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Are Humans Animals

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
debatable apparently

Study: Man did not evolve from apes - UPI.com
www.upi.com › Science News
  1. Cached
Oct 1, 2009 - A U.S. biological anthropologist says he's determined humans did not evolve from apes



we are distinct in pondering these things at all,

and we also use cutlery! :)
This article is weird. Not only because it's trying to set this weirdly specific view of what apes are, but it's hinting at a humans from chimps connection nobody is actually asserting. Chimps didn't evolve from humans, nor did humans evolve from Chimps. Chimps and humans share an extinct great ape ancestor that was neither human nor chimp, but was a ape.
Domestic cats descended from wild cat ancestors, but they didn't decent from lions and Tigers. But lions and Tigers and domestic cats share a common wildcat ancestor.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
The vast majority of species on this planet went extinct long before humans got here. Heck, if we detonated every nuclear device in every arsenal it wouldn't equal to the K-pg meteor. Nature was harsh and unforgiving before us, it probably will be after us, too.
True enough...but humans are so much more moderate and forgiving than nature, eh? As long as it's to humans, or our preferred domestic species...and not even always then...
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Yes and No.

Yes because we share four basic instincts with animals (eating,sleeping,mating and defending)

No because we have the capacity for moral understanding, while animals don't (and this grants us certain rights not awarded to other animals).
AND, I would add, certain responsibilities not required of other animals...
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
True enough...but humans are so much more moderate and forgiving than nature, eh? As long as it's to humans, or our preferred domestic species...and not even always then...
It's true, but there are plenty of other animal arseholes out there. Porpoises which torture fish and other mammals to death, cats which kill without being hungry so much that they have made some wild birds go extinct, ducks and their obscene rape behavior. They may not have the same sort of rationalizing intelligence we do, but moderate and forgiving they are not haha.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
We share some vague physical similarities, that's about all we can say for sure. It's a semantic question mostly but I would vote no, we are distinct from the animals.
We share numerous physical similarities that are not vague but rather quite clear, and we also share about 96% genetic similarity with chimpanzees and bonobos. It has nothing to do with semantics, but what we know through paleontology and biology.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
It's true, but there are plenty of other animal arseholes out there. Porpoises which torture fish and other mammals to death, cats which kill without being hungry so much that they have made some wild birds go extinct, ducks and their obscene rape behavior. They may not have the same sort of rationalizing intelligence we do, but moderate and forgiving they are not haha.
So, humans are not alone in being arses, just as we are not alone in making tools, being self-aware, and all those other things that supposedly make us "distinct" from all other animals...at most, we differ in degree and not kind, and share both the best and the worst of our kin...
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
AND, I would add, certain responsibilities not required of other animals...
I both agree and disagree with this. I don't believe there's any cosmic responsibility imparted towards humans that they must be caretakers of the Earth. To suggest so, to me, is the same sort of hubris which suggests the earth is made for us. I don't believe nature in any sense cares what we as humans decide to do.
I think it's in our best interest to minimize damage to our ecosystem, and I'm all for curbing needless suffering of both human and non-human animals. But nature doesn't innately care if an overspecialized and already evolutionarily limited animal like pandas go extinct. And we only care because it's part of a status quo we know and enjoy. And cute fuzzy animals tend to be more highly valued than, say, the less appealing key indicator species like various insects, amphibians, fish and reptiles.
 

Jeremiahcp

Well-Known Jerk
and we also use cutlery! :)

hqdefault.jpg
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
I both agree and disagree with this. I don't believe there's any cosmic responsibility imparted towards humans that they must be caretakers of the Earth. To suggest so, to me, is the same sort of hubris which suggests the earth is made for us. I don't believe nature in any sense cares what we as humans decide to do.
I think it's in our best interest to minimize damage to our ecosystem, and I'm all for curbing needless suffering of both human and non-human animals. But nature doesn't innately care if an overspecialized and already evolutionarily limited animal like pandas go extinct. And we only care because it's part of a status quo we know and enjoy. And cute fuzzy animals tend to be more highly valued than, say, the less appealing key indicator species like various insects, amphibians, fish and reptiles.
If a human can assert that Because We Are, We Have Rights That Are Not Available to Others, that, too is hubris. Rights and responsibilities are human constructs (and perhaps of others as well...). Few of our Philosophers have ever focused on this aspect, because it tends to limit what we might be able to do by exercising our rights. I want the right to free speech...without the responsibility of being accountable for the consequences of my speech, for example.

In nature, every new life has the right to try to succeed; most never get to adulthood, and never get to reproduce (which is biological success). Each has the responsibility of dying and contributing to someone else's success--a responsibility that is enforced by others. If they do succeed, to become an adult and reproduce, they have a responsibility to give their offspring a chance to succeed...they cannot and do not horde all the resources, so they can be fat and happy and have plenty of reserves set aside against future need. Their responsibility is to take no more than they need, leaving the rest for others--and in fact, attempting to take more than one can use tends to make one less successful.

