Are Atheists racist?

[McBell]

So idea, are ou actually going to acknowledge my post or are you content with merely ignoring what you dislike?

 

[idea]

So... you mean I am not shaped by nature?

Some people are slaves to nature/nurture.

Others rise above it.

"Forces beyond your control can take away everything you possess except one thing, your freedom to choose how you will respond to the situation."
— Viktor E. Frankl

Some respond well in the harshest of conditions... others do not. Same family, same environment... one brother fights for the North, the other for the South in the Civil war... Obviously, we are more than genes/environment.

 

[Kerr]

You believe that who we are comes from our genes and our environment and thatis it? So... if a baby is born to murderers, raised in the Bronx, would you see them only as a product of their genes/environment?

Here is someone who had a rough start, came from questionable lineage...
YouTube - Imagine Spot 1 - Rejected by NBC and CNN
what do you think of them?

I believe our genes tell us where we start, that is it. The environment does the rest. There is no "only" or "less" about it, we are who we are, no matter if there is a spirit or not. This does not make me a racist, because I do not judge people based on things like genes, what group of people they belong to or how they where raised. I judge depending on who they are, or at last I try to (no one is perfect).

The same cannot be said about you, which is why I advice you to stop throwing rocks on us when you are at least as dirty yourself.

 

[idea]

Atheism is defined as the lack of belief in deities. Spirits are not deities, so you can be an atheist and believe in spirits. Fact is, you can be religious and an atheist.

That's cool. Is this what you believe?

Even Atheists Go To (Insert Afterlife Here) | Wired Science | Wired.com

anything like the above?

 

[Kerr]

Some people are slaves to nature/nurture.

Others rise above it.

"Forces beyond your control can take away everything you possess except one thing, your freedom to choose how you will respond to the situation."
— Viktor E. Frankl

Some respond well in the harshest of conditions... others do not. Same family, same environment... one brother fights for the North, the other for the South in the Civil war... Obviously, we are more than genes/environment.

Ever considered that some people may have, in lack of better words, "stronger genes", making them more resistant to harsher situations then other? Or that someone can learn to be strong? Or both?

And if you claim I am a slave, that just proves you know nothing about me or my struggles in life.

 

[Kerr]

That's cool. Is this what you believe?

Even Atheists Go To (Insert Afterlife Here) | Wired Science | Wired.com

anything like the above?

I don´t believe in anything supernatural or any afterlife. But that is irrelevant to the definition of atheism. I am non-religious and an atheist. Some people are religious and atheists... have heard Bhuddism is this way, but do not take my word for it.

 

[idea]

I believe our genes tell us where we start, that is it. The environment does the rest.

Genes and environment are not things that a child can choose for themselves...
It takes personal accountability out of the pict to say "I am this way because that is how I was raised, those are my genes" - it is the excuse made by weak people who make victims of themselves.

In your mind, what differentiates those who rise above what they are given (genes/environment) and those who do not?

drunken hillbilly vs.
G. Washington - "by 21, with only a few months of formal education, he could ford rivers, chart mountains, charm legislators, and lead troops. Lord Fairfax wrote his mother that he was, “a man who will go to school all his life.” Washington’s classrooms were the forest, the battlefield, and the halls of government. He never asked what was going to be in the final."

 

[Kerr]

Genes and environment are not things that a child can choose for themselves...
It takes personal accountability out of the pict to say "I am this way because that is how I was raised, those are my genes" - it is the excuse made by weak people who make victims of themselves.

Only if used as a justification. I don´t justify serial killers, but I understand why they do the things they do. Understanding something and justifying it are two different things.

In your mind, what differentiates those who rise above what they are given (genes/environment) and those who do not?

G. Washington - "by 21, with only a few months of formal education, he could ford rivers, chart mountains, charm legislators, and lead troops. Lord Fairfax wrote his mother that he was, “a man who will go to school all his life.” Washington’s classrooms were the forest, the battlefield, and the halls of government. He never asked what was going to be in the final."

