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Are Atheists racist?

idea

Question Everything
Ideas been paying far too much attention to Ben Stein.
:areyoucra

LOL! I was reading about an atheist who converted to Christianity after being upset with racism in evolution... can't find the article I was reading...

here it is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._N._Wilson

A.N. Wilson (an Oxford educated writer who returned to Christian faith in 2009 after two decades of atheism[7]) revealing his doubts about evolution in response to a question posed in the New Statesman about whether one can 'love God and agree with Darwin':
I think you can love God and agree with the author of The Voyage of the Beagle, the Earth Worm, and most of the Origin of Species. The Descent of Man, with its talk of savages, its belief that black people are more primitive than white people, and much nonsense besides, is an offence to the intelligence - and is obviously incompatible with Christianity. I think the jury is out about whether the theory of Natural selection, as defined by neo-Darwinians is true, and whether serious scientific doubts, as expressed in a new book Why Us by James Le Fanu, deserve to be taken seriously. For example, does the discovery of the complex structure of DNA and the growth in knowledge in genetics require a rethink of Darwinian 'gradualism'. But these are scientific rather than religious questions.[8]

In Why Us? How Science Rediscovered the Mystery of Ourselves (Harper Press, 2009) James Le Fanu[9], an apparently agnostic physician and writer[10], contends:
The Ascent of Man from knuckle-walking chimp to upright human seems . . . almost self-evident, yet it conceals events that are without precedent in the whole of biology . . . This discrepancy between the beguiling simplicities of evolutionary theory and the profundity of the biological phenomena it seems to explain is very striking . . . Here the greatest virtue of Darwin's proposed mechanism, its simplicity, might seem its greatest drawback – that it is far too simple to begin to account for the complexities of life . . . There is . . . more than enough evidence already to suspect that Darwin was less right than is commonly perceived.[11]

I agree - evolution " is far too simple to begin to account for the complexities of life "

People are more than genes/DNA.

Who here is going to argue with me that humans are not more than genes/DNA - that part of us we do not inherit from our parents?
(PS - many religious people call the part that is not inherited our Spirit... It's why kids and their parents are different, why people should not be categorized based on their genetic make-up.)
 
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McBell

Unbound
Been there done that, start another thread if you want to go there.
What?
Start another thread?
Seems to me that by applying the same "logic" as is used in the OP, all Mormons must be racist because Brigham Young was a racist....


though something tells me that you will completely disagree with that line of "reasoning"
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Clearly those who follow evolution see some on a higher wrung on the evolutionary ladder than others.

This comment shows your ignorance about evolution. There is no ladder of "better" or "higher" species. It is more of a web. Each species exists because it was able to survive in some niche. A human is no better than a humingbird. The humingbird is exquistely evolved to suck nectar from flowers. We have evolved amazing brain power and hands to provide us our food. We each have evolved to suit our environment. The pinnacle of evolution is not Man; the purpose of evolution is not higher intelligence. Evolution has no purpose. It is simply the mechanism by which species adapt to their environments and become better fitted to their way of life.

Some are "older"... some are "newer and more evolved".
according to those who follow evolution.

Of course some species have come later than others. Some species can hang out for hundreds of thousands of years because they are so perfectly adapted to their environments. Other species experience more pressure from their environments, and therefore are more likely to evolve into new species. Think of Darwin's finches stuck on the Galapagos Islands.

More evolved does not mean "higher" in the sense you are using it. It simply means that there were steps A, B, C, D, E, F, and G before it got to the point it is now. Other species might have stopped at step B.

The point with humans is that science has shown that all humans are on step "M" or what have you. Caucasians are not at step "N", and Africans are not at step "L". We are all on step "M".
 

Amill

Apikoros
There are monkeys alive today. There are single celled organisms alive today. They have all had an "equal amount of time to evolve" so we must be on the same level as single celled organisms - we are just diversified - is that your argument?

Clearly those who follow evolution see some on a higher wrung on the evolutionary ladder than others.

So what if there are monkeys alive today? There are also mammals alive today, and Chordates, no?

What are we basing these levels on? Every living organism today has a lineage that has gone for the same amount of time. I would say that there are levels of complexity, but to me, implying that some species or lineages are more evolved over another, means that they have had some sort of advantage over those others, which can't be the case because we all exist today. We can only speculate that there are advantages that will affect the future and survivability of lineages. But I would definitely say that there are organisms that have more complex systems than others.

It's not like Africans today are more closely related to the first homo sapiens. We've all descended from that ancestor for the same amount of time and generations.
 
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Kerr

Well-Known Member
Call it race, or ethnicity, or subgroups of people, or whatever term you would like to use. The point is, those who believe in evolution are categorizing people according to the makeup of their genes - the color of their skin, the color of their eyes, their height, etc. etc.

I for one think this is the wrong way to categorize people.
You know it is very arrogant of you to tell me how I categorize people. Especially since of you and me, I am the one who actually know me.
 

McBell

Unbound
You know it is very arrogant of you to tell me how I categorize people. Especially since of you and me, I am the one who actually know me.
but it is so much easier to "win" if you tell your opposition where they stand on the issues.
 

idea

Question Everything
You know it is very arrogant of you to tell me how I categorize people. Especially since of you and me, I am the one who actually know me.

