Are ISIL making the Sunni look bad?

[Rotcha]

Since Shia are of the other group, ISIL says they are Sunni. So will you say they make Sunni look bad.

In general i think its sad that Sunni and Shia have this grudge against each other. The same with catholics and protestants in the past, its just a dumb thing to kill someone over who is right and who is wrong. And instead just debate about it, i mean that is so much better. To find out the truth like that, and with less bloodshed.

 

[Matemkar]

Salam. Welcome to the forum. I hope you like it here. And thanks for you care for your Muslim brethren.

Ok. I will get to the topic. First of all, average sunni and shia don't have grudge against each other. For Muslims, the lives and properties of each other are forbidden to be disrespected. And, sunnis and shias have always considered each other Muslims. Hajj (pilgrimage) is an example to that. Only Muslims are allowed to perform Hajj in (sunni, shia, sufi, etc.) Islam. And never in the history has any denomination been forbidden to perform it or forbade other denominations to perform it. Thus, the consensus of Muslim nation is that all the denominations are Muslims. Thus, there can't be enmity among the brethren in religion. (Neither among the brethren in humanity. Imam Ali says; "People are either brother to you in faith or equal to you in humanity")

But, we can't deny that, there have been seperatist extremists as well in the history and today. Who claim that anyone but themselves are Muslims, and they tend to fight others. These "people" are usually called takfiris. Their first example in the history was the cannibal group khawarij. And sadly it has been resurrected in the last decades, with names such as ISIL, Boko Haram, Nusra, etc. But, as mentioned above, they don't represent the views of the consensus of Muslims, not even sunni Islam which they claim to subscribe to. Their beliefs are the likeness of Salafism and Wahabism, but even some wahabis and salafis consider them to be monsters.

But, the point is, some politicians use this sectarianism in order to achieve their goals. Again, I repeat, the conflicts among Muslims is not out of different views. The differences have always been there. But conflicts haven't, at least not among sects. Because, in the history and today, the fights were among those who wanted to "rule" the nations rather than serving them. The most bloody wars were that of Abbasid fights. It was not a sunni-shia war. Next comes the Ottoman-Mamluk wars and repeatedly Egyptian uprising among Ottoman Empire. All of them were sunnis. So, it was never a war among denominations. It was a war for power. And I don't deny sectarians sometimes have been used by the greedy politicians. But, we need to see that different views among Islamic sects were never a reason for fight. You may not be knowledgeable about history of "Muslim" empires-dynasties etc. But, I am sure, as you gave a likeness as an example, you can relate to this through the history of conflicts among the Christian Europe.

The problem is politicians fueling and using sectarianism for their agenda. Even in Syria and Iraq, forgetting about the past few decades, if we study it, we can see that there was never a conflict between denominations. It is the politics that start it and I believe it is the same thing that could end it. If there were never an invasion in Iraq, a western support for "moderate" rebels in Syria (more than half of which joined ISIL), do you think such insurgents could create a conflict and destroy nations? I don't think so.

It is mainly wrong politics of global powers and their puppets in the region (such as Turkey, Qatar, etc) which have supported these extremists. And it is ironic, they claim they want to stop it now. Maybe they are worried such terrorist groups can't achieve their aim of toppling Syrian government, and they want to do it themselves. Who knows. After forming and using a group, then you make excuse of that group and invade nation. Wasn't it the American govt's politics for using Afghani seperatists and making them excuse invading and plundering nations? Same goes for Saddam. Same goes for "Syrian" rebels. Same will go for Kurdish "freedom" fighters.

As long as such imperial meddlings continue, and that there are regional puppets who support conflicts for American project of new Middle Eeast and North Africa -as they admit it themselves, like in the below video Erdogan admits- I'm sure it will take longer to end this bloodshed.

[youtube]pZyV9eFxMTI[/youtube]
AKP Recep Tayyip Erdo

But, when such global and regional monsters who create conflicts are stopped, I am sure the world will turn into a transient paradise.

In any case, the problem is not the differences of views in kalam (theology), history and fiqh (jurisprudence) among Muslim denominations, or Christian ones, or etc. And a fight over who is right. It is not so. It has never been so.

Once, people analyze current politics without getting into racism or sectarianism, they can realize the truth. And when you do that, it doesn't matter which denominational differences you and others have, vigilant Muslims won't fall to extremism and conflicts.

But, I agree, getting to know the beliefs and practices of each other is necessary, so that believers won't fall for propaganda of extremists. And sadly, there is a lot of misinformation/disinformation our there against Muslims, namely shia and sufi Muslims as they are minority which goes like; "The believe in such and such. They do such and such." Thus, a person needs to study a denominations with the subscribers of that denomination. S/He does not have to accept it, but at least s/he will know the truth and not believe in gossips. And, when you do that, it will not be an unknown to you any more. Thus, you won't be afraid of that. You won't take actions against that. And so on.

