Are Christians actually worshiping the Father of Jesus?

[RabbiO]

1) I think He said that He came to replace the old law which creates a bit of conflict relative to the Christian beliefs (of course others may disagree with me ) because, "What does it mean to replace the old law?"

2) The true foundation for Christian beliefs are the recorded words of Lord Jesus and the eye witness testimonies of those that were present with Him at the time....

3) Now if one looks at the recorded words of Lord Jesus in the NT of Christian scripture one finds that the words of Lord Jesus are totally out of sinc with the beliefs of the old testament beliefs of the Jewish faith. What Jesus was saying is totally different than what the old testament was saying.

4) One, the Jewish faith does not believe in life after death....

5) About not breaking the old laws: Jesus said that slaves should obey their masters and to give to Rome that which is Rome's, so of course He would say that one should obey the Old Testament commandments. ...

6) [T]hey are teaching the fear that is contained in the Old Testament (yes the Old Testement has love in it but mostly it is about fearing a jealous God and the wrath of that God)......

1) Where does it say that?

2) What eyewitnesses?

3) Really?

4) Really?

5) Now you contradict what you said in in 1) and 3)

6) Really?

Peter

 

[Ingledsva]

I wasn't sure whether to be facetious and say. "I really must get myself a copy of this Old Testament so I can read about this monster deity." or just do this

You do not seem to be aware that the "new commandments" you mention are from Hebrew scripture and not original to Jesus.

Peter

Well, you have to admit it says some nasty thing about YHVH.


Such as murdering the innocent for the "supposed" sins of others.


The flood, first born of Egypt, King David's baby, the bear incident, etc.


And the Hebrew people of that time weren't so wonderful either, according to Tanakh. They murdered, taking other people's land, held slaves, raped slaves, etc. They even kidnapped and raped the daughters of Shiloh.



*

 

[Astravalon]

With Lord Jesus you just allow consciously the presence of Lord Jesus to indwell you and His purity allows the presence of His Father to indwell you also. And over time this Divine Presence changes you because you become what you channel.

Maybe that's why what has been called "practicing the presence of
God" has such an exhilarating quality to it (if I'm thinking of the same
thing, of course).

Whenever I make a point of doing even everyday things with the
specific motivation of doing it as an act of worship to God who is here
with me and in me, it's energizing and makes the most mundane things
a joy to do.

-

 

[roger1440]

I just want to throw in my two cents and then I hope RabbiO takes it further.

What we see with both Torah and Tanakh are narratives that were written well after the events they covered, and we know this because of glottochronology-- the study of the evolution of language. Therefore, the authors covered either real events or somewhat imaginary ones, and then placed God into them-- accurately or not.

Wrong. The stories could have been rewritten over and over again throughout the centuries to accommodate the changing Hebrew language. Some of the stories may have their roots in older stories from other cultures. Regardless of how the Jews came into being, there must have been older stories from there ancestors. These older stories would have been molded to fit the Jewish agenda. Judaism was not created from a vacuum.

 

[roger1440]

After a lifetime of reading the Protestant Christian version of the Bible it has come to my mind that the Father that Lord Jesus was talking about is not the same God that most Christians are worshiping. Most Christians are worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus said that He came to replace the Old Law and that the new commandments were to love the Father and one's neighbor. He also said that the only sin that can not be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit. Lord Jesus also claimed that His Father was a loving entity. The God of the Old Testament is not a loving and forgiving entity and seems to be pretty fussy about things.

Christians for the most part seem to be worshiping the God of the Old Testament and not the Father of Jesus. On one hand the Christian God is a loving entity because Lord Jesus said so and on the other hand He is a monster that does not fit the discription that Lord Jesus gave of His Father. Either the old God changed because of Lord Jesus or the Father of Jesus is not the same God as the old God. Either way most of Christianity seems to have gone back to the old God and away from the Father of Lord Jesus.

