Are Jehovah's Witnesses taught not to answer hypothetical questions?

[savagewind]

On the Hebrews 13:17 thing - don't both the KJV and the ASV also render the word "obey"? Πείθεσθε is the present imperative tense of a verb that literally means "to be persuaded about" or "to have confidence in". I think the word you are thinking of is ὑπείκετε which occurs later in the verse and does mean "yield". This is rendered "submit" in the KJV and "be submissive" in the New World Translation.

If you wanted a more literal translation of this verse then one might go for something like: "Have confidence in those leading you and be submissive..." - that certainly implies obedience to the teachings of those taking the lead in the Christian congregation - but the Greek word Πείθεσθε also implies an active attempt to develop or build the confidence (to be "persuaded about" rather than unquestioningly accept the ability of the leaders to lead properly) so its not blind obedience - rather, it is a confident "obedience" based on observing their teaching and life course (compare Hebrews 13:7).

Maybe you might consider that the writer intended a different meaning.

By a person's Christian behavior he can be persuasive to another person to be glad to take the job
of leader.

Maybe that is what Hebrews 13:17 means.

They and YOU say it means to obey those taking the lead. Maybe it means to be the kind of person who persuades the man who has taken the lead to keep at it.

God says you are all going to call those totally different scenarios the same. They aren't the same.

 

[savagewind]

The Jehovah's Witnesses and most of the world translate Hebrews 13:17 to be saying be persuaded by them to obey them. Please tell me why it can't mean that it is God's will that we be persuading them?

Not them persuading us to believe, but us persuading them to lead.

 

[savagewind]

OMG I am right! Who cares? LOL

Look at the sentence before Hebrews 13:17.

If we do that at Hebrews 13:15-16 believing it is God's will then men who are being called by God will be persuaded to lead such a wise, wonderful and honest crowd of people.

Do you want me to post the 100s of scriptures which lead me to believe that to obey a man instead of God is NOT God's will? No? Is everyone a Jehovah's Witness? <that's not kidding.

 

[Parsimony]

I agree - so would I. Now, since most of us are not privileged with direct divine revelations, how can the rest of us determine which is the true religion?

I suppose each of us have our own methods, but that sounds like a topic for another thread.

I have seen no strong compelling evidence for defecting to any other belief system. Do you have strong compelling evidence for any of them? Hinduism? Buddhism? Islam? If you don't, what is the point of this exercise? The conduct of their adherents speaks louder than their holy writings.

When I was in Christendom, someone showed me strong and compelling evidence that what I was taught in that belief system was completely false. It made me leave Christendom and become a JW. So if I can't accept a different scenario, presented in a compelling way that struck a chord in my heart immediately......don't look now, but I already did.

Actual evidence for other religions isn't the point. I find the value of a hypothetical scenario like this is not what it tells us about the world, but what it tells us about ourselves. For one, it tells us whether we have the ability to face things we are unfamiliar with or uncomfortable with. If we can't even bear the thought of something happening that goes against our beliefs, how much worse would we fare if we actually confronted something like that in real life? I think it is intellectually and rationally healthy to be able to answer tough questions instead of turning them away because they bother us.

 

[savagewind]

Actual evidence for other religions isn't the point. I find the value of a hypothetical scenario like this is not what it tells us about the world, but what it tells us about ourselves. For one, it tells us whether we have the ability to face things we are unfamiliar with or uncomfortable with. If we can't even bear the thought of something happening that goes against our beliefs, how much worse would we fare if we actually confronted something like that in real life? I think it is intellectually and rationally healthy to be able to answer tough questions instead of turning them away because they bother us.

This is so interesting as it goes along with my assumption that if Jesus himself were to tell any Jehovah's Witness anything different than what their "one mind" has agreed on to believe, they wouldn't believe him. They believe it HAS TO come through the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses for it to be true.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

OK let's play then - I don't know what I would do in that situation, so, as a Christian, what would you do?

Learn from Them and give my respects. Actually, I AM a fan of dharma. I find it to be somewhat more objective than "something is moral because Yahweh said so". Even gods and demons have to follow the rules or get punished.

All the first humans had to do was respect their Father enough to obey his reasonable command.

And all God had to do was know enough of human psychology to know that wasn't going to work, this dangling of the carrot and then complaining when they take the bait.

The Bible convinces me that it is the word of God.

God convinced me it's not.

If you are a Christian, why would you even do that?

How can you determine how strong your beliefs are if you never challenge them?

It really does have no bearing on reality for us...I live in the real world, not Fantasyland.

It is a fantasy that the universe orders itself to be comprehensible to you, though.

If you find it easy to imagine that your fundamental beliefs can be wrong, then you obviously have no Christian conviction.

If you shy away from being questioned ...

I mean, imagine you have some skinny geek bragging about bench pressing 500 lbs. He's never gone to the gym, never exercised, etc. On what basis, then, is the skinny geek bragging? He thinks he is the ultimate athlete and yet could probably be snapped like a twig with just a single sneeze.