Tell me, how do you categorize people then? That is, scientifically, as you like to use the scientific meathod.

All of the evolution papers that I have seen categorize people based on skin color, eye color, etc. etc. Show me an evolution paper that does not do this.

do you agree that people are more than their DNA makeup? I hope so.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Call it race, or ethnicity, or subgroups of people, or whatever term you would like to use. The point is, those who believe in evolution are categorizing people according to the makeup of their genes - the color of their skin, the color of their eyes, their height, etc. etc.

I for one think this is the wrong way to categorize people.
So you agree that "race" is not a scientific term? I just have to ask since you conveniently ignored that half of my post.

As for your comment, it is not racist simply to categorize people. It is racist to use those categories to then subjugate one group of people. It is racist to claim that one group is inferior to another.

I mean, come on. It's not racist to note that an African American has brown skin. It's a fact. It's no different than me noting that this particular gentleman also has brown eyes. It's only racist if I react negatively towards him simply because he has brown skin. Surely you see the difference.
 

idea

Question Everything
It's not like Africans today are more closely related to the first homo sapiens.
That is exactly what evolutionists are saying, that Africans today are more closely related to the first homosapiens. This is a very racist way to look at people, don't you think?
 

Amill

Apikoros
Call it race, or ethnicity, or subgroups of people, or whatever term you would like to use. The point is, those who believe in evolution are categorizing people according to the makeup of their genes - the color of their skin, the color of their eyes, their height, etc. etc.

I for one think this is the wrong way to categorize people.

So it's wrong to categorize anything? I guess we can't call people American, Irish, or Japanese either? Is it wrong to distinguish differences between different species of animals too? I guess we can just call all organisms "life" if we want to avoid categorizing things based on their differences and similarities.

And why is it racist to distinguish differences? So what? What does it have to do with treatment of people of different races and lineages?
 

idea

Question Everything
It's only racist if I react negatively towards him simply because he has brown skin. Surely you see the difference.

The negative part comes when some are deemed more closely related to monkeys than others.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
That is exactly what evolutionists are saying, that Africans today are more closely related to the first homosapiens. This is a very racist way to look at people, don't you think?
How so? The first homosapiens were exactly what we are. Homosapiens.

The prevailing theory is that our species originated in Africa. So it would make sense that Africans would constitute one of the oldest populations of our species.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
Tell me, how do you categorize people then? That is, scientifically, as you like to use the scientific meathod.

All of the evolution papers that I have seen categorize people based on skin color, eye color, etc. etc. Show me an evolution paper that does not do this.

do you agree that people are more than their DNA makeup? I hope so.
I categorize people not based on evolution, that is for sure. And why do you think I care about your genes when I determine what kind of a person you are? I couldn´t care less... and I do "believe" in evolution. There is nothing strange about it, evolution simply has nothing what so ever to do with morality or human worth, and I have yet to meet anyone that I can remember that believes in evolution and think that races are different in morality and human worth.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
Tell me, how do you categorize people then? That is, scientifically, as you like to use the scientific meathod.

All of the evolution papers that I have seen categorize people based on skin color, eye color, etc. etc. Show me an evolution paper that does not do this.

do you agree that people are more than their DNA makeup? I hope so.
I hate to get personal, but.... why do you throw rocks at us when you are not much better then what you claim us to be?
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
The negative part comes when some are deemed more closely related to monkeys than others.
See my previous post for further comment.

This is like claiming that it is racist to say that your grandma is your ancestor because it technically means she is more closely related to apes (note: apes) than you are. Afterall, you are further down the evolutionary gene pool than she is.

Also note that the article is NOT saying that they are more closely related to apes than non-Africans are.
Analogy time: Say you have a square. You elongate two of the sides and make a rectangle. Then you photocopy your new rectangle and make lots and lots of copies. Is your first rectangle more closely related to the square than any of the copies? Does your first rectangle have more "squareness" in it than the rest of the rectangle copies?
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by idea
Clearly those who follow evolution see some on a higher wrung on the evolutionary ladder than others.


Wrong again. A fundamental aspect of evolution is that there are no wrungs on the ladder to climb. When a species evolves it doesn't advance or regress, it just changes. The changes aren't good or bad, a change might give a small advantage to one species over another in a certain situation but at the same time the change could seriously cripple the species in a different situation. No ladder to climb in evolution, just change.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Race is a very scientific term.
Uh... what? Why do you say this, idea?

According to Yale University's Jonathan Marks, writing for "The American Behavioral Scientist": "The scientific study of human biological variation has consistently produced knowledge that contradicts widespread cultural, or folk, wisdom. Although people and the populations they belong to certainly differ from one another, they do not appear to do so in such a manner that permits the identification of a small number of human subspecies or races. Classification of people into races involves cultural, not biological knowledge; and race is inherited according to cultural rules that stand in opposition to biology. Thus, race is not a useful biological concept."
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
The negative part comes when some are deemed more closely related to monkeys than others.
The ironic part is that this statement can be viewed as racistic. If some people are more related to monkeys then others, does that deminish them? Does that change who they are or take away any human worth of them? Does it tell who they are? As the non-racist I am I couldn´t care less of how close you are related to monkeys.
 
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