?

At first glance, the God of the Old Testament may seem to be a different God from the New Testament. This is because the authors of the New Testament are writing from a different perspective then the authors of the Old Testament. If my daughter, father, girlfriend, employer, and neighbor each wrote a story about me, each story would be different because each approaches me from a different angle, yet I’m still the same person.

 

[metis]

Wrong. The stories could have been rewritten over and over again throughout the centuries to accommodate the changing Hebrew language. Some of the stories may have their roots in older stories from other cultures. Regardless of how the Jews came into being, there must have been older stories from there ancestors. These older stories would have been molded to fit the Jewish agenda. Judaism was not created from a vacuum.

Yes, narratives can and often are carried orally and/or in written form (the latter can also be quite subjective and typically is to at least varying degrees), but they also are prone to alteration as times goes on. This technique actually has a plus side to it as the overall theme(s) can be at least somewhat altered to make a point(s), and we have seen this happening in pretty much all cultures.

Because of this, it often is impossible to know what the original narrative was and how accurate it may or may not have been. In anthropology/archaeology, we tend not to make assumptions one way or another on exactly what the original may have been, nor did I do so with my post. If you check my wording out in my previous post, you'll see that I put in this fudge-factor element.

 

[metis]

As as addition to my last post, let me also mention that I do not believe in miracles, although this is not to say that miracles are somehow impossible. Therefore, when I see miracles being performed in any scriptures, and they are literally found in all throughout the world, at least as far as I've experienced, then I'm skeptical, but not to the point of absolute denial.

OTOH, if someone readily believes in miracles, their viewing and approach with much of the narratives is likely to be different than mine. That's fine for them, but my skepticism prevents me from just automatically accepting them as fact.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Sir, I think He said that He came to replace the old law which creates a bit of conflict relative to the Christian beliefs (of course others may disagree with me ) because, "What does it mean to replace the old law?"

Where in NT did Jesus(pbuh) say that ?

The true foundation for Christian beliefs are the recorded words of Lord Jesus and the eye witness testimonies of those that were present with Him at the time. Without the recorded words and eye witness acounts contained in Christian scripture there wouldn't be any Christianity. There would only be Jewish and Islam of those three religions.

I agree. Hence, the right thing to do would be to at least follow the words of Jesus(pbuh) and not anyone else's like Paul - especially if it contradicts Jesus's(pbuh) teachings.

Now if one looks at the recorded words of Lord Jesus in the NT of Christian scripture one finds that the words of Lord Jesus are totally out of sinc with the beliefs of the old testament beliefs of the Jewish faith. What Jesus was saying is totally different than what the old testament was saying. One, the Jewish faith does not believe in life after death and only a very rare few are invited to ascend into Heaven.

I don't agree with that and here are some quotes from OT vs. NT that supports my argument.
Example from OT(Exodus 18) - from Moses(pbuh) :
"13 The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening. 14 When his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people, he said, “What is this you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge, while all these people stand around you from morning till evening?”

15 Moses answered him, “Because the people come to me to seek God’s will. 16 Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God’s decrees and instructions.”

Example from NT(John 5) - from Jesus(pbuh) :

"30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. "

That's just one example of Jesus's(pbuh) fundamental teaching which is so close to Mose's(pbuh) teaching. Not to mention the other comparative verse I have given you earlier about God being one.

With Jesus everybody gets to go unless they sin against the Holy Spirit (whatever that means). And Lord Jesus went ahead to prepare a place for those that are going to Heaven.

Where in NT did Jesus(pbuh) say that ?

About not breaking the old laws: Jesus said that slaves should obey their masters and to give to Rome that which is Rome's, so of course He would say that one should obey the Old Testament commandments. Jesus' words were not about this world other than love and forgiveness,

Why did Jesus(pbuh) say the following then ?
" Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. " (Matthew 10:34)

His words were about becoming an adopted child of our Father that is in Heaven and joining His Heavenly family. There is absolutely nothing in the Old Testament that says anything about one being able to become an adopted child of the Heavenly Father (who Jesus claims as His Father) and joining His Heavenly family.

