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Are Hitler comparisons ever apt?

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
If you cannot draw sound comparisons, you cannot learn from history. To simply dismiss a comparison of Hitler and Trump on the grounds that there's something intrinsically wrong with comparing the two is to gloss over the issue of whether or not the comparison is fair or apt. If the comparison is not fair or apt, then by all means explain why it is not -- but don't simply dismiss it with no explanation.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Trump's attitude to Nuclear weapons may suggest otherwise.
In what particular way is Trump significantly like Hitler?
(No videos for me....just your own reasoning.)
I urge caution though, because if the criteria are broad
enuf, then Hillary might be hoist by this same petard.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
In a rat colony, as long as there are the basic necessities - which among rats amounts to food, water, a place to sleep - then rat society is quite respectible. The mothers take quite good care of their children, they are intelligent enough to work together for the common good, they even avoid pooping on each other and are very clean actually. They even play a bit, and teach each other new pathways across the street or onto the rooftops or to other locations of food.

But as soon as the food cuts off and water sparse - things change a lot.

I believe it is some sort of chemical reaction in the rat brain - but they notably change. Once the water is gone - something changes in the brain. Once that changes, they get sort of very nasty. Then if the food is cut off, another chemical (IMO) change happens in the brain.

They literally become a different rat. They don't like anyone sleeping near them. And if another rat does - suddenly they think "that rat hasn't urinated in a while (no water) and is staring at me too much (no food) so - I am going to take a bite at him".

Then next a bite and then a swallow.

Next thing you know, they start cannibalising on each other. And it gets worse - and "rat insanity" kicks in, some literally charge in a group and go right over the edge of the roof and fall to their death.

Why am I talking about this?

Germany. The "war is over" (WW1). Young men who were soldiers thrown into the streets, no jobs. The cold German winter comes. Some were just getting out of the hospital. Maybe they were hospitalized because of mustard gas.

Like Hitler, for example.

Even water becomes a problem in the pouring rain, ice. Food.

No place to sleep properly. Cold.

The brain changes. Especially living during a war, then the war is over and you lost and you are cold, thirsty, hungry.

The nice rat colony sort of starts cannibalizing on each other.

Hitler is more than a person. It is a chemical.

There were far worse than the many Hitlers in Germany. Oh sure, you can play the numbers game. But, for example, the Cambodian Khmer Rouge were far worse than the Nazis, even though less were cannibalized. Of course less - the population was less. Far more in China under Mao - but the Khmer Rouge were worse than the Maoists.

I think it makes more sense to compare some of these politicians to Pol Pot instead of Hitler. Sure - an exaggeration... but... maybe not, I mean if one of them ever got hold of the colony it could very well be Pol Pot in genre. I have no doubt, Michelle Obama would be the tutelary head of mass rat cannibalization. She would be much worse than Barbara Bush. Let Michelle get a hold of power than it will be a rat colony on rabies. Once the Khmer Rouge level, the chemicals hit the brain. Pol Pot is as much a chemical as a person.

Now if the rat colony has the water, and the food, and a place to sleep, then the extra chemicals do not build up. Some real smart rats help with the situation. But really, no rat has a way to make sure. I mean, no politician can or ever will, either. There is no such solution. Some rat may tell you there is. But no rat is really that smart. Not dumb, either. But not able to feed the world, and water for everyone and a nice sleep. Too many things can go wrong. Even a little earth quake can really shake things up. An astedoid.

The thin veneer of civilization.

Sieg heil.

You're comparing Michelle Obama to Pol Pot?
That is ridiculous.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
You're comparing Michelle Obama to Pol Pot?
That is ridiculous.
As has been said, we should not simply dismiss & gloss over the comparison.
Next, we'll compare Obama to Genghis Khan, Reagan to Alexander The Great,
Nixon to Gandhi, Bill Clinton to Caligula, & Hillary to the Borg queen
 

Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
What about when there are valid parallels? Also comparing there actions, rhetoric or rise to power doesn't mean they compare in other ways. So why or why not?

