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Are Gun-Owners Delusional, Dishonest, Indifferent or Just Ignorant of the Evidence?

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Referencing some different study findings than those noted in the OP article of another current thread, I wish to inquire about how to account for the contradiction between gun-owners' stated reasons for having guns and the facts showing the greater risks and lack of protection personal guns provide both inside and outside the home.

Surveys consistently find that the reason the majority of gun-owners give for owning a gun is for purposes of protection. E.g., America's Complex Relationship with Guns While this Pew survey found two-thirds of gun-owners asserting that protection is the primary reason for owning their guns, other surveys show as many as 88% of gun-owners giving this reason.

Yet, studies also consistently show that having a gun or guns in the home increases the risk that a family member or acquaintance will be killed or injured by firearm, either accidentally or intentionally, while providing no significant protection for persons in the home. E.g., from the review article, Risks and Benefits of a Gun in the Home, by David Hemenway:

The main reason people give for having a handgun in the home is protection, typically against stranger violence. However, it is important to recognize that the home is a relatively safe place, especially from strangers. For example, fewer than 30% of burglaries in the United States (2003-2007) occur when someone is at home. In the 7% of burglaries when violence does occur, the burglar is more likely to be an intimate (current or former) and also more likely to be a relative or known acquaintance than a stranger.[78] Although people typically spend most of their time at home, only 5% of all the crimes of violence perpetrated by strangers occur at home.[79]​

Hemenway goes on to cite data from the National Crime Victimization Surveys showing that in all confrontational incidents (not necessarily in the home) where a crime was threatened, attempted or completed, only 0.9% of victims reported using a gun for defensive purposes. Hemenway also gleans the findings of a 2004 study by Kleck involving 27,000 personal contact crimes, which found that the modes of resistance where the victim was least likely to be injured were running away/hiding, and calling the police (with injuries only 0.9% of the time in the case of the latter). In contrast, threatening the perpetrator with a gun was followed by an injury to the victim 2.5% of the time.

In the Chapter 1, Firearms and Violent Death in the United States, by Miller, et al., in Reducing Gun Violence in America, Johns Hopkins University Press, 2013, the authors report:

Kellermann et al. examined approximately 400 homicide victims from three metropolitan areas who were killed in their homes (Kellermann et al. 1993). All died from gunshot wounds. In 83% of the homicides, the perpetrator was identified; among these cases, 95% of the time, the perpetrator was not a stranger. In only 14% of all the cases was there evidence of forced entry. After controlling for illicit drug use, fights, arrests, living alone, and whether the home was rented, the presence of a gun in the home remained strongly associated with an increased risk for homicide in the home. Gun ownership was most strongly associated with an increased risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.[5]

[. . . ]

Household firearm ownership has also been consistently found to be a strong predictor of suicide risk in studies that examined individual-level data. U.S. case-control studies find that the presence of a gun in the home or purchase from a licensed dealer is a risk factor for suicide (Bailey et al. 1997, Brent et al. 1993, Brent et al. 1994, Brent et al. 1991, Brent et al.1988, Conwell et al. 2002, Cummings et al. 1997, Kellermann et al. 1992, Grassel et al. 2003, Kung, Pearson, and Lui 2003, Wiebe 2003). The relative risk is large (two- to tenfold), depending on the age group and, for younger persons, how firearms in the home are stored (Miller and Hemenway 1999, Brent et al. 1991, Kellermann et al. 1992).​

Citing a study that examined all gunshot injuries (both fatal and non-fatal) in the home occurring in Memphis TN, Seattle WA, and Galveston TX from 1992-1994 in which the gun involved was known to be kept in the home, Hemenway reports the findings:

Home guns were 4 times more likely to be involved in an accident, 7 times more likely to be used in a criminal assault or homicide, and 11 times more likely to be used in an attempted or completed suicide than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.[99]​

So how does one account for the contradiction between the primary reason that the majority of gun-owners assert for owning a gun and the findings showing that guns in the home increase the risk of death or injury to a family member or acquaintance while providing no significant protection to persons in the home, and the defensive use of guns outside of the home is extremely rare and more often results in injury to the victim than simply running away, hiding, and calling the police?

Analogously, if someone were to profess that he eats 4 tablespoons of salt every evening as a diuretic in order to lower his high blood pressure, most of us would recognize the (apparent) contradiction between his declared reason and the facts relating to consumption of that amount of salt. And there would seem to be limited ways to account for this contradiction: (a) the person is delusional, holding a false belief despite knowing the evidence to the contrary; (b) the person is merely ignorant of the evidence relating to salt; (c) the person is lying (there is some other reason he eats all that salt). At least, unlike the case with gun-owning, we cannot say that the person is knowledgeable of but indifferent to the risks to friends and/or family members due to his exorbitant consumption of salt.

It seems there are limited ways to account for the contradiction between gun-owners' declared reasons for gun-owning and the facts about gun-owning. How does one account for the contradiction?
 

M83

Too busy staring at my shoes
latest


Fairly accurate representation.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Referencing some different study findings than those noted in the OP article of another current thread, I wish to inquire about how to account for the contradiction between gun-owners' stated reasons for having guns and the facts showing the greater risks and lack of protection personal guns provide both inside and outside the home.