Really ? What is this then ?
"You are the children of the Lord your God. " Deuteronomy 14:1

Also, isn't the concept of Son of God used for others in the Bible as well ? For example ...
"13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son." (2 Samuel 7)

Lord Jesus has given a gift that a lot of Christianity is changing into something else and that something else is chasing folks away from that gift. They do not teach the love and forgiveness that Lord Jesus taught. Instead they are teaching the fear that is contained in the Old Testament (yes the Old Testement has love in it but mostly it is about fearing a jealous God and the wrath of that God). Some even clain that Lord Jesus is the Son of that God and that if you do not follow Lord Jesus in precisely the way that they think it should be done that you are going to burn in Hell for eternity because of the wrath of that God. There is not any love and forgiveness and allowance for ignorance in their Christianity, and their Christianity was not what Lord Jesus was teaching. Their Christianity is Old Testament not New Testament.

Can you find a statement of Jesus(pbuh) from the NT where he asked people to call him LORD or equate him with God as LORD ? On the contrary, I find the following from his teachings ...

"16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19)

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father." (Matthew 24:36)

How can Jesus(pbuh) be Lord God if he is not Good enough, if he didn't have complete knowledge of everything like when the day of judgement is ?

Finally, he says "For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me." (john 6:38)

Once again, from Jesus's(pbuh) own teachings it seems like he only claimed to have been sent by the Father(God) as a Messenger to judge/teach according to God' will - nothing more.

Peace.

 

[mystic64]

Where in NT did Jesus(pbuh) say that ?


I agree. Hence, the right thing to do would be to at least follow the words of Jesus(pbuh) and not anyone else's like Paul - especially if it contradicts Jesus's(pbuh) teachings.


I don't agree with that and here are some quotes from OT vs. NT that supports my argument.
Example from OT(Exodus 18) - from Moses(pbuh) :
"13 The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening. 14 When his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people, he said, “What is this you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge, while all these people stand around you from morning till evening?”

15 Moses answered him, “Because the people come to me to seek God’s will. 16 Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God’s decrees and instructions.”

Example from NT(John 5) - from Jesus(pbuh) :

"30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. "

That's just one example of Jesus's(pbuh) fundamental teaching which is so close to Mose's(pbuh) teaching. Not to mention the other comparative verse I have given you earlier about God being one.


Where in NT did Jesus(pbuh) say that ?


Why did Jesus(pbuh) say the following then ?
" Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. " (Matthew 10:34)



Really ? What is this then ?
"You are the children of the Lord your God. " Deuteronomy 14:1

Also, isn't the concept of Son of God used for others in the Bible as well ? For example ...
"13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son." (2 Samuel 7)



Can you find a statement of Jesus(pbuh) from the NT where he asked people to call him LORD or equate him with God as LORD ? On the contrary, I find the following from his teachings ...

"16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19)

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father." (Matthew 24:36)

How can Jesus(pbuh) be Lord God if he is not Good enough, if he didn't have complete knowledge of everything like when the day of judgement is ?

Finally, he says "For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me." (john 6:38)

Once again, from Jesus's(pbuh) own teachings it seems like he only claimed to have been sent by the Father(God) as a Messenger to judge/teach according to God' will - nothing more.

Peace.

Very well done LoverofTruth! Requesting one to back up what they say with scripure and verse is a valid request. Normally I am talking to Jehovah Witnesses and they know where what I am saying is located, so I geuss this has made me sloppy which is no excuse.