Sorry for rambling. And thanks again for your concern, prayers and well wishes.

I know I did not adress the question in the title, but I am sure brethren here will adress it. Also you might check related threads in Sunni DIR as well.

ma salam

 

[TashaN]

It's a conflict generated and fueled by politicians. Only the clueless youth fighting in their name and countless innocent people are paying the price for it. What is happening is unfortunate and i hope one day things will get better again.

 

[Matemkar]

First of all, the world is not free after all. In almost every country, the nations are suffering from a ruling class, whether the ruling ones are the kings, queens, sheikhs, etc. or they have fancy names such as democracy, republic, etc. The world is not free, really.

And about the conflicts. You need to know that, certain powers first stir sectarianism and racism in under-developed countries. And then sellings of the arms. Invasions, plundering sources. And all else. And the people of "third world" countries suffer from invasions and wars directly, whereas people of the "free world" suffer from it indirectly.

In any case, shia and sunni brethren are not at war with each other. Only people who we call as "takfiris" (who are mainly salafis and wahabis) are determined to destroy anyone but themselves. And the sad thing is, they have been supported by the so-called democracy wishers in Syria and Iraq.

And, if you ask me, the so-called "free world" which is suffering from %1 as they describe it, should stop their governments from interfering the North African and ME countries in the name of "spreading freedom and democracy". And only then takfirism will be on demise, whereas sunni and shia Islam will grow popular and become successful inshaAllah. And only then, the nations of the "free world" also, will benefit from their governments which (shall be forced to mind their own business and) serve their own nations.

 

[Simplelogic]

Salam. Welcome to the forum. I hope you like it here. And thanks for you care for your Muslim brethren.

Ok. I will get to the topic. First of all, average sunni and shia don't have grudge against each other. For Muslims, the lives and properties of each other are forbidden to be disrespected. And, sunnis and shias have always considered each other Muslims. Hajj (pilgrimage) is an example to that. Only Muslims are allowed to perform Hajj in (sunni, shia, sufi, etc.) Islam. And never in the history has any denomination been forbidden to perform it or forbade other denominations to perform it. Thus, the consensus of Muslim nation is that all the denominations are Muslims. Thus, there can't be enmity among the brethren in religion. (Neither among the brethren in humanity. Imam Ali says; "People are either brother to you in faith or equal to you in humanity")

But, we can't deny that, there have been seperatist extremists as well in the history and today. Who claim that anyone but themselves are Muslims, and they tend to fight others. These "people" are usually called takfiris. Their first example in the history was the cannibal group khawarij. And sadly it has been resurrected in the last decades, with names such as ISIL, Boko Haram, Nusra, etc. But, as mentioned above, they don't represent the views of the consensus of Muslims, not even sunni Islam which they claim to subscribe to. Their beliefs are the likeness of Salafism and Wahabism, but even some wahabis and salafis consider them to be monsters.

But, the point is, some politicians use this sectarianism in order to achieve their goals. Again, I repeat, the conflicts among Muslims is not out of different views. The differences have always been there. But conflicts haven't, at least not among sects. Because, in the history and today, the fights were among those who wanted to "rule" the nations rather than serving them. The most bloody wars were that of Abbasid fights. It was not a sunni-shia war. Next comes the Ottoman-Mamluk wars and repeatedly Egyptian uprising among Ottoman Empire. All of them were sunnis. So, it was never a war among denominations. It was a war for power. And I don't deny sectarians sometimes have been used by the greedy politicians. But, we need to see that different views among Islamic sects were never a reason for fight. You may not be knowledgeable about history of "Muslim" empires-dynasties etc. But, I am sure, as you gave a likeness as an example, you can relate to this through the history of conflicts among the Christian Europe.

The problem is politicians fueling and using sectarianism for their agenda. Even in Syria and Iraq, forgetting about the past few decades, if we study it, we can see that there was never a conflict between denominations. It is the politics that start it and I believe it is the same thing that could end it. If there were never an invasion in Iraq, a western support for "moderate" rebels in Syria (more than half of which joined ISIL), do you think such insurgents could create a conflict and destroy nations? I don't think so.

It is mainly wrong politics of global powers and their puppets in the region (such as Turkey, Qatar, etc) which have supported these extremists. And it is ironic, they claim they want to stop it now. Maybe they are worried such terrorist groups can't achieve their aim of toppling Syrian government, and they want to do it themselves. Who knows. After forming and using a group, then you make excuse of that group and invade nation. Wasn't it the American govt's politics for using Afghani seperatists and making them excuse invading and plundering nations? Same goes for Saddam. Same goes for "Syrian" rebels. Same will go for Kurdish "freedom" fighters.