In a rat colony, as long as there are the basic necessities - which among rats amounts to food, water, a place to sleep - then rat society is quite respectible. The mothers take quite good care of their children, they are intelligent enough to work together for the common good, they even avoid pooping on each other and are very clean actually. They even play a bit, and teach each other new pathways across the street or onto the rooftops or to other locations of food.

But as soon as the food cuts off and water sparse - things change a lot.

I believe it is some sort of chemical reaction in the rat brain - but they notably change. Once the water is gone - something changes in the brain. Once that changes, they get sort of very nasty. Then if the food is cut off, another chemical (IMO) change happens in the brain.

They literally become a different rat. They don't like anyone sleeping near them. And if another rat does - suddenly they think "that rat hasn't urinated in a while (no water) and is staring at me too much (no food) so - I am going to take a bite at him".

Then next a bite and then a swallow.

Next thing you know, they start cannibalising on each other. And it gets worse - and "rat insanity" kicks in, some literally charge in a group and go right over the edge of the roof and fall to their death.

Why am I talking about this?

Germany. The "war is over" (WW1). Young men who were soldiers thrown into the streets, no jobs. The cold German winter comes. Some were just getting out of the hospital. Maybe they were hospitalized because of mustard gas.

Like Hitler, for example.

Even water becomes a problem in the pouring rain, ice. Food.

No place to sleep properly. Cold.

The brain changes. Especially living during a war, then the war is over and you lost and you are cold, thirsty, hungry.

The nice rat colony sort of starts cannibalizing on each other.

Hitler is more than a person. It is a chemical.

There were far worse than the many Hitlers in Germany. Oh sure, you can play the numbers game. But, for example, the Cambodian Khmer Rouge were far worse than the Nazis, even though less were cannibalized. Of course less - the population was less. Far more in China under Mao - but the Khmer Rouge were worse than the Maoists.

I think it makes more sense to compare some of these politicians to Pol Pot instead of Hitler. Sure - an exaggeration... but... maybe not, I mean if one of them ever got hold of the colony it could very well be Pol Pot in genre. I have no doubt, Michelle Obama would be the tutelary head of mass rat cannibalization. She would be much worse than Barbara Bush. Let Michelle get a hold of power than it will be a rat colony on rabies. Once the Khmer Rouge level, the chemicals hit the brain. Pol Pot is as much a chemical as a person.

Now if the rat colony has the water, and the food, and a place to sleep, then the extra chemicals do not build up. Some real smart rats help with the situation. But really, no rat has a way to make sure. I mean, no politician can or ever will, either. There is no such solution. Some rat may tell you there is. But no rat is really that smart. Not dumb, either. But not able to feed the world, and water for everyone and a nice sleep. Too many things can go wrong. Even a little earth quake can really shake things up. An astedoid.

The thin veneer of civilization.

Sieg heil.

Its sad how many people think that Hitler had some super-human power to mesmerize
people into doing evil, when war is just a result of population pressure. If not Hitler,
then Himmler or Goebbels. But there is a real danger in attributing imaginary powers
with superficial understanding of evil to historical figures, or even contemporary people.
The danger being, that doing this is to 'demonize' others in much the same way that
the Nazi's demonized the Jews. It shows the extent to which society is prone to such behavior.
Pathological social attitudes to things like drug-addiction (eg Philippines) demonstrate this clearly.

But there are some differences between rats and people. It may be that rats have some
rich human-like communication system, but most likely that they do not. We have records
of history, but those records are often couched in superstitious ideas about evil hypnotic
leaders that magically make people into evil killing machines. Still, we can think about it
more closely than the rats probably can. And then we get religion, which teaches us fidelity
and sexual morality. This is designed to stop the over-breeding problem. However, if people
impose sexual 'morality' with violence and punishment, then the young grow up with
subconscious sexual desires, and that actually often makes the problem worse.

Still, we are free to stop and think about it all.
But I did have pet rats, and they are really lovable creatures when in a stable situation.
But I am not aware of rats practicing family values, and limiting their own off-spring
out of conscious awareness of religious morality.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
How the Hitler comparison works.....

