Are chimpanzees and humans the same kind?

[jarofthoughts]

Question guys; how is this relevant to the OP? :sarcastic

 

[Skwim]

Question guys; how is this relevant to the OP? :sarcastic

If you're referring to my post with the human and chimp kinds . . .
Young earth creationists, faced with the question of how Noah could have fit two of all the various species on earth aboard the ark, typically respond by saying the Bible doesn't say he did. The Bible, they point out, says Noah only had to bring two of each kind aboard, and not two of each species..

Gen 9:15 (NIV)

"I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind.

​

These creationists then go on to claim that all closely related species came from the same pair of kinds, although they never tell us what a "kind" is.

 

[jarofthoughts]

If you're referring to my post with the human and chimp kinds . . .
Young earth creationists, faced with the question of how Noah could have fit two of all the various species on earth aboard the ark, typically respond by saying the Bible doesn't say he did. The Bible, they point out, says Noah only had to bring two of each kind aboard, and not two of each species..

Gen 9:15 (NIV)

"I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind.

​

These creationists then go on to claim that all closely related species came from the same pair of kinds, although they never tell us what a "kind" is.

Which is the problem I'm trying to address.
However, it seems few creationists abound to answer my questions... :sarcastic

 

[Super Universe]

That heaven is involved with the development of Man is fine and good.
But that heaven is a physical form, doesn't work.

God is spirit.
I suspect the angels are likewise.

The incident of angelic life crossing with the daughters of Man is interesting, but also rumored to be a practice that failed.
The offspring were said to be giants, and didn't play well other humans.
And such offspring did not continue in their own 'kind'.

The giants we know today, suffer for their condition.
It is thought more to be a genetic fault....or disease.

Intergalactic intervention has support from many current day scientists.
There is construction all over the earth that indicates superior know-how.
Our ancestors seem to lack the ability, or the script to hand down such technology.

However, if current thought of space travel is correct...
Angelic interaction would be rare and far between.
At the speed of light, hundreds of centuries would pass, before they could return here.

If your notion of such things could be true....
the event would prove a one time occurrence, with no return to consider the outcome.
Man would play out his role on this planet long before a return trip could happen.

I suspect heaven of of mind and heart.
This life is no more than a means to generate a fresh spirit with each occasion of a birth.

I did not say that heaven was a physical form. It is not.

God is spirit. God is also a tree, a stone, a sub atomic particle, and the wind.

Angels are spirit? No, but you may believe what you wish. They should not be given credit they are not due. You may appreciate them as you appreciate a brother who helps you but nothing more than that.

The angelic interbreeding with humans did not go as originally planned, so, one could deem it as a failure, however, interbreeding did occur, some of the first hybrids were giants. More lasting was the increase in evolution of the brain from this interbreeding, it was enough to accept the soul.

Intergalactic intervention has support from many scientists? I know of none. Also, I don't consider angels to be aliens. They exist in another density of space/time, not another part of the universe but another part of the multiverse.

Interaction with angels is rare and far between. At the speed of light hundreds of centuries would pass before they could return here? Angels are like the agents in the Matrix movie. They can open a spiral portal and step from their density to ours. It is almost instantaneous.

You suspect heaven is of the mind and heart? Then you are on the right path.


　

 

[camanintx]

If a five year old child ask you where babies come from, what do you say? If you did tell them exactly what happens how would they describe it to another child? In primitive, very simple terms, right?

You have to realize that the writers of the bible were pretty ignorant compared to today's standards. The revelation they received was probably too advanced for their ability to put into words that would correctly describe the Big Bang and evolution.

And as the five year old child grows up, we give them progressively more detailed explanations corresponding with their ability to comprehend. So why hasn't God provided any new revelations in the last 2,000 years?

 

[Super Universe]

And as the five year old child grows up, we give them progressively more detailed explanations corresponding with their ability to comprehend. So why hasn't God provided any new revelations in the last 2,000 years?