Surveys consistently find that the reason the majority of gun-owners give for owning a gun is for purposes of protection. E.g., America's Complex Relationship with Guns While this Pew survey found two-thirds of gun-owners asserting that protection is the primary reason for owning their guns, other surveys show as many as 88% of gun-owners giving this reason.

Yet, studies also consistently show that having a gun or guns in the home increases the risk that a family member or acquaintance will be killed or injured by firearm, either accidentally or intentionally, while providing no significant protection for persons in the home. E.g., from the review article, Risks and Benefits of a Gun in the Home, by David Hemenway:

The main reason people give for having a handgun in the home is protection, typically against stranger violence. However, it is important to recognize that the home is a relatively safe place, especially from strangers. For example, fewer than 30% of burglaries in the United States (2003-2007) occur when someone is at home. In the 7% of burglaries when violence does occur, the burglar is more likely to be an intimate (current or former) and also more likely to be a relative or known acquaintance than a stranger.[78] Although people typically spend most of their time at home, only 5% of all the crimes of violence perpetrated by strangers occur at home.[79]​

Hemenway goes on to cite data from the National Crime Victimization Surveys showing that in all confrontational incidents (not necessarily in the home) where a crime was threatened, attempted or completed, only 0.9% of victims reported using a gun for defensive purposes. Hemenway also gleans the findings of a 2004 study by Kleck involving 27,000 personal contact crimes, which found that the modes of resistance where the victim was least likely to be injured were running away/hiding, and calling the police (with injuries only 0.9% of the time in the case of the latter). In contrast, threatening the perpetrator with a gun was followed by an injury to the victim 2.5% of the time.

In the Chapter 1, Firearms and Violent Death in the United States, by Miller, et al., in Reducing Gun Violence in America, Johns Hopkins University Press, 2013, the authors report:

Kellermann et al. examined approximately 400 homicide victims from three metropolitan areas who were killed in their homes (Kellermann et al. 1993). All died from gunshot wounds. In 83% of the homicides, the perpetrator was identified; among these cases, 95% of the time, the perpetrator was not a stranger. In only 14% of all the cases was there evidence of forced entry. After controlling for illicit drug use, fights, arrests, living alone, and whether the home was rented, the presence of a gun in the home remained strongly associated with an increased risk for homicide in the home. Gun ownership was most strongly associated with an increased risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.[5]

[. . . ]

Household firearm ownership has also been consistently found to be a strong predictor of suicide risk in studies that examined individual-level data. U.S. case-control studies find that the presence of a gun in the home or purchase from a licensed dealer is a risk factor for suicide (Bailey et al. 1997, Brent et al. 1993, Brent et al. 1994, Brent et al. 1991, Brent et al.1988, Conwell et al. 2002, Cummings et al. 1997, Kellermann et al. 1992, Grassel et al. 2003, Kung, Pearson, and Lui 2003, Wiebe 2003). The relative risk is large (two- to tenfold), depending on the age group and, for younger persons, how firearms in the home are stored (Miller and Hemenway 1999, Brent et al. 1991, Kellermann et al. 1992).​

Citing a study that examined all gunshot injuries (both fatal and non-fatal) in the home occurring in Memphis TN, Seattle WA, and Galveston TX from 1992-1994 in which the gun involved was known to be kept in the home, Hemenway reports the findings:

Home guns were 4 times more likely to be involved in an accident, 7 times more likely to be used in a criminal assault or homicide, and 11 times more likely to be used in an attempted or completed suicide than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.[99]​

So how does one account for the contradiction between the primary reason that the majority of gun-owners assert for owning a gun and the findings showing that guns in the home increase the risk of death or injury to a family member or acquaintance while providing no significant protection to persons in the home, and the defensive use of guns outside of the home is extremely rare and more often results in injury to the victim than simply running away, hiding, and calling the police?

Analogously, if someone were to profess that he eats 4 tablespoons of salt every evening as a diuretic in order to lower his high blood pressure, most of us would recognize the (apparent) contradiction between his declared reason and the facts relating to consumption of that amount of salt. And there would seem to be limited ways to account for this contradiction: (a) the person is delusional, holding a false belief despite knowing the evidence to the contrary; (b) the person is merely ignorant of the evidence relating to salt; (c) the person is lying (there is some other reason he eats all that salt). At least, unlike the case with gun-owning, we cannot say that the person is knowledgeable of but indifferent to the risks to friends and/or family members due to his exorbitant consumption of salt.

It seems there are limited ways to account for the contradiction between gun-owners' declared reasons for gun-owning and the facts about gun-owning. How does one account for the contradiction?
How about a titular option that you're wrong?
Your title screams out that anyone who'd disagree is just plain ignant & crazy.
Smells like sanctimony & hubris, rather than an invitation to discuss the issues.

