Heyo
Veteran Member
That's right, but people who realize that their belief is unfalsifiable also rarely deduce any entitlements from their belief.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Are Believers Delusional?
- Thread starter Heyo
- Start date
I wouldn't say that any of those examples you gave are necessarily delusional, just poorly reasoned conclusions.
OTOH, "God speaks to me" or " (insert thing that happened) was a miracle by God in answer to my prayer" would suggest delusion, IMO.
I don't think one could expand the definition of delusion to include all of the abovementioned religious beliefs without diluting the clinical definition of "delusion." A subset of beliefs, religious or not, could fall within the category of delusions, but I would argue that most don't.
For every example below, I can think of more than one secular equivalent:
"We shall conquer that land to spread democracy and freedom."
"We shall conquer that land to work toward international communism/socialism."
"We shall conquer that land to install a government loyal to our geopolitical and economic interests."
If the above are not delusional beliefs, then neither is the religiously motivated counterpart.
I haven't seen anyone argue for religious tax exemption using this logic, but there are still secular equivalents:
"We deserve tax exemption [or extreme reduction] because we are entrepreneurs who generate wealth for the economy."
"We deserve tax exemption [or extreme reduction] because our taxes will go to lazy people."
"We deserve tax exemption [or extreme reduction] because our taxes will go to illegal immigrants."
"Refugees should be profiled, but not people of my race/ethnicity."
"Our Western/Arab culture must be protected from those foreigners [even when there is no demonstrable threat]."
"Western values must be promoted and spread worldwide."
Utopian goals rooted in ideology are not uniquely religious either:
"You should vote for me because socialism/communism will resolve inequality and poverty."
"You should vote for me because I will end terror."
"You should vote for me because I will protect our culture and values."
"You should vote for me because I represent the people rather than the elite."
Not necessarily, at least not in a clinical sense. They just have an entitled mentality.
Rational Agnostic
Well-Known Member
I agree. Although I'm not a mental health professional, I hypothesize that the need for certainty and unshakeable faith in religious beliefs and any other beliefs is actually a form of obsessive compulsive disorder, since most if not all OCD obsessions and rituals are based on a need for certainty in an uncertain world. Especially when you consider that most religious services involve irrational, repetitive rituals that have to be performed in the same way over and over again, such as bowing in unison and reciting prayers/creeds in the exact same cadence and at the exact same time in each service.
PureX
Veteran Member
We humans don't deal with uncertainty well, ... understandably. As we cannot control what we cannot anticipate. And we are a species given to fantasy and delusion easily. We will often accept the pretense of knowing in leu of actual knowing just to feel in control.
And in some ways this is good for us as it gives us the courage to keep moving and advancing in spite of our unknowing. But in some ways it can also be disastrous as we can so easily fool ourselves into taking actions that will be disastrous for us thinking that we "know" it won't be.
Belief is a double-edged sword.
Last edited:
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th Edition (DSM-5) defines delusions as fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence.
Based on this definition, I would say everyone is Delusional for everyone has fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change. They just ignore the conflicting evidence. In most cases it is insignificant stuff they believe so they are let alone to believe it. Some examples my grandmother put pennies on every window New's Year Eve or the year would be very bad, my wife believes slugs and worms are dangerous and kills them on site, I know several people that keep all their money in cash as banks are bad or the government is tracking them. I'm sure everyone on this site can tell stories of friend or family member that in private everyone jokes about their weird belief but still accept them even though they tried millions of times to correct said belief.
Based on this definition, I would say everyone is Delusional for everyone has fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change. They just ignore the conflicting evidence. In most cases it is insignificant stuff they believe so they are let alone to believe it. Some examples my grandmother put pennies on every window New's Year Eve or the year would be very bad, my wife believes slugs and worms are dangerous and kills them on site, I know several people that keep all their money in cash as banks are bad or the government is tracking them. I'm sure everyone on this site can tell stories of friend or family member that in private everyone jokes about their weird belief but still accept them even though they tried millions of times to correct said belief.
Apologies, Heyo: I missed one in your OP that sounds like it would be a delusion:
It would depend on what the person in the example actually meant, but I think that "I got called by my god to run for office" probably goes well beyond just having ideals.
Being "called by God" would be more analogous to, for instance someone saying "I was visited by the ghost of Abraham Lincoln / Karl Marx / Ronald Reagan / whoever in a dream and they told me to run for office."
It would depend on what the person in the example actually meant, but I think that "I got called by my god to run for office" probably goes well beyond just having ideals.
Being "called by God" would be more analogous to, for instance someone saying "I was visited by the ghost of Abraham Lincoln / Karl Marx / Ronald Reagan / whoever in a dream and they told me to run for office."
Heyo
Veteran Member
A mental disorder (delusion) is only seen as pathological if the patient is suffering or is a danger to others or himself.
I.e. religiously induced delusions of entitlement would only be worthy of treatment if it comes together with violence or threats of violence - or if the patient can convince others of his entitlement by other ways.
PureX
Veteran Member
I agree. But we should keep in mind that there are many kinds of delusional belief, not just religious.
True. However, it does seem that religion can mask mental illness when it does happen.
When someone starts showing symptoms of, say, schizophrenia, this can be harder to spot if they're using the terminology of their religion to describe what they're going through, especially if what they're saying is in the normal range of discourse for the congregation.