That's the only way christians want to understand god is through physical text.

Not all Christians, though, just the ones forced into bibliolatry because they are incapable of sensing the spiritual reality. They honestly think God is incapable of speaking outside an old book. Heck, I have even seen some Christians claim that God cannot do ANYTHING unsupported by the bible, making the TEXT the REAL GOD here. Poor God ... such a slave to something that couldn't even be a thing before writing was even invented.

Perhaps it's not their fault. After all, there is a "God" region of the brain, where you can feel spiritual or divine sensations, but NOT EVERYONE HAS THIS.

It's not a fair question for anyone if you're representing a group or company. For example, NK and China just nuked Japan, do we respond Mr. Trump?

It's Japan. Voltron can wrap this up in a few minutes.

It isn't impossible to imagine. If I asked you to imagine a 5-dimensional object, then that would be impossible to imagine. However, imagining alternative historical scenarios is very much within the human mind's capability.

Not everyone's:
Are Today's Youth Less Creative & Imaginative?

The Enemies of Invention

I am a non-linear thinker. It's great for improv on short notice, but I also can't focus worth a ... SQUIRREL!

It's taken me awhile to realize that some people just simply and biologically can't simulate possible scenarios in their heads. Just today, while our lawn mower is in the shop and we're using that horrible manual rotary one, the stupid thing gets stuck on sticks all the dang time and my mom was trying to help mow but she started throwing a tantrum when the blades wouldn't rotate. I had to show her how to reverse the blades to get the object unstuck. She is incapable of imagining not only what is actually wrong (similarly, she thought the washer was broken but it was most likely she didn't close the door all the way) but also can't conceive of any possible solutions. It's ... FRUSTRATING.

Hinduism? Buddhism?

More consistency in morality and scriptures tend to be better written with fewer plot holes. For starters.

I find the value of a hypothetical scenario like this is not what it tells us about the world, but what it tells us about ourselves. For one, it tells us whether we have the ability to face things we are unfamiliar with or uncomfortable with.

There are a couple of famous psych studies where people pretended to be prison guards or another one where they had to shock someone who answered wrong ... they ALL thought they were good people, but give them this test and they became monsters easily. I think a lot of them needed therapy afterwards. Perhaps THAT'S why some don't encourage challenge ... they already suspect they wouldn't be up to snuff.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Learn from Them and give my respects. Actually, I AM a fan of dharma. I find it to be somewhat more objective than "something is moral because Yahweh said so". Even gods and demons have to follow the rules or get punished.


And all God had to do was know enough of human psychology to know that wasn't going to work, this dangling of the carrot and then complaining when they take the bait.


God convinced me it's not.


How can you determine how strong your beliefs are if you never challenge them?


It is a fantasy that the universe orders itself to be comprehensible to you, though.


If you shy away from being questioned ...

I mean, imagine you have some skinny geek bragging about bench pressing 500 lbs. He's never gone to the gym, never exercised, etc. On what basis, then, is the skinny geek bragging? He thinks he is the ultimate athlete and yet could probably be snapped like a twig with just a single sneeze.


Not all Christians, though, just the ones forced into bibliolatry because they are incapable of sensing the spiritual reality. They honestly think God is incapable of speaking outside an old book. Heck, I have even seen some Christians claim that God cannot do ANYTHING unsupported by the bible, making the TEXT the REAL GOD here. Poor God ... such a slave to something that couldn't even be a thing before writing was even invented.

Perhaps it's not their fault. After all, there is a "God" region of the brain, where you can feel spiritual or divine sensations, but NOT EVERYONE HAS THIS.


It's Japan. Voltron can wrap this up in a few minutes.


Not everyone's:
Are Today's Youth Less Creative & Imaginative?

The Enemies of Invention

I am a non-linear thinker. It's great for improv on short notice, but I also can't focus worth a ... SQUIRREL!

It's taken me awhile to realize that some people just simply and biologically can't simulate possible scenarios in their heads. Just today, while our lawn mower is in the shop and we're using that horrible manual rotary one, the stupid thing gets stuck on sticks all the dang time and my mom was trying to help mow but she started throwing a tantrum when the blades wouldn't rotate. I had to show her how to reverse the blades to get the object unstuck. She is incapable of imagining not only what is actually wrong (similarly, she thought the washer was broken but it was most likely she didn't close the door all the way) but also can't conceive of any possible solutions. It's ... FRUSTRATING.


More consistency in morality and scriptures tend to be better written with fewer plot holes. For starters.


There are a couple of famous psych studies where people pretended to be prison guards or another one where they had to shock someone who answered wrong ... they ALL thought they were good people, but give them this test and they became monsters easily. I think a lot of them needed therapy afterwards. Perhaps THAT'S why some don't encourage challenge ... they already suspect they wouldn't be up to snuff.

