Are Believers Delusional?

[Colt]

via What Are Delusions?
The DSM also makes an exception for religiously held beliefs.

So, currently, believers are not seen as delusional.

But should they?

I think that they should when their beliefs lead to a sense of entitlement. There are enough examples, historical and present, that fall under that category.
"We shall conquer that land because it was given to us by our god."
"We deserve tax exemption because we believe in an invisible, higher being."
"I deserve special respect because of my irrational beliefs." (Blasphemy laws)
"You should vote for me, because I got called by my god to run for office."

Technically, it wouldn't even touch on the religious beliefs, only on the resulting entitlement, but even that seems to be a taboo.

What do you think, is someone who thinks that they are entitled to special treatment because of their beliefs, delusional?

For those who don't God it may seem that way.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

That's why I'd like to call him and others like him delusional. He was under the impression that his belief gave him special tax exemptions. And he still has this fixed, false belief, he has stated that he was unjustly imprisoned.

The FFRF deals with such delusions on a weekly basis. People in organizations who think that their religion has special privileges. Most of them are simply uninformed, but every now and then some are not persuaded by evidence and the courts have to decide, usually against them.
So we have the stubborn belief, and we have people getting hurt (taxpayers), and, just my speculation, a delusion diagnosis could prevent at least some people from going that far.

So we diagnose all religious people as delusional? How do you differentiate between a delusional belief and a mistaken belief?

 

[Audie]

Some do some don't, but I don't think they are delusional. They just are believing things based on a bad evaluation of evidence.

What delusion isnt?

I pointed out that those who believe
things that conflict with reality are
delusional. You did not address that.



You also left out consideration of mental
capacity to evaluate quality of evidence.

 

[Audie]

So we diagnose all religious people as delusional? How do you differentiate between a delusional belief and a mistaken belief?

Ive met religious people Christian and otherwise who
believe in a great spirit of some unknowable sort.
Without, for example, thnking there is much of anything
in the bible that is factual.

People who think the bible or koran is literally true,
otoh, are clearly and obviously deluded.

 

[Heyo]

So we diagnose all religious people as delusional? How do you differentiate between a delusional belief and a mistaken belief?

Simple, by providing evidence. A delusion is a false belief that doesn't change in light of evidence.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Simple, by providing evidence. A delusion is a false belief that doesn't change in light of evidence.

To repeat earlier posts, we as individuals all hold onto unevidenced beliefs. Because that's how psychology works.

It's created a blind spot in a lot of atheist (chronically online) communities where they think they're the pinnacle of rationality but they casually reflect some awful prejudices like homophobia, transphobia, sexism, ablism, racism, ect, So many fall into the trap of thinking it must be rationality if not religion reinforcing it, because they're not religious so of course they must be rational right?

Even with absolutely mundane things like when Aronra challenged the 'humans are not monkeys' colloquially because those atheist communities got so used to being reactionary against creationists they themselves refused to let go of an outdated belief, because it was reinforced by repetition and bias.

Trying to leverage this against believers when it's something everyone struggles with is just so hubristic to me. As is trying to pathologize it when it's *neurotypical.*

 

[sun rise]

How do you differentiate between a delusional belief and a mistaken belief?

Commenting on a question asked to another person:

What I've seen is that "delusional" is used deliberately as a pejorative indicating mental illness rather than "mistaken" which does not carry that baggage.

 

[Nakosis]

No, you as an atheist, is deluded.

G

Sure, depending on what else a atheist may believe. Being an atheist does not immune folks to mental issue.
However, lacking belief in something for which no evidence exists is not delusional. It is just skeptical.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So we diagnose all religious people as delusional? How do you differentiate between a delusional belief and a mistaken belief?

I'm not sure if this is part of the clinical diagnosis, but my take on delusion is that it involves one's own experiences and perceptions. For instance:

• Accepting the Biblical story of Jesus healing the blind with his touch? Probably mistaken, not delusional.
• Believing - for no rational reason - that you can heal the blind with your touch? Delusional.

My impression is that most religious people, even very devout people, aren't delusional.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

What delusion isnt?

I pointed out that those who believe
things that conflict with reality are
delusional. You did not address that.

It is not delusional to be wrong. If I think 5+3*3 = 24 instead of 14 I would be wrong, not delusional. Just because we believe things that do not line up with reality does not make us delusional.

You also left out consideration of mental
capacity to evaluate quality of evidence.

Ok, so a low IQ person is delusional based on that? What are you saying?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Ive met religious people Christian and otherwise who
believe in a great spirit of some unknowable sort.
Without, for example, thnking there is much of anything
in the bible that is factual.

People who think the bible or koran is literally true,
otoh, are clearly and obviously deluded.

We will disagree, they are just wrong. Same with atheists who believe in ghosts, I don't think they are delusional, just wrong.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Commenting on a question asked to another person:

What I've seen is that "delusional" is used deliberately as a pejorative indicating mental illness rather than "mistaken" which does not carry that baggage.

Probably. I think delusion has to do with mental illness.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I'm not sure if this is part of the clinical diagnosis, but my take on delusion is that it involves one's own experiences and perceptions. For instance:

• Accepting the Biblical story of Jesus healing the blind with his touch? Probably mistaken, not delusional.
• Believing - for no rational reason - that you can heal the blind with your touch? Delusional.

My impression is that most religious people, even very devout people, aren't delusional.

I can agree on this.

 

[Audie]

It is not delusional to be wrong. If I think 5+3*3 = 24 instead of 14 I would be wrong, not delusional. Just because we believe things that do not line up with reality does not make us delusional.

Ok, so a low IQ person is delusional based on that? What are you saying?

Im not so,simple as to say its delusional to be wrong.
Make half an effort to understand what i actually said.

Same with the next thing you so thoroughly
misrepresent.
Emphasis on whether " mental capacity" means iq.

And whether you know any intelligent person who lacks the capacity to ever see theyve made a mistake.

 

[Audie]

We will disagree, they are just wrong. Same with atheists who believe in ghosts, I don't think they are delusional, just wrong.

You dont get to make up your own
definitions and expect them to be accepted.
That would be delusional.

 

[Heyo]

Trying to leverage this against believers when it's something everyone struggles with is just so hubristic to me. As is trying to pathologize it when it's *neurotypical.*

The opposite is the case. I want equality. If someone has some form of an illusion of grandeur like pretending to be the reincarnation of a historical figure (e.g. Napoleon), we agree that they are delusional. If someone has an illusion of grandeur like being a prophet, they are protected by the religious exemption.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Im not so,simple as to say its delusional to be wrong.
Make half an effort to understand what i actually said.

That is why I asked a question.

Same with the next thing you so thoroughly
misrepresent.
Emphasis on whether " mental capacity" means iq.

And whether you know any intelligent person who lacks the capacity to ever see theyve made a mistake.

I asked a question and all you do is insult. Wonderful, Have a great day.

 

[Audie]

That is why I asked a question.

I asked a question and all you do is insult. Wonderful, Have a great day.

You concoct an insulting
misteprrsentation what do
expect? Pie a la mode?

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

That's more like brainwashing, coupled with a massively inflated collection of egos.

 

[Bear Wild]

That's more like brainwashing, coupled with a massively inflated collection of egos.

So true my friend.
Mental disorders are devastating to those that have them but it often too easy to extend words that deal with serious problems out to other ways of perceiving the world that are very functional and an inherited aspect of the human psyche. It is like the misuse of primitive to indigenous societies to wonder why they continue to believe in an animate world.