Why did Jesus(pbuh) say the following then ?
" Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. " (Matthew 10:34)

LoverofTruth, your above question and scripture is the key to everything that you have presented in your post. The quoted words of Jesus in the NT, if taken as a whole, are very destructive to the traditional Jewish religious tradition of the Old Testament that was being practiced at the time that Jesus was present and preaching on Earth. Things like "eye for an eye" and strict abeyance of the Law were replaced by love and forgiveness. And the God of the OT was the God of the Jewish race and the OT is a history of the Jewish race and their relationship with their God. The God of the OT is not the God of anyone who is not of the Jewish race. The Father of Jesus was for anyone that wished to follow Jesus. And Jesus was very critical of the actions of the Jewish religious leaders. These things along with most of what Jesus is quoted to have said spelled doom for the traditional Jewish faith and traditions. So, of course if He was being honest, He would admit that He did not come to bring peace. The complaints of the Jewish leadership at the time of Jesus were valid complaints, because what Jesus was preaching was not only not Jewish, it was also destructive to the Jewish traditions of that day. And again the Father of Jesus as Jesus presented Him had no, or at least very little, simularities to the traditional God of OT Jewish tradition.

 

[mystic64]

Maybe that's why what has been called "practicing the presence of
God" has such an exhilarating quality to it (if I'm thinking of the same
thing, of course).

Whenever I make a point of doing even everyday things with the
specific motivation of doing it as an act of worship to God who is here
with me and in me, it's energizing and makes the most mundane things
a joy to do.

-

! My experience has been the same as what you have described. My problem is that the part of my personality programming that lies in my subconscious mind fears happiness because of childhood programming. So, when I feel the presence of Lord Jesus dwelling within me I feel happy which then causes my subconscious mind to react with fear. Anyway, It is harder for folks that have crumby personality programming in the subconscious part of their mind, but if one does not allow fear to rule them, then the presence of Lord Jesus will cause these fears to go away.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Very well done LoverofTruth! Requesting one to back up what they say with scripure and verse is a valid request. Normally I am talking to Jehovah Witnesses and they know where what I am saying is located, so I geuss this has made me sloppy which is no excuse.

First of all, you have nicely, diverted all scripture quotes that I have provided and essentially by passed any actual teachings of Jesus(pbuh) from the New Testament. You are just talking from your personal opinions without any evidence from the scripture and hence not being true to your comments regarding following the actual teachings of Jesus(pbuh).

And the God of the OT was the God of the Jewish race and the OT is a history of the Jewish race and their relationship with their God. The God of the OT is not the God of anyone who is not of the Jewish race.

OT could very well be the history of Jewish race and their relationship with God, however, to say that the God of the OT was a different God and only for the Jewish people defies basic principle of monotheism - especially if you believe in an All powerful, All knowing God. It is one thing to say that a specific messenger with a specific message was sent to a specific group of people (by the same God) and quiet another to say that a specific God is for a specific people. That's borderline polytheism.

And by the way, how do you know anything about the creation story about mankind then ? Does the NT say anything about it ? Or the God of NT didn't think of such an important issue of how the human kind and the universe came into being to be of any significance ? For a Christian to discard the OT like that, it would be quite foolish.

And Jesus was very critical of the actions of the Jewish religious leaders. These things along with most of what Jesus is quoted to have said spelled doom for the traditional Jewish faith and traditions. So, of course if He was being honest, He would admit that He did not come to bring peace. The complaints of the Jewish leadership at the time of Jesus were valid complaints, because what Jesus was preaching was not only not Jewish, it was also destructive to the Jewish traditions of that day.

Once again, do you have any statements of Jesus(pbuh) to prove the statement highlighted in red above ?

It is true that Jesus(pbuh) was critical of the actions of the Jewish religious leaders. But isn't that natural ? If God sent him to the Jewish people to bring them back to following God (if they went astray from it), that's exactly what he was doing. In fact, according to his own words,he was sent to them : "He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)
and that's exactly what he was preaching to his apostles as well : "5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 10)

Moreover, that statement about Jesus(pbuh) made about sword was to his twelve apostles. So now imagine that Jesus(pbuh) telling his own people that he was sent to the Jewish people only and he was telling his apostles that he came not to bring peace but sword. According to his own teachings, he was sent with sword to the only people he was sent to. So where do you get the memo that he came to bring love and forgiveness for everyone else ? Once again, you do not seem to be following Jesus's(pbuh) teaching from NT but rather someone else's.