He has or did you really believe that Einstein came up with his theories on his own? An assistant in the patent office suddenly realized that space and time were one? Think about it...

All original thought comes from God because only He is capable of creation, something that is truly original is created and only God can create. 99% of conscious human thought is recycled words and ideas.

As for religion, every prophet, every single one, was someone who proposed new ideas that received acceptance to some degree. From Moses, to Jesus, Mohammad, Buddha and others.

It's been this way since the beginning, you think the bible was a one time thing but even it spans thousands of years.

 

[Skwim]

All original thought comes from God because only He is capable of creation, something that is truly original is created and only God can create. 99% of conscious human thought is recycled words and ideas.

If I understand you correctly then, the clay ashtray I created in Cub Scouts for my dad ( I have to say it was a true original---two levels to it, if you can imagine) was really created by god. Odd that he'd create such a thing, because it wasn't very attractive and not very functional. But , I guess.

 

[Super Universe]

If I understand you correctly then, the clay ashtray I created in Cub Scouts for my dad ( I have to say it was a true original---two levels to it, if you can imagine) was really created by god. Odd that he'd create such a thing, because it wasn't very attractive and not very functional. But , I guess.

No, you didn't "create" a clay ashtray, you "formed" a clay ashtray from materials that God created long ago. Humans mix and match things that they have been given, that's it.

Where did you get the idea of an ashtray? You probably saw one once, right? And maybe you also saw a double decker parking garage? So, you took two known things and combined them. That's mixing.

Lets try a little experiment, think of something original...

 

[Skwim]

No, you didn't "create" a clay ashtray, you "formed" a clay ashtray from materials that God created long ago. Humans mix and match things that they have been given, that's it.

Where did you get the idea of an ashtray? You probably saw one once, right? And maybe you also saw a double decker parking garage? So, you took two known things and combined them. That's mixing.

Lets try a little experiment, think of something original...

Hmmm. Let's see.

cre·ate (kr

-

t

)tr.v. cre·at·ed, cre·at·ing, cre·ates

1. To cause to exist; bring into being. See Synonyms at found1.
2. To give rise to; produce: That remark created a stir.
3. To invest with an office or title; appoint.
4. To produce through artistic or imaginative effort: create a poem; create a role.


​

Were it not for my hands shaping and painting the thing it would have never existed. So it seems to me I caused the ashtray to exist.

And I produced it through artistic or imaginative effort.

Looks like I created the ashtray.

 

[camanintx]

He has or did you really believe that Einstein came up with his theories on his own? An assistant in the patent office suddenly realized that space and time were one? Think about it...

All original thought comes from God because only He is capable of creation, something that is truly original is created and only God can create. 99% of conscious human thought is recycled words and ideas.

As for religion, every prophet, every single one, was someone who proposed new ideas that received acceptance to some degree. From Moses, to Jesus, Mohammad, Buddha and others.

It's been this way since the beginning, you think the bible was a one time thing but even it spans thousands of years.

All that humans have accomplished throughout history and you would give credit to something which is inherently contradictory? Sorry, but you are not going to convince me with that line of reasoning.

 

[Super Universe]

Hmmm. Let's see.

cre·ate (kr

-

t

)tr.v. cre·at·ed, cre·at·ing, cre·ates

1. To cause to exist; bring into being. See Synonyms at found1.
2. To give rise to; produce: That remark created a stir.
3. To invest with an office or title; appoint.
4. To produce through artistic or imaginative effort: create a poem; create a role.


​

Were it not for my hands shaping and painting the thing it would have never existed. So it seems to me I caused the ashtray to exist.

And I produced it through artistic or imaginative effort.

Looks like I created the ashtray.

So how exactly did you "cause to exist" the atoms that made up the clay? With your hands and artistic effort? Did you even know where the scouts got the clay from or how much it cost them? Did you know the exact weight of it? Did you know the number of atoms that made it up?

