Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
OK the title is more for attention grabbing, but is still related to this OP.
With all the silly threads lately about LDS being Christian or not, I thought Id give an outsiders point of view on Christianity as a whole.
Until very recently, I considered myself a Gnostic Christian and so I have quite a different view of what it means to be a Christian to many people on this board.
What I find most striking, is that for all the debating (and sometimes the petty arguing) you (Evangelicals, Baptists, Catholics [East and West], LDS, Anglicans and Protestants of various ilk) have far more in common than you differ on. And what you do differ on, from the perspective of a Gnostic Christian, is so petty and minor as to make it almost laughable that you make them into such a big deal.
What is a Christian?
Well yes, many Christians use the bible to reinforce their faith and understanding. But you can be a Christian with half the Book of Matthew as your entire scriptural collection. People in the first few centuries had no Bible, you had groups you used just Matthew, others who had Acts, Romans and Galatians, others who had to hand only the epistles of John. These were all Christians, who professed faith in Christ as He was portrayed to them in whatever texts they could safely lay their hands on.
Of course some Christians use the Bible alone to form and maintain their faith, but theyre in the minority today, and throughout history.
Most Christians relied on ecclesiastical groups to teach them their faith, on tradition and oral teachings.
Also, Christians since the beginning of the faith have believed in new prophecy, the Montanists are a good example and they were clearly Christian otherwise the Father of the Latin Church himself, Tertullian, would not have converted to their way.
Many Christians today believe in the Trinity, but in the past the doctrine was but one of many views of both God and Jesuss role in that Godhead. We had Nestorianism, Adoptionism, Arianism, Docetism, Monophytism, Monoarchianism, Monothelitism, Sabellianism and Apollinarism to name but a few of the myriad different Christian theological speculations we have had throughout history, many of them being very early concepts co-existing alongside the orthodox Trinitarians.
All were Christian, all believed in God and held Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Saviour.
All these things Christians of today have in common, in some form at least, but throughout history there have been groups of Christians, people who believe in Jesus Christ, who have not taken part in some or all of these things.
And it was the only Christianity that they knew; they had not deviated from some greater original or converted from the true path. Their faith had evolved from the same beginning all Christian groups came from, and it was just as valid as any other groups version of Christianity.
As a Gnostic Christian I could trace my beliefs back through to the same origin as the orthodox, the Montanists and the Ebionites. Right back to St. Paul through his pupil Theudas and his pupil Valentinus.
This claim of lineage is all that any group has to support their authenticity but its a claim, nothing more.
My beliefs differed so drastically from the orthodox that it is difficult to even see them as belonging to the same religious family. Yet I considered myself Christian, I still have the utmost respect for the Christ I had faith in, the Christ of the Christianity that made most sense to me.
When I looked at the other professed Christians of the board, their similarities so outweighed their differences that they appeared as a single group to me;
A group that believed in the God of the Old Testament as the Father of Jesus Christ.
A group that held Jesuss death and resurrection as the corner stone of their faith.
A group that believed in the power of water baptism and of the Eucharist/Communion.
A group that believed in sin, in heaven and hell, in the goodness of Creation and the fall of Adam and Eve.
All these things I did not believe in, or feel were necessary as was taught to me by Gnostic scripture and recorded tradition.
So when I saw people who all essentially believe the same thing debating which Jesus is the correct Jesus, when you all believe in exactly the same Jesus from my POV, I did laugh.
So are Christians really Christians?
Whos to say what a Christian really is anyway, every Christian is a heretic to some other Christian.
With all the silly threads lately about LDS being Christian or not, I thought Id give an outsiders point of view on Christianity as a whole.
Until very recently, I considered myself a Gnostic Christian and so I have quite a different view of what it means to be a Christian to many people on this board.
What I find most striking, is that for all the debating (and sometimes the petty arguing) you (Evangelicals, Baptists, Catholics [East and West], LDS, Anglicans and Protestants of various ilk) have far more in common than you differ on. And what you do differ on, from the perspective of a Gnostic Christian, is so petty and minor as to make it almost laughable that you make them into such a big deal.
What is a Christian?
- Someone who uses the Bible?
Well yes, many Christians use the bible to reinforce their faith and understanding. But you can be a Christian with half the Book of Matthew as your entire scriptural collection. People in the first few centuries had no Bible, you had groups you used just Matthew, others who had Acts, Romans and Galatians, others who had to hand only the epistles of John. These were all Christians, who professed faith in Christ as He was portrayed to them in whatever texts they could safely lay their hands on.
- Someone who uses the Bible alone?
Of course some Christians use the Bible alone to form and maintain their faith, but theyre in the minority today, and throughout history.
Most Christians relied on ecclesiastical groups to teach them their faith, on tradition and oral teachings.
Also, Christians since the beginning of the faith have believed in new prophecy, the Montanists are a good example and they were clearly Christian otherwise the Father of the Latin Church himself, Tertullian, would not have converted to their way.
- Someone who believes in the Trinity of God?
Many Christians today believe in the Trinity, but in the past the doctrine was but one of many views of both God and Jesuss role in that Godhead. We had Nestorianism, Adoptionism, Arianism, Docetism, Monophytism, Monoarchianism, Monothelitism, Sabellianism and Apollinarism to name but a few of the myriad different Christian theological speculations we have had throughout history, many of them being very early concepts co-existing alongside the orthodox Trinitarians.
All were Christian, all believed in God and held Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Saviour.
- Someone who goes to Church?
- Someone who is baptised?
- Someone who takes part in the Eucharist?
All these things Christians of today have in common, in some form at least, but throughout history there have been groups of Christians, people who believe in Jesus Christ, who have not taken part in some or all of these things.
And it was the only Christianity that they knew; they had not deviated from some greater original or converted from the true path. Their faith had evolved from the same beginning all Christian groups came from, and it was just as valid as any other groups version of Christianity.
As a Gnostic Christian I could trace my beliefs back through to the same origin as the orthodox, the Montanists and the Ebionites. Right back to St. Paul through his pupil Theudas and his pupil Valentinus.
This claim of lineage is all that any group has to support their authenticity but its a claim, nothing more.
My beliefs differed so drastically from the orthodox that it is difficult to even see them as belonging to the same religious family. Yet I considered myself Christian, I still have the utmost respect for the Christ I had faith in, the Christ of the Christianity that made most sense to me.
When I looked at the other professed Christians of the board, their similarities so outweighed their differences that they appeared as a single group to me;
A group that believed in the God of the Old Testament as the Father of Jesus Christ.
A group that held Jesuss death and resurrection as the corner stone of their faith.
A group that believed in the power of water baptism and of the Eucharist/Communion.
A group that believed in sin, in heaven and hell, in the goodness of Creation and the fall of Adam and Eve.
All these things I did not believe in, or feel were necessary as was taught to me by Gnostic scripture and recorded tradition.
So when I saw people who all essentially believe the same thing debating which Jesus is the correct Jesus, when you all believe in exactly the same Jesus from my POV, I did laugh.
So are Christians really Christians?
Whos to say what a Christian really is anyway, every Christian is a heretic to some other Christian.