Good point.

bibliolatry

LOL I need to tuck that away. I know that the bible is a good source for christians to Understand god and their religious history. But not to communicate with him.

What did Abraham uave when he wanted to communicate to god? Moses? Shrugs

 

[siti]

I do not know how it is possible to think that just because Jesus is shown riding a white horse it means that everyone who rides a white horse means Jesus.

That wasn't the question. Is the rider in Revelation 19:11 Jesus? Or not?

If yes, then we need to look at the context - are there any similar symbolic images that link these two parts of prophecy? I'm not going to tell you - you read it for yourself and make up your own mind. Make a list of the symbolic features in each and see how many match. Think about the prophetic passages they are part of - are there similarities or are there profound differences. Are the prophecies about the same 'event' or 'sequence of events' or are they obviously unrelated? You need to do the same with Revelation 6 and Matthew 24. But go beyond just comparing single verses - there is an obvious correspondence between the white horse rider in Rev 6 and the appearance of the "Son of Man" in Matt 24. But don't take my word for it - read it - carefully.

 

[savagewind]

Haha @siti I was a JW for a lot longer than you were.

@Deeje must be proud an X is preaching their abominable propaganda.

Revelation 6:2 has the rider accompanied by war, death, and famine. The rider at 19:11 has Jesus accompanied by the Heavenly host. At Revelation 6:2 the rider is shown without any weapon. Can you see that? No?* I didn't think so. LOL Jesus shown at Revelation 19:11 has a weapon.

I am hoping you are kidding me.

OK?

*how good is a bow without arrows, do you think?

 

[savagewind]

Carefully! Ha; OK..........LOL

 

[savagewind]

Here is the answer. YES. It is, of course, Jesus pictured at Revelation 19:11. Even the worst fool can see that!

Now? How about answering my question? Do you remember what it is?

 

[savagewind]

I bet he was an elder. LOL

 

[siti]

They and YOU say it means to obey those taking the lead. Maybe it means to be the kind of person who persuades the man who has taken the lead to keep at it.

Absolutely! I think it means both of those things.

 

[savagewind]

Absolutely! I think it means both of those things.

So? Do you still believe in God? Do you still believe the Bible came from God?

 

[siti]

Haha @siti I was a JW for a lot longer than you were.

@Deeje must be proud an X is preaching their abominable propaganda.

Revelation 6:2 has the rider accompanied by war, death, and famine. The rider at 19:11 has Jesus accompanied by the Heavenly host. At Revelation 6:2 the rider is shown without any weapon. Can you see that? No?* I didn't think so. LOL Jesus shown at Revelation 19:11 has a weapon.

I am hoping you are kidding me.

OK?

*how good is a bow without arrows, do you think?

Ah! But suppose this "abominable propaganda" is right?

 

[siti]

I suppose each of us have our own methods, but that sounds like a topic for another thread.

Sounds more like a cop out to me. So same question for you. Suppose Jehovah's Witnesses are right to reject all viewpoints contrary to their own interpretations of scripture. What will you do?

 

[siti]

So? Do you still believe in God? Do you still believe the Bible came from God?

Suppose I do. What difference would that make to your response to my arguments?

 

[savagewind]

Hebrews 13:7 "obey"

Isaiah 2:22 Stop regarding man, whose breath of life is in his nostrils; For why should he be esteemed?
Why? Because the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses say so. Even the renegade JWs say so!

Jeremiah 17:5 Thus says the LORD, "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind And makes flesh his strength, And whose heart turns away from the LORD.

Psalms 118:8-9 It is better to take refuge in the LORD Than to trust in man. It is better to take refuge in the LORD Than to trust in princes.

Psalms 108:12 Oh give us help against the adversary, For deliverance by man is in vain.

Psalms 146:3 Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save.

Psalms 40:4 Blessed is the one who trusts in the LORD, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods.

Job 37:24 "Therefore men fear Him; He does not regard any who are wise of heart."

If Jehovah does not regard the wise at heart, pray tell, why is God telling us to?

Psalm 101:3 I will not look with approval on anything that is vile. I hate what faithless people do; I will have no part in it.

Why not tell us @siti how there was never a vile elder? I know there have been. Just take a look at the World's news.

 

[savagewind]

Suppose I do. What difference would that make to your response to my arguments?

Why are you not obeying them? Nevermind. Good bye.

 

[siti]

Here is the answer. YES. It is, of course, Jesus pictured at Revelation 19:11. Even the worst fool can see that!

Of course you can...

Now? How about answering my question? Do you remember what it is?

No - sorry - what was it again?

Do I still believe in God...etc.?

Suppose I do. What difference would that make to your response to my arguments?

Why are you not obeying them? Nevermind. Good bye.

Oh! Goodbye - pity you're leaving - I was rather hoping for some more of your demonstration of how much better you are at handling hypothetical questions that challenge your current beliefs. Oh well...as you put it...never mind.