For example, the pair of Cooper's Hawks that have claimed the territory that includes our house have the right to select, and defend from others, if they can, access to the resources here. If they try to take too many resources, they will undermine their own (and their offsprings') ability to survive. If they try to control a larger area, they will find they are weakened because it takes much more energy to patrol a larger territory...

Humans have gotten rid of virtually all the limits in their pursuit of their right to survive and have offspring...and only a handful of humans today get to claim vast territories and resources, enforced by the social system, without responsibility to leave excess for others. The result is that some humans have excess, while most eck by with the absolute minimum that the few let drop, or that they can scrape up on their own.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
This article is weird. Not only because it's trying to set this weirdly specific view of what apes are, but it's hinting at a humans from chimps connection nobody is actually asserting. Chimps didn't evolve from humans, nor did humans evolve from Chimps. Chimps and humans share an extinct great ape ancestor that was neither human nor chimp, but was a ape.
Domestic cats descended from wild cat ancestors, but they didn't decent from lions and Tigers. But lions and Tigers and domestic cats share a common wildcat ancestor.

Yes, and so we see the same pattern emerging across species- where once confidently assumed direct branches/ transitions from one species to another, have been thrown into doubt- and the common ancestor is once again pushed back into the realm of hypothetical speculation and artistic impressions

'Birds from dinosaurs' being another stark example.

As David Raup, curator of the Chicago Field museum said, we have less examples of transitional species now than in Darwin's time, [because they keep getting debunked]
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
We share numerous physical similarities that are not vague but rather quite clear, and we also share about 96% genetic similarity with chimpanzees and bonobos. It has nothing to do with semantics, but what we know through paleontology and biology.

we also share about 50% genetic similarity with bananas, our ancient ancestors?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
This article is weird. Not only because it's trying to set this weirdly specific view of what apes are, but it's hinting at a humans from chimps connection nobody is actually asserting. Chimps didn't evolve from humans, nor did humans evolve from Chimps. Chimps and humans share an extinct great ape ancestor that was neither human nor chimp, but was a ape.

The UPI article, which is very short, doesn't do a very good job of capturing Lovejoy's idea. Here is a full write up....

http://www.pnas.org/content/112/16/4877.full
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Are Humans Animals

The answer is that it depends on how you are using the word 'animal'. Meaning 1 or 2, as both are valid uses of the word.

Definition of animal

  1. 1 : any of a kingdom (Animalia) of living things including many-celled organisms and often many of the single-celled ones (such as protozoans ) that typically differ from plants in having cells without cellulose walls, in lacking chlorophyll and the capacity for photosynthesis, in requiring more complex food materials (such as proteins ), in being organized to a greater degree of complexity, and in having the capacity for spontaneous movement and rapid motor responses to stimulation

  2. 2a : one of the lower animals (see 3lower 3) as distinguished from human beingsb : mammal; broadly : vertebrate
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Are Humans Animals

The answer is that it depends on how you are using the word 'animal'. Meaning 1 or 2, as both are valid uses of the word.

Definition of animal

  1. 1 : any of a kingdom (Animalia) of living things including many-celled organisms and often many of the single-celled ones (such as protozoans ) that typically differ from plants in having cells without cellulose walls, in lacking chlorophyll and the capacity for photosynthesis, in requiring more complex food materials (such as proteins ), in being organized to a greater degree of complexity, and in having the capacity for spontaneous movement and rapid motor responses to stimulation

  2. 2a : one of the lower animals (see 3lower 3) as distinguished from human beingsb : mammal; broadly : vertebrate
And why is there such a distinction? Because humans created ALL of the usages, which includes our conceit that there are "lower" and "higher" animals, and the humans are the highest--which is rooted in religious mythology or in the mythology of social darwinism...We're either the peak of creation, or the peak of evolution, and either way, we're the peak of all living things...
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
And why is there such a distinction? Because humans created ALL of the usages, which includes our conceit that there are "lower" and "higher" animals, and the humans are the highest--which is rooted in religious mythology or in the mythology of social darwinism...We're either the peak of creation, or the peak of evolution, and either way, we're the peak of all living things...
Yes, words are of course human creations. A word that separates humans from the rest of living things has its function in communication. it is not a conceit thing.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
we didn't descend from bananas, despite having so many 'similarities' - and we can't draw that assumption from apes either
No, we didn't descend from bananas. We did descend from a common ancestor that led to both sets of species. Just as we descended from an ancestor common to all the great apes...who also, like us, share a common ancestor with bananas.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, and so we see the same pattern emerging across species- where once confidently assumed direct branches/ transitions from one species to another, have been thrown into doubt- and the common ancestor is once again pushed back into the realm of hypothetical speculation and artistic impressions

'Birds from dinosaurs' being another stark example.

As David Raup, curator of the Chicago Field museum said, we have less examples of transitional species now than in Darwin's time, [because they keep getting debunked]
I'm not going to go over what we've already been over, (i.e. bird to dinosaur is extremely evident and nobody except creationists who like to quote mine actually doubt it) but based on a much better article than the one you provided, it's not challenging evolution or common descent at all. PNAS | Mobile
 
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