Someone thinks....
I hate Bob....really hate him.
He might do terrible things.
It's theoretically possible he might do really horrible things.
I hate Hitler for having done really horrible things.
I must stop Bob because he & his ilk are evil.
I want to rail against him in the worst way.
Logic! Yes, that'll do it!
If Hitler did really horrible things, & Bob could possibly do really horrible things, then I'l say they're comparable.
Nearly all politicians share some universal traits.
So Bob & Hitler will have something in common to justify the comparison.....
The use of rhetoric, attacking some group, appeal to emotion, sowing fear of the other, etc, etc.
Hey, presto!
Bob is like Hitler!
No one can deny history!
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
In what particular way is Trump significantly like Hitler?
(No videos for me....just your own reasoning.)
I urge caution though, because if the criteria are broad
enuf, then Hillary might be hoist by this same petard.
I prefer to contrast. He's different in that he has some money (theoretically). He's different in that he doesn't have a national party of his own. He's different in that he doesn't suggest genetic cleansing. He doesn't blame a particular group for all of his own problems and single them out as the source of America's ills.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I prefer to contrast. He's different in that he has some money (theoretically). He's different in that he doesn't have a national party of his own. He's different in that he doesn't suggest genetic cleansing. He doesn't blame a particular group for all of his own problems and single them out as the source of America's ills.
And he hasn't launched a Blitzkrieg against Poland.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
In what particular way is Trump significantly like Hitler?
(No videos for me....just your own reasoning.)
I urge caution though, because if the criteria are broad
enuf, then Hillary might be hoist by this same petard.

Fair enough.

1. Trump has suggested nuclear proliferation is desirable (such as with South Korea and Japan) which greatly increases the danger of a Third World War because it destabilises the balance of power based on nuclear deterrence. His willingness to use nuclear weapons in the Middle East against ISIS or even in Europe is destabilising in the extreme in terms of foreign relations say with Russia, Israel or Iran (totally ignoring the environmental impact of such weapons).

2. Trump is planning to speedily deport illegal immigrants from the United States. This will probably involve a massive police presence, fast track legal processes (if they are legal at all) and racial profiling to decide who is "Mexican" enough. Add "holding facilities" and you've got concentration camps. I think the Hitler comparison is obvious here if you swap Mexican with Jews.

3. Trump supports surveillance of "certain mosques" because he believes Muslims harbour and protect extremists within their community and that the U.S. therefore has a right to violate the fifth amendment (?) protection against search and seizures through invasion of privacy. (A police state directed against "subversive" ethnic groups such as the Judeao-Bolshevik myth is very hitler).

4. Trumps support for conspiracy theories is in line with the nazi propensity to see conspiracies everywhere and blame groups responsible without a presumption of innocence or burden of proof. He has already shown a willingness to reject climate change science as a conspiracy perpetrated by the Chinese to undermine U.S. Competitiveness and adopt policy positions on that basis. If Trump ever started changing the U.S. Legal system based on the suspicion of extremism, terrorism, subversive activity such as treating Mexicans as collectively guilty of being "rapists" or "drug dealers"- you have a nazi style terror.

5. Trump has tacitly supported the assassination of Clinton (the "second amendment people" gaffe) and threatened to use the U.S. Secretary general to investigate Clinton inorder to make sure "you [clinton] would be in jail". He has also supported illegal activities by the Russian government to hack the democratic parties servers inorder to subver the democratic process.

6. Trump values the "loyalty" of republicans party chiefs but only in so far as they enable him. He doesn't respect internal party structures or democracy (threatening to run as a third party candidate) insisting on obedience to a centralised and arbitrary political structure. His campaign organisation has the motto of "let Trump be trump" (borrowed from the west wing "let Bartlett be Bartlett) and has refused to take into account his own policy advisors when make policy statements or decisions. This is very much the "leader" or "furher" principle at work.

The one thing to keep in mind is that Trump has no coherent ideology by which to build a mass movement but hurlers ramblings were not that coherent either. Unlike Communism, fascism and nazism have strong and consistent anti-intellectual roots, meaning they simply appropriate prejudices based on what is popular for their own power. So a modern Hitler could easily hate Mexicans and Muslims rather than Jews or gays.

