusion, christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."
carl marx on darwin (communist manifesto dedication)
"darwin's book is very important and serves me as a basis in natural science for the class struggle."
excerpt about social darwinism from darwin by adrian desmond and james moore:
"‘social darwinism’ is often taken to be something extraneous (to darwin’s theory), an ugly concretion added to the pure darwinian corpus after the event, tarnishing darwin’s image. But his notebooks make plain that competition, free trade, imperialism, racial extermination, and sexual inequality were written into the equation from the start -‘darwinism’ was always intended to explain society."




:( ....
 

idea

Question Everything
cont...
Darwin’s primary racist viewpoints summed up:

  1. [*]Humans are divided into sub-species
    [*]The strongest live and the weakest die, which is good (Hitler and Marx agreed)
    [*]The sub-species are not simply variants
    [*]A "race war" would be beneficial to mankind
    [*]Blacks and Aborigines occupy a sub-species between Apes and Caucasians
    [*]The extinction of blacks and gorillas to advance the white "race" is good
    [*]Sub-species are also known as races
    [*]Different sub-species have different characteristics, such as mental capabilities
    [*]Irish are also non-Aryan and should be extinct
    [*]Europe doesn’t owe any ancestry to the Greeks
    [*]It would be good if a wealthy nation replaces a less privileged race
    [*]Christianity is a damnable doctrine, and Hitler agreed saying it is a rebellion against nature
    [*]Social Darwinism includes imperialism, racial extermination and sexual inequality and Darwinism was intended to explain society as a whole
    [*]"lower class" races should not normally be cared for; they should not multiply and should become extinct

:run:
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
You know, considering the time Darwin lived in, it wouldn´t surprise me if he had racist tendencies, just like about everyone else had back then. But that does most definatly not make us atheists to racists.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
sorry... perhaps I should not have asked "are Atheists racists" as all atheists are not follow Darwinism.
Atheists Against Darwinism - Evangelical Philosophical Society

( I think most do though - seeings how Darwin's B-day is their Christmas )
Friendly Atheist by @hemantmehta » Celebrate Charles Darwin’s Birthday in Rhode Island)
Did not read those links really, it is late and I hate to read long texts, but it seems to talk about ID. I don´t know much about ID, but if they mean that there exist a creator, a deity, then those people that believe in it are by definition not atheists.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Are atheists racist?
Your proof consists of racist statements made by Darwin. Nevermind the fact that atheists aren't the only people who believe in evolution. Nevermind that people who believe in evolution don't take anything and everything Darwin ever said as untouchable fact. Nevermind the fact that the development of evolutionary theory didn't end with the last word in the Origin of Species, but that scientific research continues to expand and modify on the theory of evolution.

Nah. It's easier just to jump straight to the conclusion that atheists are racists.
 
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idea

Question Everything
Did not read those links really, it is late and I hate to read long texts, but it seems to talk about ID. I don´t know much about ID, but if they mean that there exist a creator, a deity, then those people that believe in it are by definition not atheists.

quotes are taken out of "The Descent of Man", not an ID book :rolleyes:
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
quotes are taken out of "The Descent of Man", not an ID book :rolleyes:
Well, it mentioned it at the top... I have this issue with reading long texts, they become so long that I loose concentration... and yes, I have a medical diagnosis to blame :p.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
sorry, I should have named the thread "Are those who believe in evolution racist"
Which they are not. Racism is about morality and prejudice against other humans, the ToE is a scientific theory of how species evolve, there is a world of difference.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I believe in Newtonian physics. I believe that gravity exists. Isaac Newton believed in God. Therefore, I must believe in God.

That takes about the same form as your op. Do you see the problem?
 

idea

Question Everything
Nevermind that people who believe in evolution don't take anything and everything Darwin ever said as untouchable fact.

So... you are telling me that people who believe in evolution alter/base their beliefs on what is PC? I know a few Christians who have changed their beliefs to be "PC" too...
:shrug:
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
I believe in Newtonian physics. I believe that gravity exists. Isaac Newton believed in God. Therefore, I must believe in God.

That takes about the same form as your op. Do you see the problem?
Issac Newton was probably also a racist, I might add.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
So... you are telling me that people who believe in evolution alter/base their beliefs on what is PC? I know a few Christians who have changed their beliefs to be "PC" too...
:shrug:
Evolution is not a belief system. It cannot be compared.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
Darwin was no more racist than any one else who lived 150 years ago.

Compare the "racist" comments Darwin made to Abraham Lincoln.

"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything."
Abraham Lincoln

This is, by today's moral standards, overtly racist and appalling. But considering the historical context, Lincoln could be said to be a morally superior and progressive man. By todays standards, everyone who lived more than 100 years ago would be racist or morally corrupt, but that line of thinking would be flawwed if they were not put into the proper historical context.


Oh and FYI, Darwin isn't nearly as important to atheists as christians think, nor is evolution, it is just one small piece in a very large puzzle, Darwin and evolution are only on the pedestal that they stand because creationists and fundamentalist christians put them there. Atheists aren't worshipping darwin or evolution, we are just defending a scientific fact and its discoverer from ignorance.
 

idea

Question Everything
I believe in Newtonian physics. I believe that gravity exists. Isaac Newton believed in God. Therefore, I must believe in God.

That takes about the same form as your op. Do you see the problem?

Darwin's racist beliefs were rooted in evolution. It would be like saying
Newton believed in Gravity - and Newton believed in F = ma
and then saying "I don't have to believe in gravity if I believe F=ma" The two are related to one another.

Do you see the problem?
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
So... you are telling me that people who believe in evolution alter/base their beliefs on what is PC? I know a few Christians who have changed their beliefs to be "PC" too...
:shrug:
No. I am saying that the racism incoorporated in Darwin's theory of the evolution of man has not been supported by current scientific research. It is a faulty aspect of the theory of evolution that has been rectified. Why should we continue to believe that which has been disproven?
 

idea

Question Everything
Darwin was no more racist than any one else who lived 150 years ago.

Scientists are not supposed to worry about what is "PC" they are supposed to publish based on data. Or am I mistaken in thinking this?

I guess "science" is not all data and proofs...
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
Scientists are not supposed to worry about what is "PC" they are supposed to publish based on data. Or am I mistaken in thinking this?

I guess "science" is not all data and proofs...
It is. Since when did PC have anything to do with this? The ToE is one of the best proved theories of all time. The political standpoints of Charles Darwin, who created the foundation but didn´t develop the theory we have today, are irrelevant to that. As I said erlier, racism has to do with morality, the ToE is a scientific theory about how species evolve. See the difference?
 
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