You've reduced the meaning of the word "creation" to the point that anything any simple thing does is creation.

Were it not for your hands and shaping, painting, the ashtray would have never existed? Sure it would, the atoms would not have ceased to exist just because of your lack of attention.

 

[Super Universe]

All that humans have accomplished throughout history and you would give credit to something which is inherently contradictory? Sorry, but you are not going to convince me with that line of reasoning.

What is the supposed "inherent contradiction" of God?

 

[Pegg]

If that is the case, then 'kind' pretty much matches up with the scientific word species. The only potential difference is that 'species' requires that the offspring are fertile.

no its not. At one time i though it was, but i know its not because i've seen how a tiger and lion can be crossbred and these are two different species.

Both cats belong to the same family, and so a 'kind' can be different species within the same family.

A Kind = Family.

 

[Pegg]

So, your answer to my question is 'no, they are not the same kind' and the reason is that they cannot cross breed.

Is this a correct understanding of your answer?

A slight clarifying question: Do you mean 'can't cross breed at all' or 'can't cross breed and produce viable offspring'?

as far as i know, those mad scientists who have tried to cross breed chimps with humans have been unsuccessful...so of course i do not believe we are the same kind.

Nor do I believe we are the same 'family'. If we were, then we should be able to cross breed and perhaps produce a hybrid...this would indicate that the dna is capable of reproducing, but has reached its limits.

 

[painted wolf]

Wait.... so if a lion and a housecat can't produce a hybrid, then they must be different... "families"/"kinds".

Pigs and Peccaries are thus different "kinds" as well.

wa:do

 

[Skwim]

no its not. At one time i though it was, but i know its not because i've seen how a tiger and lion can be crossbred and these are two different species.

Both cats belong to the same family, and so a 'kind' can be different species within the same family.

A Kind = Family.

Err, lions and tigers not only belong to the same family, Felidae, but to the same genus, Panthera. Ligers (cross between a male lion and a female tiger) and tiglons (cross between a male tiger and a female lion) are not inter-fertile within their hybrid, although a female cub was once produced by the mating of a lion with a lion-tiger hybrid. So neither ligers nor tiglons are considered to be successful crossbreeders---they can't make baby ligers or tiglons. And because they both belong to the same genus, to note their common family is meaningless as to note that they belong to the same order or to the same class. This goes to your point that "

"Nor do I believe we are the same 'family'. If we were, then we should be able to cross breed and perhaps produce a hybrid...this would indicate that the dna is capable of reproducing, but has reached its limits.​

 

[jarofthoughts]

as far as i know, those mad scientists who have tried to cross breed chimps with humans have been unsuccessful...so of course i do not believe we are the same kind.

Nor do I believe we are the same 'family'. If we were, then we should be able to cross breed and perhaps produce a hybrid...this would indicate that the dna is capable of reproducing, but has reached its limits.

Sure, but you did not, in fact, answer my question.

Do you mean 'can't cross-breed at all' or 'can't cross-breed and produce fertile offspring'?

 

[MD]

Here's something that should help those who don't understand how many different kinds of 'kind' there are

Kingdom , Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species

(King Phillips Came Over For Good Spaghetti --> 1st year Biology mneomnic)

 

[Skwim]

Here's something that should help those who don't understand how many different kinds of 'kind' there are

Kingdom , Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species

(King Phillips Came Over For Good Spaghetti --> 1st year Biology mneomnic)

I always remember it as King Philip Came Over For Ginger Snaps, not that it makes any difference. Then there's the fact that there is now a rank above Kingdom, Domain, which consists of Eucarya, Archaea, and Bacteria.

 

[Pegg]

Wait.... so if a lion and a housecat can't produce a hybrid, then they must be different... "families"/"kinds".

Pigs and Peccaries are thus different "kinds" as well.

wa:do

thats possible because the genesis account differentiates between the 'wild' and 'domestic' kinds.