And again the Father of Jesus as Jesus presented Him had no, or at least very little, similarities to the traditional God of OT Jewish tradition.

Once again you keep repeating the same statement without showing any evidence from the teachings of Jesus(pbuh) to support your claim. So it doesn't hold much value.

Peace.

 

[RabbiO]

The complaints of the Jewish leadership at the time of Jesus were valid complaints, because what Jesus was preaching was not only not Jewish, it was also destructive to the Jewish traditions of that day. And again the Father of Jesus as Jesus presented Him had no, or at least very little, simularities to the traditional God of OT Jewish tradition.

Your comments indicate that you have no real knowledge or understanding of Judaism in the late 2nd Temple period, especially the 1st century C.E.

I can point you to reference material, if you desire. Absent that, I will absent myself from this thread. I really do not have the time, much as I might like, to prepare long treastises to post.

Peter

 

[metis]

The quoted words of Jesus in the NT, if taken as a whole, are very destructive to the traditional Jewish religious tradition of the Old Testament that was being practiced at the time that Jesus was present and preaching on Earth.

Actually, most of what Jesus taught was compatible with the Judaism of the day, and the Sermon on the Mount is classical Judaism, for example.

Things like "eye for an eye" and strict abeyance of the Law were replaced by love and forgiveness.

That had long been clarified before Jesus' time by both the Writings of the Prophets and the Oral Law, the latter of which was later incorporated into the Talmud. For example, the Talmud states that, if more than one person was executed in all of Israel over a seven year span, the courts were being overly brutal.

And the God of the OT was the God of the Jewish race and the OT is a history of the Jewish race and their relationship with their God. The God of the OT is not the God of anyone who is not of the Jewish race.

Not at all true as the belief that there's only one God who was God of all. Even though the Covenant and the Law applied to only Jews, there is no condemnation whatsoever for gentiles, and even Torah states that all nations and all peoples that act morally and fairly are doing right in the eyes of God.

The Father of Jesus was for anyone that wished to follow Jesus. And Jesus was very critical of the actions of the Jewish religious leaders. These things along with most of what Jesus is quoted to have said spelled doom for the traditional Jewish faith and traditions. So, of course if He was being honest, He would admit that He did not come to bring peace. The complaints of the Jewish leadership at the time of Jesus were valid complaints, because what Jesus was preaching was not only not Jewish, it was also destructive to the Jewish traditions of that day. And again the Father of Jesus as Jesus presented Him had no, or at least very little, simularities to the traditional God of OT Jewish tradition.

See above.

 

[Ingledsva]

Where in NT did Jesus(pbuh) say that ?


I agree. Hence, the right thing to do would be to at least follow the words of Jesus(pbuh) and not anyone else's like Paul - especially if it contradicts Jesus's(pbuh) teachings.


I don't agree with that and here are some quotes from OT vs. NT that supports my argument.
Example from OT(Exodus 18) - from Moses(pbuh) :
"13 The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening. 14 When his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people, he said, “What is this you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge, while all these people stand around you from morning till evening?”

15 Moses answered him, “Because the people come to me to seek God’s will. 16 Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God’s decrees and instructions.”

Example from NT(John 5) - from Jesus(pbuh) :

"30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. "

That's just one example of Jesus's(pbuh) fundamental teaching which is so close to Mose's(pbuh) teaching. Not to mention the other comparative verse I have given you earlier about God being one.


Where in NT did Jesus(pbuh) say that ?