I could keep going but at this point I shouldn't waste my time trying to persuade you of something your not open to if that's your intention. Clinton isn't great- but Trump is in a different league and is really dangerous. The USA has never had a president this unstable from the beginning. Trump makes Richard Nixon look like stable, well adjusted individual. Nixon knew when to quit- trump doesn't. Whatever you think of Clinton, We cannot risk Trump setting foot in the White House under any circumstances. He is too dangerous to the Republic.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Fair enough.

1. Trump has suggested nuclear proliferation is desirable (such as with South Korea and Japan) which greatly increases the danger of a Third World War because it destabilises the balance of power based on nuclear deterrence. His willingness to use nuclear weapons in the Middle East against ISIS or even in Europe is destabilising in the extreme in terms of foreign relations say with Russia, Israel or Iran (totally ignoring the environmental impact of such weapons).

2. Trump is planning to speedily deport illegal immigrants from the United States. This will probably involve a massive police presence, fast track legal processes (if they are legal at all) and racial profiling to decide who is "Mexican" enough. Add "holding facilities" and you've got concentration camps. I think the Hitler comparison is obvious here if you swap Mexican with Jews.

3. Trump supports surveillance of "certain mosques" because he believes Muslims harbour and protect extremists within their community and that the U.S. therefore has a right to violate the fifth amendment (?) protection against search and seizures through invasion of privacy. (A police state directed against "subversive" ethnic groups such as the Judeao-Bolshevik myth is very hitler).

4. Trumps support for conspiracy theories is in line with the nazi propensity to see conspiracies everywhere and blame groups responsible without a presumption of innocence or burden of proof. He has already shown a willingness to reject climate change science as a conspiracy perpetrated by the Chinese to undermine U.S. Competitiveness and adopt policy positions on that basis. If Trump ever started changing the U.S. Legal system based on the suspicion of extremism, terrorism, subversive activity such as treating Mexicans as collectively guilty of being "rapists" or "drug dealers"- you have a nazi style terror.

5. Trump has tacitly supported the assassination of Clinton (the "second amendment people" gaffe) and threatened to use the U.S. Secretary general to investigate Clinton inorder to make sure "you [clinton] would be in jail". He has also supported illegal activities by the Russian government to hack the democratic parties servers inorder to subver the democratic process.

6. Trump values the "loyalty" of republicans party chiefs but only in so far as they enable him. He doesn't respect internal party structures or democracy (threatening to run as a third party candidate) insisting on obedience to a centralised and arbitrary political structure. His campaign organisation has the motto of "let Trump be trump" (borrowed from the west wing "let Bartlett be Bartlett) and has refused to take into account his own policy advisors when make policy statements or decisions. This is very much the "leader" or "furher" principle at work.

The one thing to keep in mind is that Trump has no coherent ideology by which to build a mass movement but hurlers ramblings were not that coherent either. Unlike Communism, fascism and nazism have strong and consistent anti-intellectual roots, meaning they simply appropriate prejudices based on what is popular for their own power. So a modern Hitler could easily hate Mexicans and Muslims rather than Jews or gays.

I could keep going but at this point I shouldn't waste my time trying to persuade you of something your not open to if that's your intention. Clinton isn't great- but Trump is in a different league and is really dangerous. The USA has never had a president this unstable from the beginning. Trump makes Richard Nixon look like stable, well adjusted individual. Nixon knew when to quit- trump doesn't. Whatever you think of Clinton, We cannot risk Trump setting foot in the White House under any circumstances. He is too dangerous to the Republic.
You list many things I dislike about Trump.
But they don't sound like Hitler.
Is Hillary the next Hitler because I can list authoritarian things I dislike about her?
Is she even more like Hitler because I find her the greater danger?

I admit just not being open to inadequate arguments that Trump is like Hitler.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You list many things I dislike about Trump.
But they don't sound like Hitler.
Is Hillary the next Hitler because I can list authoritarian things I dislike about her?
Is she even more like Hitler because I find her the greater danger?

I admit just not being open to inadequate arguments that Trump is like Hitler.

Put it this way.

