Are clothes really gendered?

[Kapalika]

Yesterday I was speaking with someone at an employment agency, more or less. I had worked with the company before and so it wasn't unknown that I'm transgender. This person I hadn't ever met before though.

They seemed to be "confused" that I'm female, looked pretty androgynous but that I was wearing "guy's" clothes. I had blue jeans, a t-shirt, a red plaid over shirt and boots on. Apparently where pockets are determine the sex of your button ups and women don't ever wear real boots.

I told them that everything but the t-shirt was gifted to me in the past and I just don't own much of any other clothes at the moment. Only afterwards did I think to quip maybe if I got this new job I'd be able to afford to look more feminine haha.

No... but really I don't understand why clothes has to be "sexed" if that makes sense. I did and will point out now that women wear dude's clothes all the time. Honestly men's clothes tends to be cheaper and some things like boots and jeans are much more suited for being outdoors than women's (I mean actually outdoors as in nature or muddy sides of roads ect) and not every female on the planet is a shut in particularly in rural areas like where I live and not everyone has cars. As far as shirts I get women's cuts if I can but that's not always an option.

So I'm kinda left wondering what's feminine in people's perceptions. Is it just the cut of the clothes or is it more so the style of the clothes? In a society where styles are increasingly androgynous does someone's clothes really matter for how you perceive them to be either feminine or masculine?

More over; styles change over time and what's considered masculine or feminine. Boys used to wear dresses and girls used to wear pants. High heels used to be worn by cavalry and were later part of men's fashion before it became women's fashion. If it's a conformity to a standard where does that standard end since fashion is always changing?

 

[Rival]

In a very basic way, clothes have to be sexed to fit male and female shapes. Anyone who tailors clothes can tell you that the male and female body shape requires different seamlines and cuts.

The rest of it I just think is used as social identifiers.

 

[Kapalika]

In a very basic way, clothes have to be sexed to fit male and female shapes. Anyone who tailors clothes can tell you that the male and female body shape requires different seamlines and cuts.

The rest of it I just think is used as social identifiers.

Ya, I hear ya' on the cut part; I noticed a difference when on HRT after a while. But women's bottoms and boots are just *not* built for outdoor wear unless you go to an actual shop for outdoors stuff. So if you want function it's a 10 buck pair of men's jeans or like 50 bucks women's outdoorsy jeans.

I'm too cheap (and poor) for that price difference.

EDIT: Also... better pockets. Go to reddit or anywhere, the plight of insufficient pockets have been a gripe of women for ages. Purses are great and all but then you gotta find the right style and it becomes this big ordeal and they can get stolen.

 

[Liu]

Culture...

As a transdude stuff is even more complicated xD
I still like some of my old clothes, so why shouldn't I wear them? Even before I realized that I'm trans I often rather bought shirts from the menswear department as I simply liked the design more anyway, so why not doing so the other way round now as well?

Well, currently I can basically pass as either (no mastectomy yet, and keeping my face shaved until I have that new job for certain for which I recently got an offer and until I had a chance to come out to my boss), and so if I don't want people to consider me a female I need to be careful which clothes I choose from my wardrobe. It's a bit bothersome as normally I don't put much any thought into that as long as I like the clothes myself.
Even with some of the men's clothes I have people say they look somehow feminine because of the pattern printed on them or whatever.

 

[Kapalika]

Even with some of the men's clothes I have people say they look somehow feminine because of the pattern printed on them or whatever.

Can you give an example?

 

[Liu]

Can you give an example?

Most weren't really specific. Only detailed example I have, my little brother recently wanted to borrow one of my shirts for a class photo, and when trying on one of them he was like it looks really feminine due to the print: Dropbox - Shirt.jpg

Well I can even kinda agree with him, at least compared to the other men's shirts I have, but still...

 

[Kapalika]

Most weren't really specific. Only detailed example I have, my little brother recently wanted to borrow one of my shirts for a class photo, and when trying on one of them he was like it looks really feminine due to the print: Dropbox - Shirt.jpg

Well I can even kinda agree with him, at least compared to the other men's shirts I have, but still...

I can't tell what that is, maybe kinda. Looks like an artsy band graphic. Maybe to macho types of dudes it looks girly but I could see that on a lot of types of younger guys that live around here into certain kinds of music, certain types of punk or whatever.

 

[Liu]

I can't tell what that is, maybe kinda. Looks like an artsy band graphic. Maybe to macho types of dudes it looks girly but I could see that on a lot of types of younger guys that live around here into certain kinds of music, certain types of punk or whatever.

Yeah, it's just some artsy stuff, not really anything specific shown.

My lil brother certainly isn't a macho, and he's even genderqueer/agender himself (or so he told me a while ago).
Even more strange to hear that from him.
Therefore I suppose that there simply are certain kinds of patterns that are (either culturally or generally) more associated with females or with males for whatever reason.

 

[Kapalika]

Yeah, it's just some artsy stuff, not really anything specific shown.

My lil brother certainly isn't a macho, and he's even genderqueer/agender himself (or so he told me a while ago).
Even more strange to hear that from him.
Therefore I suppose that there simply are certain kinds of patterns that are (either culturally or generally) more associated with females or with males for whatever reason.

