Are diests really different from the Christian view?

[ThomasTN]

Storm,

My posting was/is not intended to "debate" the quoted post; but merely to offer, what to me, is an obvious observation on the definition of Deism the quoted post presents. :sorry1:

 

[tumbleweed41]

If this is accurate then Deism fails to answer the ultimate question of "Why"?

If God merely created everything, and the natural laws that govern creation's interactivity and does not care what happens there in; Why would God go through all the trouble? Why would God create humanity with the capabilities we have? Why would God create us with the reason to reason about God if God did not care what we would reason about God?

All of the universe is filled with wondrous things. I look out my window everyday and am amazed at what has been given to all of creation to enjoy.
As for asking "Why would God....", you are giving human attributes to a being that is not in any way human. So the question is meaningless to a Deist.

 

[ThomasTN]

I would dare to say that the ability to reason and ask "Why?" is as equally inherent in humany's created nature as the ability to wonder at the wondrous universe. ;-)

 

[tumbleweed41]

I would dare to say that the ability to reason and ask "Why?" is as equally inherent in humany's created nature as the ability to wonder at the wondrous universe. ;-)

I would agree. Other than the assumption that we were "created" per se, although the result of humanity may have been intended,

 

[ManTimeForgot]

My own religion waxes towards deism, so I think perhaps I can field the question of "why" better than the "evasion" of pointing out that the question is logically inapplicable (even if it is technically correct).


Lets look at the nature of cause and effect. To the best of our knowledge all effects require causes (creatio ex nihilo is a contradiction of sorts); if nothing (as I understand it; nothing by definition must lack all qualities) has no qualities, then how can anything derive any qualities from nothing? The short of this is that nothing that exists can come from nothing (this is practically tautological: nothing = nothing and that's all that it equals even in part since it lacks all qualities).


With this in mind even if we are ignorant of the deeper structure of the universe we are aware that it logically must exist; something must be responsible for the existence of the 11th dimension and all the membranes that result in our universe being what it is. Well what is responsible for that? Eventually you reach an intellectual... impasse of sorts.

Either you are asking the question of "why" ad infinitum or you reach a stopping point because reality is completely finite (completely finite both spatially and temporally). If reality is completely finite, then you need something which is capable of violating causality (something immune to contradiction) because reality would have to have sprung out of nowhere (literally). And if reality is infinite then with infinite qualities your totality approaches perfection (aka God).

There is a cosmological model which does not "necessitate" God: eternal reality with finite spatial/dimensional nature. I will admit that I do not have strong reason for discounting this possibility (I have no more knowledge of the deep structures of reality than anyone else), but it seems inelegant to me. Why does reality exist? What's the purpose? If reality is purposeless, then anything within cannot be more than the result of probability. At the quantum level we have a universe of near randomization, and yet our world fairly close to determinstic. How is this possible? I recognize that none of these questions actually logically exclude this particular cosmological possibility, but it makes it seem... off to me.


There is more to reality than we are able to envision in our wildest dreams. I don't pretend to know for sure that God (First Cause, Prime Mover/Motivator, Existence Transcendent, Perfect Perfection, Ultimate Reality, etc or however you wish to declare what you are speaking of) is, but I do know that my subjective experiences and knowledge of the universe heavily suggest it.

MTF

 

[Peggy Anne]

Sometimes, I get tired of logic, and toss it right out the door. I get tired of analysing things to death, too. I do, however, try to be reasonable.

 

[AlsoAnima]

I think Deist are pretty different. I mean I can't talk about rituals, circles and altars with most of them... oh wait.

But seriously, Deists have their own thing going on. ^_^

 

[ayani]

i see what you're saying.

but a Desitic belief in a God or higher power and an appreciation of the ethical teachings of Christ Jesus don't really make for Christian faith.

Christian faith means that you believe in Jesus as the Son of God, who was crucified and is risen from the dead, that you belong to Him, and follow Him in the Holy Spirit everyday.

that's quite a bit different from being a deist who appreciates Christ as an exemplary ethical or spiritual teacher, but this Christian can appreciate the respect many deists do give her Lord, and i agree that if more Christians sought to follow Christ in life and not just in creed, that the Gospel would shine much more beautifully, and brightly.

 

[Peggy Anne]

Deists don't feel the need to convert people to an iron clad belief system. Christians want people to be assimilated into a group think. That's what put me off. Big Time.

 

[AlsoAnima]

Deists don't feel the need to convert people to an iron clad belief system. Christians want people to be assimilated into a group think. That's what put me off. Big Time.

Sorry, what?

 

[Peggy Anne]

Sorry, what?

I was asked to become a bona fide member of their church : Christian, and sign a paper stating that I believed that Jesus Christ died for my sins. I couldn't sign such a thing. That meant that I didn't agree with what they thought. If anyone attended their church, even as a guest, they were pressured to go "full time" and not belong to any other church.

 

[AlsoAnima]

I was asked to become a bona fide member of their church : Christian, and sign a paper stating that I believed that Jesus Christ died for my sins. I couldn't sign such a thing. That meant that I didn't agree with what they thought. If anyone attended their church, even as a guest, they were pressured to go "full time" and not belong to any other church.

Mhm. And, you assumed that this was common practice for some reason then?

 

[Peggy Anne]

after 4 and a half years you'd think this question would have been put to rest. What say you deists. Can we tie this one up in a pretty little bow or is it's shape too odd.

