Are EVPs Near Proof of Intelligent Non-Physical Beings

[George-ananda]

It's an actual explanation rooted in reality as we know it, as opposed to one that provides no explanatory power like ghosts.

Spirits do provide explanatory potential for things so-called paranormal.

 

[George-ananda]

About as reasonable as saying all the multiple dozens of crop circles around the world are from aliens.

I was thinking about making that another thread topic. Maybe some are!

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

So your spirit box is being quite active, How does yours work? How do you know it's active? Do you hear things in real-time or do you have to play it back later?

Is it intended to capture spirit voices?

I had an unexpected inconvenience happen to me while I was walking around outside of the hotel a little while ago, so I'm back in my hotel room. I'm planning to stay here for the rest of the afternoon. You can send me a private message and ask me these questions, if you want to. I'd be more than happy to answer your questions in a private discussion rather than here in the thread.

 

[Tiberius]

Are you comparing living voices with discarnate voices. Two pretty different animals.

I dunno. The voice in the OP video seems to me to be a living voice (in that it was done by a living breathing person).

 

[SkepticThinker]

Spirits do provide explanatory potential for things so-called paranormal.

How so? You can't describe what they are, how they operate, or how to measure or analyze them in any way. You can't even show they exist at all.

So in essence you're saying "here's this thing we don't understand. The reason it's happening is because of this other thing we don't understand and can't explain or demonstrate."
How does that offer any explanatory power? I mean, what would be the difference if I just made something up and declared it was that. These EVPs are being caused by snerflebergers. That offers the same explanatory power that your "explanation" does, which is to say none.

And on top of that, you wave away perfectly reasonable and natural explanations that would easily apply (e.g. pareidolia) in favour if this unexplainable "explanation" that it's intelligent spirits.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Spirits do provide explanatory potential for things so-called paranormal.

I wanted to tell you that I appreciate your zeal for the paranormal, George. In fact, believing in the existence of ghosts and other paranormal occurrences has become more accepted in our society. According to one recent survey of 2,000 people aged 21 and over, 63 percent believe in the paranormal in some form. That means two-thirds of Americans believe in human spirits and aliens from other planets. Moreover, the participants in the survey said the most common unexplained beings they believe exist include ghosts (57%), aliens (39%), and Bigfoot (27%). A third (35%) of the people surveyed said they have felt an unexplained presence in their home, prompting them to believe that they’re being haunted. You can read more about this recent survey from October 2021 here: "ParanormalNation: Nearly two-thirds of Americans believe in ghosts or aliens." Here is another recent survey from October 2021: "57 Percent of Americans Believe in Ghosts — and Many Think There's Paranormal Activity in Their Home." As you can see by the dates of the articles linked below, believing in the paranormal has been gaining momentum over the last twenty-plus years.

Gallup Poll: One Third of Americans Believe in Ghosts (2000)

Americans' Belief in Psychic and Paranormal Phenomena Is up Over Last Decade (2001)

Three in Four Americans Believe in Paranormal (2005)

Brilliant Scientists Are Open-Minded about Paranormal Stuff, So Why Not You? (2012)

Spooky Number Of Americans Believe In Ghosts (2013; updated 2017)

Pew Research Center: 18% of Americans say they’ve seen a ghost (2015)

Paranormal America 2017 Chapman University Survey of American Fears (2017)

Paranormal America 2018 Chapman University Survey of American Fears (2018)

You Gov America: Many Americans believe ghosts and demons exist (2019)

Reports Of Paranormal Activity On The Rise During Coronavirus Stay-At-Home Orders (2020)

 

[George-ananda]

How so? You can't describe what they are, how they operate, or how to measure or analyze them in any way. You can't even show they exist at all.

So in essence you're saying "here's this thing we don't understand. The reason it's happening is because of this other thing we don't understand and can't explain or demonstrate."
How does that offer any explanatory power? I mean, what would be the difference if I just made something up and declared it was that. These EVPs are being caused by snerflebergers. That offers the same explanatory power that your "explanation" does, which is to say none.

And on top of that, you wave away perfectly reasonable and natural explanations that would easily apply (e.g. pareidolia) in favour if this unexplainable "explanation" that it's intelligent spirits.

In my view spirits are not these mysterious inventions as you try to frame it. It may indeed seem that way to mainstream science but I have interests in more than mainstream science. I am a student of wisdom traditions, Theosophical, Vedic (Hindu) and Spiritualist that do indeed have an understanding of what spirits are.

The type of spirits that might be involved in EVP are beings on the astral plane of nature in dimensions not directly detectable by mainstream science. These things are detectable (not provable to the physical senses and instruments) by psychic/clairvoyant senses we all have but of which some are more advanced/gifted.