Your in business. Imagine Trump is one of your employees. He would be too toxic for your brand to be a salesman. He'd sexually harass female members of staff, actively discriminate against customers and make racist attacks against fellow employees who he considers "illegals" and fails to pay his bills to his creditors. He has had multiple divorces and has cut of financial support to his brothers children over a minor slight. He never follows instructions, disrupts any organisation he is a member of and thinks he's above the rules to the point where some of his finanical activities are illegal and he doesn't pay his taxes. His CV consists of a series of bankruptcies and failed business ventures and has survived by a pathological propensity to lying and self-grandisement.

Strip away the "small loan of a million dollars" and his inheritance. This man wouldn't pass for working class because he's unemployable. He's a homeless bum on a street corner, or in a mental institution or in prison. He'd have nothing because he couldn't earn a dime. he has a right to free speech- but as an employer, his rights aren't your problem. That's what unions are for- and more than likely they'd be urging you to throw him out based on employee complaints. He has to work, make money but is entitled to nothing. The free market punishes based on rational calculations of profit and loss. A business is not a charity and it's not for welfare payments. It's there to make money and that's it.

Are you seriously telling me you would hire that kind of employee and risk your company on it with all the bad publicity and litigation he's cause?
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
People would be well served to view Hitler as a product, not a cause. This type of perspective encourages more apt lines of thought than overly-simplistic individual comparisons.
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
How the Hitler comparison works.....

Someone thinks....
I hate Bob....really hate him.
He might do terrible things.
It's theoretically possible he might do really horrible things.
I hate Hitler for having done really horrible things.
I must stop Bob because he & his ilk are evil.
I want to rail against him in the worst way.
Logic! Yes, that'll do it!
If Hitler did really horrible things, & Bob could possibly do really horrible things, then I'l say they're comparable.
Nearly all politicians share some universal traits.
So Bob & Hitler will have something in common to justify the comparison.....
The use of rhetoric, attacking some group, appeal to emotion, sowing fear of the other, etc, etc.
Hey, presto!
Bob is like Hitler!
No one can deny history!
Gross over simplication. Gross misrepresentation and painting anyone who does this in a broad brush. So try again.
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
People would be well served to view Hitler as a product, not a cause. This type of perspective encourages more apt lines of thought than overly-simplistic individual comparisons.
I found this post wise. I tend to view all things, people and events as products of there environment
 

Parchment

Active Member
What about when there are valid parallels? Also comparing there actions, rhetoric or rise to power doesn't mean they compare in other ways. So why or why not?
There is no valid parallels, it just seems more rhetoric. Enjoy Kristmas!
Those little girls seemed to be enjoying themselves, No?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
And he hasn't launched a Blitzkrieg against Poland.
Well, he hasn't invaded Mexico yet.
But it is pretty obvious who the main target of his nativist demagoguery is. To keep that narrative going he'll have to do something after the election.
How else will he make good on the promise that Mexico will pay for the wall?
It would be different if I thought that Usonian people were too informed and ethical to support an invasion based on Trumped up nonsense.

But I remember 2002 and the build up to invading Iraq all too well.
Tom
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Put it this way.

Your in business. Imagine Trump is one of your employees. He would be too toxic for your brand to be a salesman. He'd sexually harass female members of staff, actively discriminate against customers and make racist attacks against fellow employees who he considers "illegals" and fails to pay his bills to his creditors. He has had multiple divorces and has cut of financial support to his brothers children over a minor slight. He never follows instructions, disrupts any organisation he is a member of and thinks he's above the rules to the point where some of his finanical activities are illegal and he doesn't pay his taxes. His CV consists of a series of bankruptcies and failed business ventures and has survived by a pathological propensity to lying and self-grandisement.

Strip away the "small loan of a million dollars" and his inheritance. This man wouldn't pass for working class because he's unemployable. He's a homeless bum on a street corner, or in a mental institution or in prison. He'd have nothing because he couldn't earn a dime. he has a right to free speech- but as an employer, his rights aren't your problem. That's what unions are for- and more than likely they'd be urging you to throw him out based on employee complaints. He has to work, make money but is entitled to nothing. The free market punishes based on rational calculations of profit and loss. A business is not a charity and it's not for welfare payments. It's there to make money and that's it.

Are you seriously telling me you would hire that kind of employee and risk your company on it with all the bad publicity and litigation he's cause?
You certainly describe an awful person, one I wouldn't employ.
But he's no Hitler.
 
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