Why did Jesus(pbuh) say the following then ?
" Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. " (Matthew 10:34)



Really ? What is this then ?
"You are the children of the Lord your God. " Deuteronomy 14:1

Also, isn't the concept of Son of God used for others in the Bible as well ? For example ...
"13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. 14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son." (2 Samuel 7)



Can you find a statement of Jesus(pbuh) from the NT where he asked people to call him LORD or equate him with God as LORD ? On the contrary, I find the following from his teachings ...

"16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19)

“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[a] but only the Father." (Matthew 24:36)

How can Jesus(pbuh) be Lord God if he is not Good enough, if he didn't have complete knowledge of everything like when the day of judgement is ?

Finally, he says "For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me." (john 6:38)

Once again, from Jesus's(pbuh) own teachings it seems like he only claimed to have been sent by the Father(God) as a Messenger to judge/teach according to God' will - nothing more.

Peace.

Yep. When you look at what Jesus said - in the Greek - he never said he was God, - or even a "natural" son of God.


Gal 3:26 For you are all sons/children of God through faith in Messiah Jesus.


Romans 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."

16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.




*

 

[mystic64]

Actually, most of what Jesus taught was compatible with the Judaism of the day, and the Sermon on the Mount is classical Judaism, for example.



That had long been clarified before Jesus' time by both the Writings of the Prophets and the Oral Law, the latter of which was later incorporated into the Talmud. For example, the Talmud states that, if more than one person was executed in all of Israel over a seven year span, the courts were being overly brutal.



Not at all true as the belief that there's only one God who was God of all. Even though the Covenant and the Law applied to only Jews, there is no condemnation whatsoever for gentiles, and even Torah states that all nations and all peoples that act morally and fairly are doing right in the eyes of God.



See above.

Thank you for your input Metis. What you posted was very helpful. The reason that I said that the old testament God was a "monster" was, 1. There seems to be a lot of folks that have that opinion of Him whether right or wrong; and 2. I was hoping that somebody of the Jewish Faith would contribute input into this topic because most folks do not know much about the Jewish faith and most of what they seem to know is slanted. So anything that you or the Rabbi contribute as far as I am concerned is valuable. And Rabbi os getting upset so I am going to have to lighten up which is ok.

 

[mystic64]

Yep. When you look at what Jesus said - in the Greek - he never said he was God, - or even a "natural" son of God.


Gal 3:26 For you are all sons/children of God through faith in Messiah Jesus.


Romans 8:14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."

16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.




*

Thank you very much!

 

[mystic64]

First of all, you have nicely, diverted all scripture quotes that I have provided and essentially by passed any actual teachings of Jesus(pbuh) from the New Testament. You are just talking from your personal opinions without any evidence from the scripture and hence not being true to your comments regarding following the actual teachings of Jesus(pbuh).



OT could very well be the history of Jewish race and their relationship with God, however, to say that the God of the OT was a different God and only for the Jewish people defies basic principle of monotheism - especially if you believe in an All powerful, All knowing God. It is one thing to say that a specific messenger with a specific message was sent to a specific group of people (by the same God) and quiet another to say that a specific God is for a specific people. That's borderline polytheism.

And by the way, how do you know anything about the creation story about mankind then ? Does the NT say anything about it ? Or the God of NT didn't think of such an important issue of how the human kind and the universe came into being to be of any significance ? For a Christian to discard the OT like that, it would be quite foolish.



Once again, do you have any statements of Jesus(pbuh) to prove the statement highlighted in red above ?

It is true that Jesus(pbuh) was critical of the actions of the Jewish religious leaders. But isn't that natural ? If God sent him to the Jewish people to bring them back to following God (if they went astray from it), that's exactly what he was doing. In fact, according to his own words,he was sent to them : "He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)
and that's exactly what he was preaching to his apostles as well : "5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 10)

Moreover, that statement about Jesus(pbuh) made about sword was to his twelve apostles. So now imagine that Jesus(pbuh) telling his own people that he was sent to the Jewish people only and he was telling his apostles that he came not to bring peace but sword. According to his own teachings, he was sent with sword to the only people he was sent to. So where do you get the memo that he came to bring love and forgiveness for everyone else ? Once again, you do not seem to be following Jesus's(pbuh) teaching from NT but rather someone else's.