As long as such imperial meddlings continue, and that there are regional puppets who support conflicts for American project of new Middle Eeast and North Africa -as they admit it themselves, like in the below video Erdogan admits- I'm sure it will take longer to end this bloodshed.



But, when such global and regional monsters who create conflicts are stopped, I am sure the world will turn into a transient paradise.

In any case, the problem is not the differences of views in kalam (theology), history and fiqh (jurisprudence) among Muslim denominations, or Christian ones, or etc. And a fight over who is right. It is not so. It has never been so.

Once, people analyze current politics without getting into racism or sectarianism, they can realize the truth. And when you do that, it doesn't matter which denominational differences you and others have, vigilant Muslims won't fall to extremism and conflicts.

But, I agree, getting to know the beliefs and practices of each other is necessary, so that believers won't fall for propaganda of extremists. And sadly, there is a lot of misinformation/disinformation our there against Muslims, namely shia and sufi Muslims as they are minority which goes like; "The believe in such and such. They do such and such." Thus, a person needs to study a denominations with the subscribers of that denomination. S/He does not have to accept it, but at least s/he will know the truth and not believe in gossips. And, when you do that, it will not be an unknown to you any more. Thus, you won't be afraid of that. You won't take actions against that. And so on.

Sorry for rambling. And thanks again for your concern, prayers and well wishes.

I know I did not adress the question in the title, but I am sure brethren here will adress it. Also you might check related threads in Sunni DIR as well.

ma salam

I truly appreciated this post and I have been challenged (as a follower of Yeshua) by the wisdom found in this response. Thank you.

 

[Matemkar]

Thanks a lot for your kind words.

OK. Here's a related news to the thread:

Lebanon's Coalition of Muslim Scholars: "Takfiri groups do not represent the Sunnis of Lebanon"

Lebanon's Coalition of Muslim Scholars: "Takfiri groups do not represent the Sunnis of Lebanon" - Rasa News Agency -

 

[Tiapan]

Groups like ISIL will come and go, it is human nature repeating itself. The Iraqi Sunnis are trapped between a rock and a hard place, ISIL in their backyard and a Shia central government that really doesn't care or is totally ineffective. The west went through a similar stage 500 years ago with the Catholics war against the Protestants. Its part of the evolutionary process where survival of he fittest will eventually dominate. It all takes time and remember it is only 100 years ago most of the Middle East were simple agrarian and nomadic tribes, even though in millennia past they have been great empires. Give them time and education and they will once more naturally evolve into more cooperative societies as their standard of living increases. Theocracies are far more prone to abuse of power than democracies because the Law often supports the Abuser eg ISIL, Taliban, and Aceh, Indonesia. At least democracies have mechanisms where the government can be kicked out if it misbehaves every 3 or 4 years. This is not the case in most theocracies.

I believe the only long term solution is to break Iraq up into its ethnic boundaries, a Kurdistan in the north, a Sunnistan in the west and Shiastan in the south. Also the Israeli "Taliban" should stop building new settlements on other peoples land, this is a thorn that festers as it resonates and is often used to justify the violence that is sadly typical throughout the Middle East.

Cheers

 

[Tiapan]

Sorry, with the new forum GUI, I didn't realize I was posting in a discussion group, I thought I was in the general religious debate section, you can delete this post if you want.
Cheers

 

[Smart_Guy]

Since Shia are of the other group, ISIL says they are Sunni. So will you say they make Sunni look bad.

In general i think its sad that Sunni and Shia have this grudge against each other. The same with catholics and protestants in the past, its just a dumb thing to kill someone over who is right and who is wrong. And instead just debate about it, i mean that is so much better. To find out the truth like that, and with less bloodshed.

ISIL make not just Sunnis look bad, they make all of humanity look bad.

Muslims that have things against each others because of sectarian reasons are radicals and Islam as I know it and studied, forbids radicalism.

Where I live I don't see any of those conflicts, I have Shia co-workers and my trusted car electrician is a Turkish Alawi, a sub-sect of Shia, I believe. They never told me directly, but everyone here knows that and they too probably know that we know.

 

[Sakeenah]

ISIL doesn't make us sunnis look because I don't think they represent us sunnis or muslims in general. I think they interpret Islam and shariah law in a way that suits their political and extreme views. Most of the sunnis and major sunni scholars are totally against their ideology.

 

[RAYYAN]

ISIS is an Enemy of Islam

 

[F0uad]

Salam. Welcome to the forum. I hope you like it here. And thanks for you care for your Muslim brethren.