Who do you contradict yourself?

And to answer your question, I don´t care about a difference in words, I know it when I see it. Like people with ADHD who manages to turn their disability into a strength.

 

[idea]

Ever considered that some people may have, in lack of better words, "stronger genes", making them more resistant to harsher situations then other? Or that someone can learn to be strong? Or both?

And if you claim I am a slave, that just proves you know nothing about me or my struggles in life.

"some people" not "you".

stronger genes? Here is where things get scary to me - as science advances, and the degree to which genes are considered to be "strong" is more easily measured... Have you watched the movie Gattaca? What's to stop someone from taking a blood sample, slapping you with a lable, and then saying, "it's not personal, it's science." ??? Would you be OK with people doing that in the future?

 

[idea]

Only if used as a justification. I don´t justify serial killers, but I understand why they do the things they do. Understanding something and justifying it are two different things.

So... would you "understand" a serial killer's actions based on their genes/environment? Not justifying it, it is wrong, but would you say the cause is their genes/environment vs. the cause being their spirit/will/mind - their own personal choice which they should be held accountable for?

Like people with ADHD who manages to turn their disability into a strength.

exactly - people rise above (or fall below) their genes/environment all the time... IMO that means there is something more there - we are not a product of our genes/environment. There is more to us than genes/environment.

 

[Kerr]

"some people" not "you".

stronger genes? Here is where things get scary to me - as science advances, and the degree to which genes are considered to be "strong" is more easily measured... Have you watched the movie Gattaca? What's to stop someone from taking a blood sample, slapping you with a lable, and then saying, "it's not personal, it's science." ??? Would you be OK with people doing that in the future?

It is not scary, and as I said, it was a poor choice of words. Personally, I have "weak" genes. Have fought my entire life against that, I of all people know that our genes do not define us. Nor would I ever wish we could choose or select what genes we have... if that movie was about something like that, then I am against it.

 

[Kerr]

So... would you "understand" a cerial killer's actions based on their genes/environment? Not justifying it, it is wrong, but would you say the cause is their genes/environment vs. the cause being their spirit/will/mind - their own personal choice which they should be held accountable for?

People still have free will.

exactly - people rise above (or fall below) their genes/environment all the time... IMO that means there is something more there - we are not a product of our genes/environment. There is more to us than genes/environment.

Which is a very naive way to look at it. My mother is a school nurse who has worked with children for about 20 years, she always told me it was the children that came from messy homes that where, well, messy. The environment does shape us, it is a simple matter of cause and effect. You treat someone monsterous, you are likely to get a monster. That does in no way justify when the monster goes on a killing spree, but it say one obvious thing... don´t be abusive to your children, because you will hurt them on one level or another.

But that does not mean we cannot decide what we do or decide to change. The brain is a very complicated thing, and just because we are our brain and our brain is based in biology does not mean we do not have free will.

 

[gnomon]

Well, I'm a believer in reincarnation now.

idea is the reincarnation of VellumCodex. Who was thoroughly slammed here as well.

Now, let us peruse the thread.

 

[Magic Man]

Why did you people keep this going for 10 pages? This thread should have lasted all of 2-3 posts, those being the originals by idea.

 

[idea]

People still have free will.....the children that came from messy homes that where, well, messy. ....

not always. that is the point, children who came from messy homes are not always messy... those who come from neat and tidy homes are not always neat and tidy.

My mother in law was horribly abused, as was her sister. Her sister's home is a place of yelling and shouting - a replay of what they had growing up. My mother in law is 180° different, decided she would not repeat what she went through.

You believe in free will? Is there really such a thing as free will if all your actions are controlled by nature/nurture?

Free will means actions are not just reaction... If it is all reactions (react to environment, react from genetic programs) then there is no free will.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace's_demon
LaPlace's demon rules in a universe where actions are a product of nature/nurture. Free will means the cause/effect determinism chain is broken somewhere.