 

[George-ananda]

I wanted to tell you that I appreciate your zeal for the paranormal, George. In fact, believing in the existence of ghosts and other paranormal occurrences has become more accepted in our society. According to one recent survey of 2,000 people aged 21 and over, 63 percent believe in the paranormal in some form. That means two-thirds of Americans believe in human spirits and aliens from other planets. Moreover, the participants in the survey said the most common unexplained beings they believe exist include ghosts (57%), aliens (39%), and Bigfoot (27%). A third (35%) of the people surveyed said they have felt an unexplained presence in their home, prompting them to believe that they’re being haunted. You can read more about this recent survey from October 2021 here: "ParanormalNation: Nearly two-thirds of Americans believe in ghosts or aliens." Here is another recent survey from October 2021: "57 Percent of Americans Believe in Ghosts — and Many Think There's Paranormal Activity in Their Home." As you can see by the dates of the articles linked below, believing in the paranormal has been gaining momentum over the last twenty-plus years.

Gallup Poll: One Third of Americans Believe in Ghosts (2000)

Americans' Belief in Psychic and Paranormal Phenomena Is up Over Last Decade (2001)

Three in Four Americans Believe in Paranormal (2005)

Brilliant Scientists Are Open-Minded about Paranormal Stuff, So Why Not You? (2012)

Spooky Number Of Americans Believe In Ghosts (2013; updated 2017)

Pew Research Center: 18% of Americans say they’ve seen a ghost (2015)

Paranormal America 2017 Chapman University Survey of American Fears (2017)

Paranormal America 2018 Chapman University Survey of American Fears (2018)

You Gov America: Many Americans believe ghosts and demons exist (2019)

Reports Of Paranormal Activity On The Rise During Coronavirus Stay-At-Home Orders (2020)

Wow, that's a lot of stuff. I think a lot of the increase may be fueled by the recent proliferation of information on cable TV and the internet; media that never existed before very recent times.

I think increased exposure to this stuff increases belief in the fair and open-minded. Before the internet and cable TV we heard much much less about this kind of stuff.

 

[SkepticThinker]

In my view spirits are not these mysterious inventions as you try to frame it. It may indeed seem that way to mainstream science but I have interests in more than mainstream science. I am a student of wisdom traditions, Theosophical, Vedic (Hindu) and Spiritualist that do indeed have an understanding of what spirits are.

The problem is that you are presenting them as such. You can't describe anything about them, including what they are, but you are claiming they exist and that they're responsible for a supposed phenomenon that humans have experienced. Do you see how there is no actual explanatory power there?

The type of spirits that might be involved in EVP are beings on the astral plane of nature in dimensions not directly detectable by mainstream science. These things are detectable (not provable to the physical senses and instruments) by psychic/clairvoyant senses we all have but of which some are more advanced/gifted.

Now you are introducing even more mysteries into the equation. Now you're claiming the existence of astral planes and different dimensions that are "not directly detectable by mainstream science." So how did you or anyone else detect them and how do you know they are there at all? Why can't anyone demonstrate any of this? Maybe it's snerflebergers. See how that doesn't offer an actual explanation either?

 

[George-ananda]

The problem is that you are presenting them as such. You can't describe anything about them, including what they are, but you are claiming they exist and that they're responsible for a supposed phenomenon that humans have experienced. Do you see how there is no actual explanatory power there?

It might be beside the point here but wisdom traditions like Theosophy do get pretty deep into details and have provided the most reasonable explanation I have heard for EVP.

So how did you or anyone else detect them and how do you know they are there at all? Why can't anyone demonstrate any of this? Maybe it's snerflebergers. See how that doesn't offer an actual explanation either?

As I already said I have come to believe in the existence of psychic/clairvoyant senses that can tell us about things in other planes/dimensions of reality than the observable physical.

If you require physical proof of the non-physical then that may be impossible. It might be like asking someone to capture an atom with a butterfly net. The coarse cannot grab the subtle.

If all you are interested in is mainstream science then EVP can be left a mystery or declared fraud and/or random noise pickup. You will not be able to get deeper through the current capacities of mainstream science.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Wow, that's a lot of stuff. I think a lot of the increase may be fueled by the recent proliferation of information on cable TV and the internet; media that never existed before very recent times.

I think increased exposure to this stuff increases belief in the fair and open-minded. Before the internet and cable TV we heard much much less about this kind of stuff.

The increased belief in the paranormal explains why some people are intrigued by my sensitivity and why they are so keen to participate in my paranormal investigations. I truly enjoy seeing the surprised looks on people's faces the first time they witness something paranormal and it can't be debunked by them, me, or anyone else participating in the investigation. There's usually a lot of freaking out and a lot of swearing that accompanies the occasion. On a personal note, I'm relieved that my children, who have inherited my sensitivity, don't have to be afraid of their gift or worry about being outcasts because of it. I'm especially relieved that my 19-year-old daughter, whose sensitivity equals mine, doesn't have to be afraid of her gift. I've taught my children how to accept their gift and embrace it if they want to. I used to think of my sensitivity as a curse, and I hated it, but my feelings have definitely changed. I eventually learned to accept it, embrace it, and use it to help other people, living or dead. I see my sensitivity as a gift.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It might be beside the point here but wisdom traditions like Theosophy do get pretty deep into details and have provided the most reasonable explanation I have heard for EVP.