To my mind, the shape will always be odd. Deists seem to be very individualistic, and not mind set.

 

[DarkSun]

All this talk about who wrote the constitution and what are they, and what affiliation are the founding fathers.

Of course we recognize them as diests which just means they didn't think the bible was holy and they didn't believe in the trinity but they still had the Christian view with the Christian God right?

If that is the case then the diests who founded the US was based on Christian Views.

right?

There are many differences between deism and Christianity. Deism is the belief that there is a deity, but that we cannot understand its true nature. But Christianity is the belief in the triune nature of God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, the belief in a God who loves humans specifically, the belief in an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent God.

Deism is the belief that what defines right from wrong should come down to the individual's own conscience, their own reason, and their own logic. But Christianity is the belief that the Bible is there to tell us right from wrong, and that we should follow it blindly. Blind faith like that of a child's is encouraged in Christianity, but definitely not with deism.

Deism is very skeptical of the supernatural, of miracles, of things which cannot be empircally proven. Granted, through the use of reason and personal intuition, some things that could be considered supernatural may be accepted as real by some deists, but very rarely. But Christian doctrine is centred around miracles, the supernatural, and the holy spirit playing a direct role on our lives.

Furthermore, there is no set definition of what is and isn't deism. There are no denominations, no congregations, no ministers, and no priests. Over all, it is a highly individualised belief system, and what constitutes deist belief will vary between each deist. But with Christianity, there are denominations, there are regulations, it is not individualised, and there are very clear regulations on what constitutes Christian belief.

With that in mind, someone can be both a deist and a Christian. There can be a rather blurred distinction with some people, whereas with other deists, the line between Christianity and deism is more distinct. But IMO, there is a huge difference between my own personal philosophies and those of Christian faith.

 

[DarkSun]

I have posted this elsewhere, but will add it here as an explanation of my Deist beliefs, and the obvious difference from Christianity.

Articles of Reason
by Gary S Hudgens


1. Human beings are endowed by their Creator with the ability to Reason.
2. Reason and Natural Law lead us closer to the truth.
3. Reason leads us to believe in one God, or Prime Mover, who began Creation, and let Creation follow its own path, according to Natural Law.
4. Reason leads us to believe that all Human Beings are equal, regardless of race, origin, gender, or sexual preference.
5. We owe it to ourselves, as Reasonable beings, to act morally towards one and other.
6. God works within the realm of Natural Law, “miracle” and “revealed revelation” does not fit within Natural Law or Reason.
7. We owe it to ourselves, as Reasonable beings, whose very existence is dependent upon Natural Law, to be thoughtful caretakers of this world.
8. God, through Natural Law, gave us life. Reason leads us to believe that our purpose in life should be to live life to the fullest, and to ensure that all are provided the opportunity to do so.
9. Natural Law gives us Freewill. Predestination is contrary to Natural Law and is not Reasonable.
10. There is no “True Path”. As Science and understanding of our Natural world evolve, so too will our understanding of God.

I personally disagree with points 9 and 10. I'm uncertain whether we actually do have free will, but I'm beginning to doubt it. I also disagree that there us no "true path" per se, I just don;t think that anyone knows what it is (and nor could they ever know). With that in mind, I'm more inclined to agree with these points below. No offense.

Deism Defined
J Hardwick
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]1. Belief in God based on Reason, Experience and Nature (nature of the universe) rather than on the basis of holy texts and divine revelation. Essentially, through the use of Reason, God’s existence is revealed by the observation of the order and complexity found within nature and our personal experiences.

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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]2. Belief that the nature of God is abstract and generally incomprehensible which puts it beyond definition for humanity at this time. Furthermore, human language is limited and inadequate to define God; however, man can use Reason to theorize and speculate on what this possible nature is.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]3. Belief that mans relationship with God is transpersonal. However, this does not create a feeling of a distant and cold deity but of one in which God has a profound and unfathomable relationship with all of creation (nature) rather than just one aspect of it.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]4. Belief that humanity has the ability to use Reason to develop ethical/moral principles and through the application of Reason these principles can be used to implement moral behavior, which in turn creates a Utilitarian-Humanist morality. Essentially, humans can be guided by their conscience in matters of morality.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]5. Belief that humans have the individual capability of experiencing God, which is defined as spirituality. These spiritual experiences are multi-faceted and can include awe, epiphany, fellowship and even the transcendental. Essentially, each human is capable of having a profound experience of God and nature.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]6. Belief that God should be honored in a way that the individual believes is best and most appropriate for them. Individuals must determine for themselves how best to honor God and only they can develop how to accomplish this. For many, it is a multi-faceted and an individualized process.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]7. Belief in the principle of Natural Law that states that all men and women are created equal to each other with inherent freedom and liberty so that no human has more worth than another. Essentially, each human is equal in terms of the freedoms that they have and in the eyes of the law.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]8. Belief that mankind’s purpose is to use our God-given reason to understand what it means to be alive in every sense of the word (to live life to the fullest) and to act in such a way as to secure human happiness and contentment for all involved.[/SIZE][/FONT]
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[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]9. Belief that Reason and Respect are God-given traits to mankind and that we are to utilize them in all aspects of our daily lives thus creating a pragmatic approach to life. This includes respecting other alternative views and opinions of God (other religions) as long as they do not produce harm and/or infringe upon others.[/SIZE][/FONT]​