Your cited statistics don't recognize differences among gun owners, eg,
race, family, mental health, training, location, gender, profession.
Nor do they take into account armed self defense outside the home.
(The reason my handgun is at home is because that's where I store it
when at home, not because I anticipate self defense there.)
I've been thru these statistical arguments on other threads, yet I
don't recall your challenging anything I've posted there.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
I don't think gun owners are delusional.

There is real risk from other illegal gun owners and even legal gun owners.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
How about a titular option that you're wrong?
How do you account for the contradiction between gun-owners' declared primary reason for having guns and the empirical facts?
Your title screams out that anyone who'd disagree is just plain ignant & crazy.
I merely asked how you account for the contradiction between the majority of gun-owners' stated reasons for owning a gun and the findings of the studies relating to guns in the home and outside of the home.

Your cited statistics don't recognize differences among gun owners, eg,
race, family, mental health, training, location, gender, profession.
You need to read the studies before you dismiss the findings. Be sure to cite any study whose methods you criticize.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I don't think gun owners are delusional.
How do you account for the contradiction between gun-owners' stated reasons for having guns and the facts showing the greater risks and lack of protection personal guns provide both inside and outside the home?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I suspect many are just lying about their reasons for wanting to own a gun.

You use these other arguments because they sound kind of plausible. You want to justify the right to own a gun.

It's also a bit delusional to think there is not a safety risk to having a gun in the home.

The two main reasons I suspect for owning a gun is #1 they can. #2 It's cool.

People don't want you to take away their "toys". I know it's wrong to call guns a toy, but I think the sentiment is the same.

I don't think anyone wants the gun violence. However I suspect most gun owners don't see themselves as part of the problem. They feel they are responsible gun owners and should not be punished for actions of criminals.

Taking their "toys" away is punishment. Isn't that what many parents threaten to do to their kids when they misbehave?
 

Phantasman

Well-Known Member
Guns "should" be like insurance. It's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Guns, like anything else, get the bad rap due to the misuse by others. Drugs are no different and opioid's are becoming the next "thing that kills" being attacked due to their misuse as well.

If we got rid of stupid people, guns nor drugs would be the killers people make them out to be.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
How do you account for the contradiction between gun-owners' declared primary reason for having guns and the empirical facts?
Facts alone do not an argument make....they merely confirm your contention.
And then, you have incomplete facts.
You don't address the utility of those guns outside the home.
You don't address suicide, which is achievable by other means.
And you don't address the other factors I mentioned.
I merely asked how you account for the contradiction between the majority of gun-owners' stated reasons for owning a gun and the findings of the studies relating to guns in the home and outside of the home.
You see a contradiction because you painted a picture designed to give the appearance of one.
You need to read the studies before you dismiss the findings. Be sure to cite any study whose methods you criticize.
You've not weighed in on the other threads where I've discussed such things.
To go all thru it again, dealing with everything in your wall of text will demand
more time than I have this afternoon. And given the rather shrill prejudiced
title, could I possibly influence you?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I suspect many are just lying about their reasons for wanting to own a gun.

You use these other arguments because they sound kind of plausible. You want to justify the right to own a gun.

It's also a bit delusional to think there is not a safety risk to having a gun in the home.

The two main reasons I suspect for owning a gun is #1 they can. #2 It's cool.

People don't want you to take away their "toys". I know it's wrong to call guns a toy, but I think the sentiment is the same.

I don't think anyone wants the gun violence. However I suspect most gun owners don't see themselves as part of the problem. They feel they are responsible gun owners and should not be punished for actions of criminals.

Taking their "toys" away is punishment. Isn't that what many parents threaten to do to their kids when they misbehave?
I find what you've said here entirely plausible. More than that, I think you've hit several nails on their heads here.

One thing that I didn't make clear is that, except in the case of suicide, the risks of having guns in the home are not mostly risks to the gun-owner, but are greater for the intimate partner, children or others related to or known by the gun-owner.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Guns "should" be like insurance. It's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

Guns, like anything else, get the bad rap due to the misuse by others. Drugs are no different and opioid's are becoming the next "thing that kills" being attacked due to their misuse as well.

If we got rid of stupid people, guns nor drugs would be the killers people make them out to be.
How do you account for the contradiction between gun-owners' stated reasons for having guns and the facts showing the greater risks and lack of protection personal guns provide both inside and outside the home?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Facts alone do not an argument make....they merely confirm your contention.
And then, you have incomplete facts.
You don't address the utility of those guns outside the home.
You don't address suicide, which is achievable by other means.
And you don't address the other factors I mentioned.

You see a contradiction because you painted a picture designed to give the appearance of one.

You've not weighed in on the other threads where I've discussed such things.
To go all thru it again, dealing with everything in your wall of text will demand
more time than I have this afternoon. And given the rather shrill prejudiced
title, could I possibly influence you?
So how do you account for the contradiction between gun-owners' stated reasons for having guns and the consistent findings of the studies showing the greater risks and lack of protection personal guns provide both inside and outside the home?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
So how do you account for the contradiction between gun-owners' stated reasons for having guns and the consistent findings of the studies showing the greater risks and lack of protection personal guns provide both inside and outside the home?

I am pretty sure one can produce consistent findings to support whatever position one chooses to take.
 
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