What is that reasonable explanation? As far as I can tell, you haven't presented it.

As I already said I have come to believe in the existence of psychic/clairvoyant senses that can tell us about things in other planes/dimensions of reality than the observable physical.

If you require physical proof of the non-physical then that may be impossible. It might be like asking someone to capture an atom with a butterfly net. The coarse cannot grab the subtle.

If all you are interested in is mainstream science then EVP can be left a mystery or declared fraud and/or random noise pickup. You will not be able to get deeper through the current capacities of mainstream science.

Any evidence aside from someone's say-so would be helpful. So would some definitions. I'm tired of these, "I have special evidence that only some people can detect but nobody can adequately demonstrate to anyone else" claims that only seem to be used when it comes to "spiritual" matters but apply to nothing else in our lives, because they're basically useless in helping us get to the truth of the matter. I mean, how did you determine that anyone has psychic/clairvoyant powers if nobody can actually demonstrate anything to anybody?

Honestly, this just sounds like "I want to believe because I want to believe."

 

[George-ananda]

Any evidence aside from someone's say-so would be helpful. So would some definitions. I'm tired of these, "I have special evidence that only some people can detect but nobody can adequately demonstrate to anyone else" claims that only seem to be used when it comes to "spiritual" matters but apply to nothing else in our lives, because they're basically useless in helping us get to the truth of the matter. I mean, how did you determine that anyone has psychic/clairvoyant powers if nobody can actually demonstrate anything to anybody?

Honestly, this just sounds like "I want to believe because I want to believe."

I have found that the information presented by the wisdom traditions I mentioned provide a framework with explanatory powers for so-called paranormal phenomena that baffles mainstream science (like EVP).

I am convinced that the paranormal happens, so it is reasonable that we look for the best explanatory model.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I have found that the information presented by the wisdom traditions I mentioned provide a framework with explanatory powers for so-called paranormal phenomena that baffles mainstream science (like EVP).

I am convinced that the paranormal happens, so it is reasonable that we look for the best explanatory model.

I fail to see how your model explains anything. Like I said, you're just injecting a bigger mystery into something that you think is unexplainable, when in actuality there is at least one perfectly natural and well known explanation for it (e.g. pareidolia).

 

[George-ananda]

I fail to see how your model explains anything. Like I said, you're just injecting a bigger mystery into something that you think is unexplainable, when in actuality there is at least one perfectly natural and well known explanation for it (e.g. pareidolia).

And for me pareidolia cannot explain away this phenomena even by a longshot based on all the evidence I've heard from multiple independent sources.

Especially when there are Class A EVP <link>

Class A Voices are loud and clear, they can be duplicated onto other tapes. Can be heard without headphones.

 

[George-ananda]

But you don't. And that has been explained to you. You have highly biased interpretations of sound snippets. The sort of sounds that can be affected by one's beliefs going in. You were given a clear example of that. You had no answer.

Your evidence has all been "poisoned". Now there is a way to remove the poison, but you did not seem to want to do that. Another indicator that yo know that you are wrong.

Was watching a ghost hunter video today and here's one that was not spoiled by someone being told in the first place. Good investigators will try not to suggest to the listener what is being said. I heard 'They don't want us' just like the unspoiled client. Here's the clip. You can start at 2:00 if you want the quick version.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

And for me pareidolia cannot explain away this phenomena even by a longshot based on all the evidence I've heard from multiple independent sources.

Especially when there are Class A EVP <link>

Class A Voices are loud and clear, they can be duplicated onto other tapes. Can be heard without headphones.

Good article.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Was watching a ghost hunter video today and here's one that was not spoiled by someone being told in the first place. Good investigators will try not to suggest to the listener what is being said. I heard 'They don't want us' just like the unspoiled client. Here's the clip. You can start at 2:00 if you want the quick version.

Listening to the whole thing. First off they are not the ones that should be presenting anything to her. And they went against what they said. They tipped their hand.

 

[George-ananda]

Listening to the whole thing. First off they are not the ones that should be presenting anything to her. And they went against what they said. They tipped their hand.

They were just letting her determine if the voice said anything understandable without telling her in advance what it was. Sounds like a worthwhile experiment to me.

 

[Subduction Zone]

They were just letting her determine if the voice said anything understandable without telling her in advance what it was. Sounds like a worthwhile experiment to me.

They screwed up, they heavily implied that there was something there. You can't do that and call it evidence