If you see that the cause/effect chain is broken, what breaks it?

 

[freethinker44]

Why did you people keep this going for 10 pages? This thread should have lasted all of 2-3 posts, those being the originals by idea.

Something ridiculous is deserving of ridicule.

For an idea to live on it either needs to be really great or really stupid, and I am guessing there is only one person around here who will defend the "greatness" of the OP.

 

[Autodidact]

What twisted crap.
[FONT=arial,helvetica][Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]"There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." Rev. Alexander Campbell[/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica]"The hope of civilization itself hangs on the defeat of Negro suffrage." A statement by a prominent 19th-century southern Presbyterian pastor, cited by Rev. Jack Rogers, moderator of the Presbyterian Church (USA).[/FONT] [FONT=arial,helvetica]"The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined." United States Senator James Henry Hammond. 3[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]"The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina[/FONT]

Oh wait, you're LDS, right?

(1848 - 1877) BRIGHAM YOUNG 2nd Prophet and President​

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable, sad, low in their habits, wild, and seemingly without the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."


(1901 - 1918) JOSEPH FIELDING SMITH 10th Prophet and President

"I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. "Darkies" are wonderful people, and they have their place in our church."
"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race.
"... and they have been 'despised among all people.' This doctrine did not originate with President Brigham Young but was taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith ..."


BRUCE R. McCONKIE of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles

The negroes are not equal with other races when the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned..."​

...As a result of his rebellion, Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the negroes"​

"Cain Ham, and the whole negro race have _ cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry."

MARK E. PETERSON of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles​

"At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the negroes we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that He placed a dark skin upon them as a curse - as a punishment and as a sign to all others.
" If there is one drop of negro blood in my children, as I have read to you, they receive the curse, There isn't any argument, therefore, as to intermarriage with the Negro, is there? "Now we are generous with the Negro. We are willing that the Negro have the highest kind of education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it.


Well, I really don't have time to collect a fraction of the enormously rich Mormon racist literature.

​

​

 

[idea]

Yep – when you can’t say anything to defend yourselves, try and belittle the matter by laughing and name calling.

Don’t’ worry, I can easily ignore childish taunts from those who are unable to present an answer for where free will comes from, or why we should not judge others based on their nature/nurture.

Auto is viewing the thread... I'll have to come back tomorrow... or the day after... well... we'll see when I next get a free second.

read ya later ppl.

Oh - I am reporting people who are derailing the thread.

"you kill people"
"Oh yea? well you kill people too"

the "you kill people too" argument does not make the original claim of "you kill people" void.

there are other threads for other racist issues. Use those. not this one.

 

[Autodidact]

Darwin's racist beliefs were rooted in evolution. It would be like saying
Newton believed in Gravity - and Newton believed in F = ma
and then saying "I don't have to believe in gravity if I believe F=ma" The two are related to one another.

Do you see the problem?

Kinda like the way anti-semitism is rooted in Christianity?

Give it up, idea, it's a bogus argument and you don't know what you're talking about.

btw, do you have the remotest interest in learning what ToE has actually taught us about race?

 

[gnomon]

Oh - I am reporting people who are derailing the thread.

"you kill people"
"Oh yea? well you kill people too"

the "you kill people too" argument does not make the original claim of "you kill people" void.

there are other threads for other racist issues. Use those. not this one.

Report away.

This is an utterly retarded thread.

Might as well make some constructive use of it by starting some hullabaloo.

Simply put, no one has actually proved that Darwin was a racist.
Second, even if he was a racist Darwin was the leader of nothing.
Third, people who accept evolutionary theory, which includes religious and non-religious individuals, are not followers of Darwin or have really anything to do with him at all.
Fourth, individuals invoking that people who believe in evolutionary theory are racists based on the misconception of others is a fool.

So that's all there is to note of any import.