Once again you keep repeating the same statement without showing any evidence from the teachings of Jesus(pbuh) to support your claim. So it doesn't hold much value.

Peace.

Sir, I am just getting a feel for your approach to this discussion. If I had started out quoting scripture, then you would have presented opposite scripture and the game would would have been a foot witout me understanding your approach to the argument before hand. You and I both know that any discussion of the Christian faith has to envolve scripture and verse to actually be valid. So your complain against me is a valid complaint . So my beloved opponent we now enter into the scripture and verse phase of our argument. And in all fairness Ingledsva and I are probably going to tag team you . Anyway, I know approximately where the scriptures are that support my side of the argument relative to your questions, but hunting them up is going to slow me down a little bit. But that is ok because there is not any hurry about this. Aslo I would like to thank you and others for being willing to debate me on this topic because to me it is a valuable learning experience whether I actually win or not.

And for you folks at home, please understand that if your faith provides a platform that brings you closer to God, then your faith is an awesome gift that is to be treasured and please understand also that this is a discussion only and not an attempt to establish a new version of Christianity.

 

[metis]

Thank you for your input Metis. What you posted was very helpful. The reason that I said that the old testament God was a "monster" was, 1. There seems to be a lot of folks that have that opinion of Him whether right or wrong; and 2. I was hoping that somebody of the Jewish Faith would contribute input into this topic because most folks do not know much about the Jewish faith and most of what they seem to know is slanted. So anything that you or the Rabbi contribute as far as I am concerned is valuable. And Rabbi os getting upset so I am going to have to lighten up which is ok.

Glad I could help.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Sir, I am just getting a feel for your approach to this discussion. If I had started out quoting scripture, then you would have presented opposite scripture and the game would would have been a foot witout me understanding your approach to the argument before hand. You and I both know that any discussion of the Christian faith has to envolve scripture and verse to actually be valid. So your complain against me is a valid complaint . So my beloved opponent we now enter into the scripture and verse phase of our argument. And in all fairness Ingledsva and I are probably going to tag team you . Anyway, I know approximately where the scriptures are that support my side of the argument relative to your questions, but hunting them up is going to slow me down a little bit. But that is ok because there is not any hurry about this. Aslo I would like to thank you and others for being willing to debate me on this topic because to me it is a valuable learning experience whether I actually win or not.

And for you folks at home, please understand that if your faith provides a platform that brings you closer to God, then your faith is an awesome gift that is to be treasured and please understand also that this is a discussion only and not an attempt to establish a new version of Christianity.

Ok, not a problem. Please feel free to bring your supportive scriptural arguments against the ones I have provided to you.

By the way, I am not in it to win it - just discussing the truth with evidence.

Peace.

 

[metis]

So anything that you or the Rabbi contribute as far as I am concerned is valuable. And Rabbi os getting upset so I am going to have to lighten up which is ok.

RabbiO is a really good and very intelligent guy, so cut him some slack. It's very frustrating when we are constantly being told that we don't understand the scriptures we wrote, commented on, translated into other languages, and passed on to others. And this goes on day after day after...

And then we're told over and over again that our own little country, Israel, the size of Delaware, shouldn't exist. Other countries can be and have been partitioned such as India, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, the former Soviet Union, etc., and no one questions those, but take a look at how many insist that the former British territory of "Palestine" should have been partitioned whereas the Arabs got 5/6 of the land. There have been many threads dealing with the creation of Israel, but I have yet to see even one thread dealing with the partitioning of the other countries.

Can you see why we sometimes get frustrated?