Maybe it's how it had circles/curves in it and people associate that with flowers and other planty/garden things and thus women? All I can figure. I'm so used to seeing masses of curves to be thorns and all kinds of thickets. But I could see it being evocative of a thicket of roses in particular.

 

[crossfire]

I'll wear men's clothing without any qualms. They are usually better constructed than women's clothes, and have such luxuries as sleeves, collars, cuffs, AND pockets! I don't give a bleep about gender-specific, as long as it fits, and has sleeves and a collar, or a non-sloppy neckline at the very least. I can't wear men's shoes, though. I have very large hands for a woman, and have difficulty finding gloves large enough. (When it comes to gloves, I prefer women's gloves, as they are generally longer than men's gloves. I don't like gloves that stop abruptly at the wrist.)

 

[illykitty]

I think generally speaking, women get away with a lot more masculine clothing than the other way around. Men's clothing might be practical, which is sorely lacking for women, but they often lack in style. My husband often says women's clothing are a lot more creative, unique and interesting. Lots more cuts, designs, fabrics, colours, etc. Also I've yet to see a guy IRL wearing a skirt or dress (when not in drag). I've seen a few pictures online, but never in reality. They don't really have that option.

 

[crossfire]

If I ever met the guy from Train or the dread Pirate Roberts, I'd steal their clothes!

 

[crossfire]

This guy had better watch his hat if he's around me wearing a navy blue or black one like this, as well!

 

[crossfire]

I'll also freely break other clothing "rules" as well. I have absolutely no qualms about wearing black in the summer and white in the winter. Let whomever think I'm "tacky" for doing so. I simply do not care what "they" think.

 

[sun rise]

Traditionally clothing was really different between men and women and women had to wear skirts and dresses, never pants. And women's shirts were called blouses. Gradually this has broken down for women but less so for men. Now the term is "top" which can apply to men's and women's shirts.

I have narrow and relatively small feet for a guy so I look at some women's athletic shoes when the construction is the same. I once surprised a shoe clerk by asking if they had a "B" size "women's" shoe that would fit me. The sales clerk said he'd heard women asking for men's sizes but never a man asking about women's sizes.

I also had a couple of women tell me I was "daring" for wearing a purple t-shirt for goodness sake.

Very very slowly men are getting the freedom women have to wear anything.

What purple t-shirt was I wearing? Perhaps this one

 

[crossfire]

Traditionally clothing was really different between men and women and women had to wear skirts and dresses, never pants. And women's shirts were called blouses. Gradually this has broken down for women but less so for men. Now the term is "top" which can apply to men's and women's shirts.

I have narrow and relatively small feet for a guy so I look at some women's athletic shoes when the construction is the same. I once surprised a shoe clerk by asking if they had a "B" size "women's" shoe that would fit me. The sales clerk said he'd heard women asking for men's sizes but never a man asking about women's sizes.

I also had a couple of women tell me I was "daring" for wearing a purple t-shirt for goodness sake.

Very very slowly men are getting the freedom women have to wear anything.

What purple t-shirt was I wearing? Perhaps this one

Who makes these silly rules up? They should be singing the Scarecrow song, "If I Only Had a Brain!" The people who follow these silly rules should be singing it even moreso!

 

[crossfire]

Traditionally clothing was really different between men and women and women had to wear skirts and dresses, never pants. And women's shirts were called blouses. Gradually this has broken down for women but less so for men. Now the term is "top" which can apply to men's and women's shirts.

I have narrow and relatively small feet for a guy so I look at some women's athletic shoes when the construction is the same. I once surprised a shoe clerk by asking if they had a "B" size "women's" shoe that would fit me. The sales clerk said he'd heard women asking for men's sizes but never a man asking about women's sizes.

I also had a couple of women tell me I was "daring" for wearing a purple t-shirt for goodness sake.

Very very slowly men are getting the freedom women have to wear anything.

What purple t-shirt was I wearing? Perhaps this one

@sunrise123 May I quote your post to start a new thread about this entitled "Men's Liberation" in the Men's Issues Subforum?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I have a coat type thingy, home made, and the pattern that was used was for a women's vest. I don't think anyone has ever noticed though, and I wear it somewhat often. Like Eddie Izzard said, it's culture that puts clothing in the men's or women's department.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

EDIT: Also... better pockets. Go to reddit or anywhere, the plight of insufficient pockets have been a gripe of women for ages. Purses are great and all but then you gotta find the right style and it becomes this big ordeal and they can get stolen.

That is one thing I hate about women's jeans. I can actually find sizes that fit me (I'm pretty much relegated to buying them online for men's because my size is so hard to find), have lots of choices and styles to choose from, but crap there is no pocket room for anything beyond my drivers license and vape.

 

[Kapalika]

AND pockets

Going from men's jeans to women's jeans... this is where it hurts the most.

I think generally speaking, women get away with a lot more masculine clothing than the other way around. Men's clothing might be practical, which is sorely lacking for women, but they often lack in style. My husband often says women's clothing are a lot more creative, unique and interesting. Lots more cuts, designs, fabrics, colours, etc. Also I've yet to see a guy IRL wearing a skirt or dress (when not in drag). I've seen a few pictures online, but never in reality. They don't really have that option.

Exactly my thoughts too.

What purple t-shirt was I wearing? Perhaps this one

It's daring in that it's cheesy looking but that's it. Maybe if it clashed with your skintone too. But the color itself? Nah.