Ok. I will get to the topic. First of all, average sunni and shia don't have grudge against each other. For Muslims, the lives and properties of each other are forbidden to be disrespected. And, sunnis and shias have always considered each other Muslims. Hajj (pilgrimage) is an example to that. Only Muslims are allowed to perform Hajj in (sunni, shia, sufi, etc.) Islam. And never in the history has any denomination been forbidden to perform it or forbade other denominations to perform it. Thus, the consensus of Muslim nation is that all the denominations are Muslims. Thus, there can't be enmity among the brethren in religion. (Neither among the brethren in humanity. Imam Ali says; "People are either brother to you in faith or equal to you in humanity")

But, we can't deny that, there have been seperatist extremists as well in the history and today. Who claim that anyone but themselves are Muslims, and they tend to fight others. These "people" are usually called takfiris. Their first example in the history was the cannibal group khawarij. And sadly it has been resurrected in the last decades, with names such as ISIL, Boko Haram, Nusra, etc. But, as mentioned above, they don't represent the views of the consensus of Muslims, not even sunni Islam which they claim to subscribe to. Their beliefs are the likeness of Salafism and Wahabism, but even some wahabis and salafis consider them to be monsters.

But, the point is, some politicians use this sectarianism in order to achieve their goals. Again, I repeat, the conflicts among Muslims is not out of different views. The differences have always been there. But conflicts haven't, at least not among sects. Because, in the history and today, the fights were among those who wanted to "rule" the nations rather than serving them. The most bloody wars were that of Abbasid fights. It was not a sunni-shia war. Next comes the Ottoman-Mamluk wars and repeatedly Egyptian uprising among Ottoman Empire. All of them were sunnis. So, it was never a war among denominations. It was a war for power. And I don't deny sectarians sometimes have been used by the greedy politicians. But, we need to see that different views among Islamic sects were never a reason for fight. You may not be knowledgeable about history of "Muslim" empires-dynasties etc. But, I am sure, as you gave a likeness as an example, you can relate to this through the history of conflicts among the Christian Europe.

The problem is politicians fueling and using sectarianism for their agenda. Even in Syria and Iraq, forgetting about the past few decades, if we study it, we can see that there was never a conflict between denominations. It is the politics that start it and I believe it is the same thing that could end it. If there were never an invasion in Iraq, a western support for "moderate" rebels in Syria (more than half of which joined ISIL), do you think such insurgents could create a conflict and destroy nations? I don't think so.

It is mainly wrong politics of global powers and their puppets in the region (such as Turkey, Qatar, etc) which have supported these extremists. And it is ironic, they claim they want to stop it now. Maybe they are worried such terrorist groups can't achieve their aim of toppling Syrian government, and they want to do it themselves. Who knows. After forming and using a group, then you make excuse of that group and invade nation. Wasn't it the American govt's politics for using Afghani seperatists and making them excuse invading and plundering nations? Same goes for Saddam. Same goes for "Syrian" rebels. Same will go for Kurdish "freedom" fighters.

As long as such imperial meddlings continue, and that there are regional puppets who support conflicts for American project of new Middle Eeast and North Africa -as they admit it themselves, like in the below video Erdogan admits- I'm sure it will take longer to end this bloodshed.

[youtube]pZyV9eFxMTI[/youtube]
AKP Recep Tayyip Erdo

But, when such global and regional monsters who create conflicts are stopped, I am sure the world will turn into a transient paradise.

In any case, the problem is not the differences of views in kalam (theology), history and fiqh (jurisprudence) among Muslim denominations, or Christian ones, or etc. And a fight over who is right. It is not so. It has never been so.

Once, people analyze current politics without getting into racism or sectarianism, they can realize the truth. And when you do that, it doesn't matter which denominational differences you and others have, vigilant Muslims won't fall to extremism and conflicts.

But, I agree, getting to know the beliefs and practices of each other is necessary, so that believers won't fall for propaganda of extremists. And sadly, there is a lot of misinformation/disinformation our there against Muslims, namely shia and sufi Muslims as they are minority which goes like; "The believe in such and such. They do such and such." Thus, a person needs to study a denominations with the subscribers of that denomination. S/He does not have to accept it, but at least s/he will know the truth and not believe in gossips. And, when you do that, it will not be an unknown to you any more. Thus, you won't be afraid of that. You won't take actions against that. And so on.

Sorry for rambling. And thanks again for your concern, prayers and well wishes.

I know I did not adress the question in the title, but I am sure brethren here will adress it. Also you might check related threads in Sunni DIR as well.

ma salam

This is not true.

 

[F0uad]

I have nothing against the IS, its not they who started the religious cleansing in Iraq and Syria. IS, is just a reaction on what happened over there, there are Shia's and other minorities living under IS territory.