PureX
Veteran Member
I don't think that's what most people mean by being "called" (by God) to do something like run for office. What they mean is that they feel an internal conviction to do it, and they interpret that as being a divine spiritual calling. It's not much different than someone feeling morally compelled to run, or even politically compelled to run.
We don't need to presume every religious person is seeing ghosts or hearing messages. Most are just people the same as anyone else that carry and express themselves in a more spiritual way. They are no more delusional than any of the rest of us are.
This.
Crap like this is why I responded as I did in this thread here -
Crap like this is why I responded as I did in this thread here -
Religious People Only: Holding Back?
I'm directing this thread at the religious people of the forum. You decide what religiousness means to you, and whether or not you oughta participate in this (non debate) thread. How often do you find yourself having to 'hold back' your religious experiences, thoughts, or interests? Or, is...
www.religiousforums.com
Right: it's different in terms of the attribution of the feeling. Anyone can feel a conviction to do something; where I think it's reasonable to call it a delusion is when they infer that the source of their feeling is God.
As delusions go, this is at the "mild" end... more like pareidolia than outright hallucination.
And I didn't say otherwise.
I disagree.
A personal example: during my first marriage, if my ex and I were in a busy mall parking lot, she would give a quick prayer to God to ask for a parking space. When we found one, she would say that this was God answering her prayer. I just chalked it up to chance and the fact that you'll find a space eventually if you wait long enough, and figured that God wasn't involved.
She never claimed to hear the voice of God guide her to a space or that she saw a sunbeam come down from Heaven to illuminate the parking spot just for her; she just believed that God was invisibly manipulating things behind the scenes to get us a parking spot.
I am comfortable saying that she was more deluded than I was on this issue.
I agree it would depend on what the person actually meant. For a belief like "I was called by God to do X," "called by" could mean anything from the arrangement of fate in a specific way—which is a belief many have even without necessarily attributing fate to the work of a god—to "I literally heard a divine voice call on me to run for office." In most cases, I would consider the latter much closer to a delusion than the former.
Illusion:
"I feel called by God to serve him."
Delusion:
"I heard God's voice. He told me that I'm chosen to serve him."
Can we not pathologize like this? OCD does not have rituals, per say, it has compulsions, and a lot of the times the compulsions are not even visible or behavioral, but purely invasive thoughts. When it is behavioral it's not chosen patterns it's usually unbidden stims and ticks, more akin to Autistic and Tourettes folk. People who obsessively clean (Ala Monk or Matchstick Men) are not OCD. That is just a Hollywood spin on entirely different problems with anxieties and anxiety triggers. Does that mean that people with OCD don't also do this, no of course not. But it's because OCD very often comes with anxiety and trying to find and avoid triggers. That anxiety is addressed different and separately than OCD.
This, to me, is the equivalent of telling someone who has a strict daily fitness routine they're being OCD. OCD is not about choices.
And as far as religious people who have anxiety using maladaptive practices to avoid anxiety triggers, this can be done with literally anything. Video games, reading, philosophizing on the internet, doomscrolling, anything which brings a steady supply of dopamine and avoids percieved triggers.
If someone were to say that all or most religious people are brushing up with clinical pathology I'd tell them to please stop watering down clinical pathology which makes it harder for people actually suffering from OCD and anxiety to be understood and aided.
Last edited:
PureX
Veteran Member
Then you would deluding yourself, as you would be believing something to be false that you can't possibly know to be false.
It's not a delusion at all if it's just an internal conviction being expressed by spiritual or religious language.
Again, if believing without knowing is the delusion then it seems you were both guilty of that.
Actually, you had no more knowledge on the subject then she did. You just can't see that because you're still a believer in your own delusion. As I assume she still is.
Literally everyone has delusions. The fact none of us could name our current ones is because we all have things we believe are evidenced but are in fact not. I'd even go so far as to say the belief that one would of course change any view they have based on strong evidence is itself a delusion of grandeur. Because we have ample psychology evidence that's not how brains and beliefs work. It's why science wouldn't even be a thing without constant checks and rechecks from peers outside the study group, to correct for *inherent and unavoidable biases we all have as individuals.*
From as simple as the shared delusion that the sun is yellow, to as complex as whether or not the American Dream is at all realistic, or how much a free market actually corrects itself, or what number of civilian deaths is it okay to say Gazan people are being subject to genocide. Somebody or other will think your stance is deluded and you will think theirs is. Making the term useless as a diagnostic tool and only existing for petty insults.
It's why the DSM specifies that clinical delusion disorders have a much more specific set of defined traits associated with maladaptive thoughts and behaviors which interfere with normal life. With strict criteria around what constitutes referential, somatic, ertomanic, persecutory and other delusions and when exactly they become pathological.
From as simple as the shared delusion that the sun is yellow, to as complex as whether or not the American Dream is at all realistic, or how much a free market actually corrects itself, or what number of civilian deaths is it okay to say Gazan people are being subject to genocide. Somebody or other will think your stance is deluded and you will think theirs is. Making the term useless as a diagnostic tool and only existing for petty insults.
It's why the DSM specifies that clinical delusion disorders have a much more specific set of defined traits associated with maladaptive thoughts and behaviors which interfere with normal life. With strict criteria around what constitutes referential, somatic, ertomanic, persecutory and other delusions and when exactly they become pathological.
Last edited: