Are many people only focusing on the "negative" in religions?

[Spirit of Light]

So you actually knew you were engaging in the fallacy?

Lol no I waiting for a comment that show how little many atheists understand about lifestyle. And you made the top comment of them all.

 

[Quintessence]

Well, one thing has certainly been demonstrated in this thread - the stories people tell about "religion" reveal more about that person than they do about religion.

 

[loverofhumanity]

In discussion we often find people only focusing on what they feel or think is "negative" of any religion or spiritual teaching.
Why is it so? Why do this people see all the good spiritual teaching add to someones life?

Mostly all spiritual/religioues people focus on the good of the teaching they follow, and if there is something negative, they try to understand why the teaching say so. Instead of getting mad or angry at a God or Buddha like those who do not understand spiritual teaching can do.

Why the negativity?

Hi Amanaki. Good question.

I think one of the major problems is disunity. If all the religions claim to believe in truth then why fo they reject one another?

Mark 3:25

And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

And throughout the world we see the ‘ house of religion ‘ collapsing because the religions are divided against themselves and so they lose respect and trust, only incurring criticism because they teach love and unity to others while they themselves are disunited.

Just my opinion and observation.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Hi Amanaki. Good question.

I think one of the major problems is disunity. If all the religions claim to believe in truth then why fo they reject one another?

Mark 3:25

And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

And throughout the world we see the ‘ house of religion ‘ collapsing because the religions are divided against themselves and so they lose respect and trust, only incurring criticism because they teach love and unity to others while they themselves are disunited.

Just my opinion and observation.

I agree that today many religious people speak badly about other religions, I think it comes from the chaos we will see in the end time. Religion against religion and non religious against religion.
Maybe focus only on our own path would be better, and not worry about what others say or do.

 

[Deeje]

I agree that today many religious people speak badly about other religions, I think it comes from the chaos we will see in the end time. Religion against religion and non religious against religion.
Maybe focus only on our own path would be better, and not worry about what others say or do.

This is so true....'spirituality' is not the possession of all, so trying to convey what it is to those who are not spiritual is like trying to describe color to someone who is born blind.
But seeing the chaos and disunity amongst the religious people of the world is also misrepresenting what spirituality is. It should never be a cause for hatred, war or bloodshed.

The unbelievers see the world in very material terms, whist the spiritually minded see it very differently. So who do we believe? Neither has concrete proof for their "beliefs".

IMV, God is seeking us as much as we are seeking him. It's when we meet that life begins to make sense. God is scanning hearts to see who is looking for him and why.....he is looking for those who are sincere in wanting to conform to his ways, rather than wanting God to conform to theirs. Those not seeking him, or who seek with a wrong motive, will never find him.

Why the non-spiritual here wish to destroy the beliefs of the spiritually minded escapes me, unless they must destroy all notion of a Creator because it might mean that everything they believe is false. But what if they are wrong and we are right? Who has the most to lose if there is a Creator to whom we are accountable? Maybe that idea makes them nervous...?

Perhaps this is why they need to really push the point? I cannot for the life of me understand why atheists even want to post on religious forums, when they can agree with each other on atheist forums and make each other feel totally confident about their unbelief....why the 'search and destroy' mission among those who "believe" something they don't?....

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Lol no I waiting for a comment that show how little many atheists understand about lifestyle

Invoking logical fallacies to make an obviously false point, has nothing to do with "lifestyle" and everything with poor logic.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Maybe focus only on our own path would be better, and not worry about what others say or do.

I'ld love that. The problem is that it is almost impossible to do when the religious try to stuff their religious rules down the throat of society, which directly impacts all its citizens - including myself.

 

[Deeje]

I'ld love that. The problem is that it is almost impossible to do when the religious try to stuff their religious rules down the throat of society, which directly impacts all its citizens - including myself.

Just out of curiosity....what religious rules are getting stuffed down your throat exactly?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Just out of curiosity....what religious rules are getting stuffed down your throat exactly?

You need to ask?
I'll just list a few subjects where theisticly motivated "arguments" are blocking progress and / or are otherwise standing in the way...

Stem cell research, euthanasia, abortion, gay marriage (gayness in general, actually), upholding secularism full stop, ...

And then there's also the many lobbying to hijack the science classes in high school to replace biology with "da bible".

Luckily over here in Europe it is a dying breed. While at certain times they still rear their ugly head to try and block certain laws or slow down the emancipation of LGBT and alike, they are becoming more irrelevant every day and have a achieved a respecteable level of irrelevancy already.

Not so much in the US though. There it is still very rampant. Perhaps even more then it has ever been in western europe ever since most nations turned into secular societies between 1 and 2 centuries ago.

You might ask "how is it your business what happens in the US?".
Well, it is my business because the US, being a superpower, has a finger in a lot of pots all over the globe and what happens in that country has very real repercussions in all those other countries where it has a presence.

This is why Europe tends to look with open eyes at US presidential elections. Because they aren't just electing a US president. They are in effect electing a new leader of "the free world" as they say, if we acknowledge the US being the "leader of the free world" and Europe being part of that free world. And in a sense, this certainly is the case.

So yes, we Europeans consider it very much our business what happens in US politics - considering it affects us directly and indirectly in multiple ways.

Having said that, I should also add that after 4 years of Trump, Europe has started to realise that we need to try and break free from the shadows of the US. Trump's slogan was "make america great again", but 4 years later, in hindsight it should have been "make the US irrelevant again". At least in terms of leadership.

They aren't irrelevant in other ways. In fact, the US under Trump has become quite dangerous for the entire world. But that's another issue, which has nothing to do with religion and everything with a cheating, lying, capitalistic prick.

 

[Deeje]

You need to ask?
I'll just list a few subjects where theisticly motivated "arguments" are blocking progress and / or are otherwise standing in the way...

Stem cell research, euthanasia, abortion, gay marriage (gayness in general, actually), upholding secularism full stop, ...

I really can't understand how "religious arguments" are even in the conversation with regard to political agendas.....after all it was Jesus who told his disciples to be "NO PART OF THE WORLD", so those governments who pretend to be driven by "Christian" principles are really proving that they are not "Christian" at all IMV. Politics and religion are a bad marriage. Jesus never forced his commands on anyone...they were always voluntary, driven by conscience.

Having said that....I can see where ethics might enter into some of those topics...particularly abortion and euthanasia. Protecting the rights of the living is essential to preventing abuse, but there can be valid reasons for both that do not break the laws of God. But abortion should never be considered a means of birth control.
The right to die should be up to the individual.

Stem cells also have to be ethically sourced as many would have issues using cells harvested from aborted fetuses. They are actually using fat cells from a person's own body to facilitate stem cells for repairing joints and other body parts. No ethical dilemmas there.

There is no such thing as a "Christian" government or nation in this world. (1 John 5:19)

And then there's also the many lobbying to hijack the science classes in high school to replace biology with "da bible".

I don't understand the problem of giving young people choices. The Bible contains some very good principles that the world could use right now. Creation is tied in with the reasons for our existence and our purpose here. If science can give us no purpose, what is the point of life? We are intelligent beings who demand more than animals do. We need to know what we are supposed to do with this life we are given.....but the majority are lost.

The creation account has been butchered by Christendom IMO, who confined the whole of creation into seven literal days when Genesis says no such thing. They depict the Creator as some sort of Wizard, 'poofing' things into existence, when the Bible indicates no such thing. I believe that the Creator carefully crafted all of his creation over many millions of years. He just condensed the account and did not add scientific details because science would not really come into its own until "the time of the end" when it would be used to "ruin the earth". (Revelation 11:18)

Luckily over here in Europe it is a dying breed. While at certain times they still rear their ugly head to try and block certain laws or slow down the emancipation of LGBT and alike, they are becoming more irrelevant every day and have a achieved a respecteable level of irrelevancy already.

Most secular nations are finding religion's intrusion into their lives to be no longer valid or binding, and putting into law what many people are now demanding.....surprisingly, this is what the Bible predicted 2,000 years ago.....the end of "religion". Even more surprising is the fact that it says God himself will destroy them.

Not so much in the US though. There it is still very rampant. Perhaps even more then it has ever been in western europe ever since most nations turned into secular societies between 1 and 2 centuries ago.

I don't think that any other country pretends to be "Christian" more than the US. On our news every night it seems that these "Christians" are not behaving like Christians at all....armed with all manner of weapons, it appears as if the the citizens of the USA have more to fear from their own armed citizens than from any outside threat.....but its up to individuals to wake up to this fact.

Christianity isn't a label...its a lifestyle that does not promote violence in any way. Christian is as Christian does. If you don't behave like a Christian, you can't call yourself one....not even if you have a bigger gun.

You might ask "how is it your business what happens in the US?".
Well, it is my business because the US, being a superpower, has a finger in a lot of pots all over the globe and what happens in that country has very real repercussions in all those other countries where it has a presence.

This is why Europe tends to look with open eyes at US presidential elections. Because they aren't just electing a US president. They are in effect electing a new leader of "the free world" as they say, if we acknowledge the US being the "leader of the free world" and Europe being part of that free world. And in a sense, this certainly is the case.

So yes, we Europeans consider it very much our business what happens in US politics - considering it affects us directly and indirectly in multiple ways.

All the nations have relationships with one another, but when money is involved, each nation is really out for itself. Economically speaking, the US cannot sneeze without the rest of the world catching the flu....or worse.

World leaders have proven that their relationships with others is a tightrope, where balance is too often lacking....it doesn't take much to tip them over into the chasm that they have created, be it economic issues or even alliances. Once you sign on the dotted line, obligations can be enforced....even against your better judgment.
Again, the Bible explains why human governance fails time and again......
God did not create humans to rule one another.....so the minute you give power to any person, it will corrupt him/her to the extent that that power is permitted to be used against others. Power is like a drug....it is very addictive.....and too often selfish and destructive.

Having said that, I should also add that after 4 years of Trump, Europe has started to realise that we need to try and break free from the shadows of the US. Trump's slogan was "make america great again", but 4 years later, in hindsight it should have been "make the US irrelevant again". At least in terms of leadership.

They aren't irrelevant in other ways. In fact, the US under Trump has become quite dangerous for the entire world. But that's another issue, which has nothing to do with religion and everything with a cheating, lying, capitalistic prick.

Well that is a discussion for the political forum......I am a victim of politics like everyone else, but I am no meddler in it, and prefer to stay right out of it. As a Christian, it is none of my business.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I really can't understand how "religious arguments" are even in the conversation with regard to political agendas.....after all it was Jesus who told his disciples to be "NO PART OF THE WORLD", so those governments who pretend to be driven by "Christian" principles are really proving that they are not "Christian" at all IMV. Politics and religion are a bad marriage. Jesus never forced his commands on anyone...they were always voluntary, driven by conscience.

So, you are ok with governments moving forward in stem cell research, abortion, euthanasia and gay marriage? You expect me to believe that?

Having said that....I can see where ethics might enter into some of those topics...particularly abortion and euthanasia.

And they are. Humanistic and secular ethics. As it should be, these are serious topics with obvious ethical implications. The problem occurs when the religious perspective forces itself into it.

Protecting the rights of the living is essential to preventing abuse, but there can be valid reasons for both that do not break the laws of God.

There you go.... "the laws of god". First of all - which god? Yours, I bet?
Secondly, these are irrelevant in secular society. These should be irrelevant in secular society. Regardless of which god.

Stem cells also have to be ethically sourced as many would have issues using cells harvested from aborted fetuses

For religious reasons.

There is no such thing as a "Christian" government or nation in this world. (1 John 5:19)

Tell it to the US politicians and many of its citizens.

I don't understand the problem of giving young people choices. The Bible contains some very good principles that the world could use right now. Creation is tied in with the reasons for our existence and our purpose here. If science can give us no purpose, what is the point of life? We are intelligent beings who demand more than animals do. We need to know what we are supposed to do with this life we are given.....but the majority are lost.

The creation account has been butchered by Christendom IMO, who confined the whole of creation into seven literal days when Genesis says no such thing. They depict the Creator as some sort of Wizard, 'poofing' things into existence, when the Bible indicates no such thing. I believe that the Creator carefully crafted all of his creation over many millions of years. He just condensed the account and did not add scientific details because science would not really come into its own until "the time of the end" when it would be used to "ruin the earth". (Revelation 11:18)

So many thing to say about this, I don't even know where to start. I'll just list some bullet points in random order:
1. science class is for science, not religion
2. biology is about the workings of biological stuff and the processes they are subject to, not about "the purpose of life" or your religion
3. here you are, using religion to defend the practice of stuffing religion down school's throat.

Most secular nations are finding religion's intrusion into their lives to be no longer valid or binding, and putting into law what many people are now demanding.....surprisingly, this is what the Bible predicted 2,000 years ago.....the end of "religion". Even more surprising is the fact that it says God himself will destroy them.

If you really believe that, then you have no reason at all to fight it. In fact, you should rejoice about it. So why don't you?

I don't think that any other country pretends to be "Christian" more than the US

I smell another no-true-scotsman coming up.
In any case, it's not "pretending". It factually is the case. The US has the highest levels of religiosity of all western secular democracies. Highest levels of fundamentalism and creationism as well.

Case in point.... if a US politician comes out as an atheist, it is the equivalent of political suicide. While in europe it is the opposite, if a politician publicly defends policies with religious arguments, then that is political suicide.

On our news every night it seems that these "Christians" are not behaving like Christians at all....armed with all manner of weapons, it appears as if the the citizens of the USA have more to fear from their own armed citizens than from any outside threat.....but its up to individuals to wake up to this fact.

Christianity isn't a label...its a lifestyle that does not promote violence in any way. Christian is as Christian does. If you don't behave like a Christian, you can't call yourself one....not even if you have a bigger gun.

There we have the no-true-scotsman.

Well that is a discussion for the political forum......I am a victim of politics like everyone else, but I am no meddler in it, and prefer to stay right out of it. As a Christian, it is none of my business.

So you're fine with a secular government establishing gay marriage? Just asking, it's not a trap. Genuinely interested.

 

[Deeje]

So, you are ok with governments moving forward in stem cell research, abortion, euthanasia and gay marriage? You expect me to believe that?

Is that what I said? Governments are free to implement whatever laws they like...it doesn't really matter to us. We will obey the laws of the land, but not if they contravene God's laws. We are all free agents, capable of deciding for ourselves what actions to take in any given situation. Just because governments move forward with any of those things doesn't mean that we will move with them. We march to the beat of a different drum you see, but we do not impose our rules on unbelievers.

And they are. Humanistic and secular ethics. As it should be, these are serious topics with obvious ethical implications. The problem occurs when the religious perspective forces itself into it.

Ethics do not have to be religiously based.....they are humanistic as they should be. The Bible often backs them up. We consider both, others are free to consider whatever they wish.

There you go.... "the laws of god". First of all - which god? Yours, I bet?

Well I'd hardly promote the laws of some other God, now would I? What is you beef with God anyhow? It almost borders on the obsessive. What has he ever done to you to make you dislike any mention of him?

Tell it to the US politicians and many of its citizens.

They are standing with their fingers in their ears whistlin' Dixie....

You can't tell them anything about their 'right to bear arms'.....bear arms are OK in summer, but they're a bit cold in the winter....

So many thing to say about this, I don't even know where to start. I'll just list some bullet points in random order:
1. science class is for science, not religion

Since science class teaches things that are 'assumed' rather than 'proven'....religion does the same....doesn't that make science class more like science fiction than science fact? What's the difference if you both teach "beliefs" about how we got here? Let the kids choose what they want to believe....what are you afraid of?

2. biology is about the workings of biological stuff and the processes they are subject to, not about "the purpose of life" or your religion

Biology is good for understanding the mechanics, but we are so much more than just our mechanics......
We have an innate need to explore and discover deeper things that give meaning to our existence.
That is what separates us from the animals.

3. here you are, using religion to defend the practice of stuffing religion down school's throat.

You are talking about stuffing unproven science down the throats of our children....we object to that, so we try hard to counter all that is taught in school these days that is opposite to what we believe. Kids need to be able to choose what they want to believe...not what you atheists want them to believe. We give them a choice....you seem to want to force them into submission.

If you really believe that, then you have no reason at all to fight it. In fact, you should rejoice about it. So why don't you?

Since the laws of the land in a democratic country are what the entire population is under obligation to uphold, just because something is not against the laws, but against our Christian conscience, we will abide by God's rules....for the simple reason that they always work out for the best.

In any case, it's not "pretending". It factually is the case. The US has the highest levels of religiosity of all western secular democracies. Highest levels of fundamentalism and creationism as well.

Sorry, if you believe that, then you have no idea what Christianity is. Its not a numbers game. Its about what you do, not what you say.

Case in point.... if a US politician comes out as an atheist, it is the equivalent of political suicide. While in europe it is the opposite, if a politician publicly defends policies with religious arguments, then that is political suicide.

Since none of my brotherhood would be involved in any of that, it really doesn't interest me.
The world can do whatever it likes, we don't have to join in.

There we have the no-true-scotsman.

Well the "no true Scotsman" argument applies to many things.....I'm sure you would not consent to be operated on by someone who claimed to be a surgeon because he read some of a medical text book once.

So you're fine with a secular government establishing gay marriage? Just asking, it's not a trap. Genuinely interested.

What governments make legal has nothing to do with our decisions. Just because its "legal" in a country, doesn't make it "legal" to God. We are not in the habit of lobbying governments to change laws to suit us.....we will abide by God's law regardless. We live in the world, but we are really no part of its mechanics.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Is that what I said? Governments are free to implement whatever laws they like...it doesn't really matter to us. We will obey the laws of the land, but not if they contravene God's laws. We are all free agents, capable of deciding for ourselves what actions to take in any given situation. Just because governments move forward with any of those things doesn't mean that we will move with them. We march to the beat of a different drum you see, but we do not impose our rules on unbelievers.

So, you are ok with governments moving forward in stem cell research, abortion, euthanasia and gay marriage?

Ethics do not have to be religiously based.....they are humanistic as they should be. The Bible often backs them up

And oftenly, the bible is in direct opposition of them also.

We consider both, others are free to consider whatever they wish.

In secular societies, only secular ethics are considered when it comes to the ethics of secular laws.
The point.

Well I'd hardly promote the laws of some other God, now would I? What is you beef with God anyhow? It almost borders on the obsessive. What has he ever done to you to make you dislike any mention of him?

I don't believe gods exist, so obviously I don't believe any god ever did anything.
The followers of said gods though, is what we are talking about.

Those who rally for continued oppression and discrimination, even persecution, of LBGT folks while waving with their bibles or qurans, for example.

Since science class teaches things that are 'assumed' rather than 'proven'....religion does the same....doesn't that make science class more like science fiction than science fact? What's the difference if you both teach "beliefs" about how we got here? Let the kids choose what they want to believe....what are you afraid of?

I'll not go down the rabbit hole of having to lecture you once again about your scientific ignorance and how science isn't like religion.

I'll just stick to: biology is science. Science classes teach science. The bible is religion. Religion has no place in science classes.

Regardless of you agreeing with the sciences or not - science is to be taught in science classes, not religion.

Biology is good for understanding the mechanics, but we are so much more than just our mechanics......
We have an innate need to explore and discover deeper things that give meaning to our existence.
That is what separates us from the animals.

I can only repeat myself.
Biology is about the workings of biological stuff and the processes that stuff is subject to.
It's not about "the meaning of life" or whatever other philosophical/religious things you wish to inject into it.

It is ONLY about the mechanics and processes that are active in biological things.
Just like physics is only about the forces of the universe and how they act on matter and what not. Physics, also, is not about the meaning of life or whatever purpose your religion says exists.

And the same goes for geology, chemistry, etc etc etc.

You are talking about stuffing unproven science down the throats of our children....we object to that, so we try hard to counter all that is taught in school these days that is opposite to what we believe. Kids need to be able to choose what they want to believe...not what you atheists want them to believe. We give them a choice....you seem to want to force them into submission.

1. many theists are biologists
2. science is for science classes, regardless of you agreeing with the science or not
3. your conspiracy theories are irrelevant. biology is science and should be taught in science classes.

Since the laws of the land in a democratic country are what the entire population is under obligation to uphold, just because something is not against the laws, but against our Christian conscience, we will abide by God's rules....for the simple reason that they always work out for the best.

For the best?
Name me one theocracy in the history of the world that "worked out for the best" as compared to any secular democracy of your choosing.

Even considering the sad and sorry state the US is in today, life there is still by leaps and bounds better then any theocracy that exists or ever existd (including christian ones).

Also, just for the record....
When a secular government allows gay couples to get married - nobody forces YOU to enter a same sex marriage.
When a secular government allows abortions - nobody forces YOU to have abortions.
When a secular government allows euthanasia - nobody forces YOU to be euthanised.

So what do you mean, exactly, when you say that you are "forced to act against christian conscience"?

Consider the other side of the table almo...
Consider gay marriage doesn't come through.

Then gay people are actually being forced to NOT act against "christian conscience" - eventhough they themselves might not even be christians. And that, in a secular country.

Sorry, if you believe that, then you have no idea what Christianity is. Its not a numbers game. Its about what you do, not what you say.

Your doubling down on the no-true-scotsman is noted.
Meanwhile, every stat and survey is on my side.
When people are asked if they are religious and if so, which religion and when they then answer "yes and I am a christian" - then I have no reason to doubt them and I just accept it.

Your no true scotsman is of no consequence. For every christian that engages in this fallacy by saying "that person is not a true christian", I can find other christians who say the exact same about that christian.

So whenever a person identifies as a christian, I just accept that. Regardless of no-true-scotsman "arguments" by other christians.

Since none of my brotherhood would be involved in any of that, it really doesn't interest me.
The world can do whatever it likes, we don't have to join in.

Nevertheless, it drives the point home concerning the levels of religiosity active in the US.

And as a sidenote.... when you first questioned my statement that the religious try and stuff their religious rules down society's throat.... were you then only thinking about your own minority denomination? Or were you rather thinking about "the religious" at large?

If the first, do you then acknowledge that plenty of other religious groups DO try to actively get their religious dogma's into legislation and/or the public sphere?

If the latter, then the specifics of your specific minority denomination are irrelevant to this discussion.

Well the "no true Scotsman" argument applies to many things.....I'm sure you would not consent to be operated on by someone who claimed to be a surgeon because he read some of a medical text book once.

That's a false analogy and/or a demonstration that you don't understand the fallacy.

A surgeon is someone who has the necessary credentials and degrees.
A proper analogy would be to say "he's not a real surgeon because he didn't get his degree at Harvard".

Someone who just read a medical text book, is by definition not a surgeon.

All christian denominations are christians. They read and believe the bible and believe in the christian god. That they have differences of opinion in terms of interpretation or whatever, doesn't make them any less christian.

"not a real christian", would be someone like your "surgeon": someone who lies about actually believing the bible. Just like your "surgeon" lies about being a surgeon, since he doesn't have the necessary credentials and degrees.

What governments make legal has nothing to do with our decisions. Just because its "legal" in a country, doesn't make it "legal" to God. We are not in the habit of lobbying governments to change laws to suit us.....we will abide by God's law regardless. We live in the world, but we are really no part of its mechanics.

Ok. So you are saying that your specific minority denomination doesn't object to governments allowing gay marriage and gay people subsequently actually getting married. Cool.

Do you acknowledge that other religious denominations actively DO engage in that?
And do you acknowledge that this indeed means that religious people thus actively try to impose their religious beliefs upon society - as I said and which you questioned?

 

[Deeje]

Ok. So you are saying that your specific minority denomination doesn't object to governments allowing gay marriage and gay people subsequently actually getting married. Cool.

Well, I am saying that what the world legislates, has no impact on our behavior unless it legislates (forces) what we cannot conscientiously obey. If it mandated something we find morally or scripturally objectionable, “we” would obey God first, regardless of the consequences.

If gay people want to do anything at all, it has nothing to do with us. But if they wish to become Jehovah’s Witnesses, then it will require some deep soul searching. I have to stress that this is a moral issue, not discriminating against gay people per se, but identifying the moral issues that apply to all of those who become JW’s and then deciding what to do about them. This would be up to the people individually.

All of what we do is governed by God’s laws which are outlined in the Bible. This is our choice and we do not impose our beliefs or matters of conscience on others. Since we are not part of this world’s governments or in any way interfere with the laws it makes, we will be as law abiding as we scripturally can be. It is not our wish to do harm or to threaten anyone. We are just messengers.

We have our rules, but they apply only to us. We do not find any of them to be unreasonable, and we choose to live our lives by those principles because they are largely protective.

Do you acknowledge that other religious denominations actively DO engage in that?

It’s obvious that they do. (sadly)
Since we are no part of Christendom, (not accepting their doctrines) we see their political meddling as direct disobedience to Christ’s teachings....so I am saying that in order to be a “true Christian” you have to obey the one who supposedly claims your allegiance......otherwise you void your membership. It’s our actions that determine whether we are “Christians” or not. “Fake” Christians do damage IMO....like fraud in science can damage the reputations of those who accepted them.

And do you acknowledge that this indeed means that religious people thus actively try to impose their religious beliefs upon society - as I said and which you questioned?

What does “religious” mean? It’s a very broad term and to tar all “religious” people with the same brush, doesn’t really tell the story. You can have everything from the slack ‘label-wearers’ to the totally fanatical suicide bombers and everything in between.

Either extreme is not representative of those in the middle. It’s not really fair to lump us all together.

Bad religion to us would be like bad science is to you. It’s about obeying the rules...isn’t it?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It’s obvious that they do. (sadly)

Ok, cool. Then I can only wonder why you seemingly questioned my statement when I first said this, that the religions (in general) actively try to stuff their religious doctrines down the throats of society. Since you acknowledge it now....

Shall I just assume I misread you and that you didn't mean it like it came accross?
That you thus in fact agree that the religious do this and that it's not okay for them to do so in a secular democracy?

Since we are no part of Christendom, (not accepting their doctrines) we see their political meddling as direct disobedience to Christ’s teachings....so I am saying that in order to be a “true Christian” you have to obey the one who supposedly claims your allegiance......otherwise you void your membership. It’s our actions that determine whether we are “Christians” or not. “Fake” Christians do damage IMO....like fraud in science can damage the reputations of those who accepted them.

That is your personal opinion and that's fine. But I don't care about your internal christian sectarian tribalism.
To me, people who identify as christians, are christians. It doesn't matter if they are JW witnesses, catholics, protestnats, southern baptists or what-have-you.

They are all christians.
Just like I don't care what denomination of islam one is: shia, shiite, sunni, what-have-you... they are all muslims.


I can't bother myself with the internal sectarianism / tribalism, because for every denomination that says "those other guys aren't real christians", I can find other denominations that would say the same about them.

What does “religious” mean?

It refers to people who hold religious beliefs in context of some religion.
Not really sure how that word can confuse you, it's pretty straight forward.

It’s a very broad term and to tar all “religious” people with the same brush, doesn’t really tell the story. You can have everything from the slack ‘label-wearers’ to the totally fanatical suicide bombers and everything in between.

Either extreme is not representative of those in the middle. It’s not really fair to lump us all together.

That depends on context. And in this context, it's fine to lump them all together.

Bad religion

Great band!

to us would be like bad science is to you. It’s about obeying the rules...isn’t it?

The difference is, off course, that there aren't 100.000+ "tribes" of scientists or versions of "science", each with their own variation of "the rules".

 

[night912]

In discussion we often find people only focusing on what they feel or think is "negative" of any religion or spiritual teaching.
Why is it so? Why do this people see all the good spiritual teaching add to someones life?

Because of awareness. When you only focus on the "good" teachings, you lose sight of the negative and what it is. When that happens, others see the negative effects on those people and the people they interact with. When you make mistakes, being corrected and understanding why, is a way to help avoid making it in the future. It can also help you to see different mistakes on your own.

Mostly all spiritual/religioues people focus on the good of the teaching they follow, and if there is something negative, they try to understand why the teaching say so. Instead of getting mad or angry at a God or Buddha like those who do not understand spiritual teaching can do.

And that's the difference between someone who reads and follows spiritual teachings and someone who understands and use the spiritual teachings. Those who reads the teachings gets mad or angry at others who critique their beliefs because they have no teachings that they can follow in handling those situations. Those who understand the teachings accept critiques because they know how to use it during the situation.

Why the negativity?

Well, because when the spiritual/religious people who don't quite understand those teachings, they see anything that is not what they've read as being negative. So perhaps you need more understanding of those teachings and use them in your life. That way you won't focus too much on what others say and be mad and angry at them, and not have so much negativity in your life.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Because of awareness. When you only focus on the "good" teachings, you lose sight of the negative and what it is. When that happens, others see the negative effects on those people and the people they interact with. When you make mistakes, being corrected and understanding why, is a way to help avoid making it in the future. It can also help you to see different mistakes on your own.


And that's the difference between someone who reads and follows spiritual teachings and someone who understands and use the spiritual teachings. Those who reads the teachings gets mad or angry at others who critique their beliefs because they have no teachings that they can follow in handling those situations. Those who understand the teachings accept critiques because they know how to use it during the situation.


Well, because when the spiritual/religious people who don't quite understand those teachings, they see anything that is not what they've read as being negative. So perhaps you need more understanding of those teachings and use them in your life. That way you won't focus too much on what others say and be mad and angry at them, and not have so much negativity in your life.

Not directed at you by how can a non believer know what is right or wrong understanding of a spiritual teaching without any form of understanding them self of the teaching?

To truly understand the teaching on a deeper lever takes years of daily practice, not something a non practitioner do. Can you answer that?

 

[CG Didymus]

Why the non-spiritual here wish to destroy the beliefs of the spiritually minded escapes me, unless they must destroy all notion of a Creator because it might mean that everything they believe is false. But what if they are wrong and we are right?

And how many Christian groups attack your beliefs and how many support them? Then, do you support the beliefs of those other Christians, and the beliefs of people in other religions? So many religious groups believe their stuff and disagree with the beliefs of the other religions. And many non-religious people complain about all the beliefs of all the religions.

 

[Deeje]

And how many Christian groups attack your beliefs and how many support them? Then, do you support the beliefs of those other Christians, and the beliefs of people in other religions? So many religious groups believe their stuff and disagree with the beliefs of the other religions. And many non-religious people complain about all the beliefs of all the religions.

Yes, that's true...but we have an explanation for that from Jesus himself.....

Remember the parable of the "wheat and the weeds"? If you read it carefully, you will see why we have this situation and who is responsible for all that confusion and disagreement.

Matthew 13:24-30....
"He presented another illustration to them, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”

Then after some more illustrations his disciples asked for an explanation of this one particular parable....

Matthew 13:36-43....
"Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen."

The weeds in the illustration are believed to be a poisonous plant, common in the Middle East, called "Bearded Darnel"....it is often referred to as "wheat's evil twin" because in the growing stages it is almost impossible to tell the difference between the two plants.
If a landowner had enemies, a favorite tactic to destroy or diminish his crop was to throw the seeds of this weed in amongst the wheat crop. This is why the instruction was to allow both to "grow together until the harvest"....only then would a clear difference be observed so that the weeds could be pulled out before harvesting the wheat.

The sower of this fake wheat was the devil and his aim was to ruin the wheat crop that Jesus had sown. Not with another religion, but with a corrupted form of the same one....a counterfeit. He did this "while men were sleeping".....not spiritually awake to what was happening.
(Corruption of God's worship is what led Israel to reject their Messiah. The devil never alters his tactics...because they work for him. He knows how to manipulate humans.)

This means that at the 'harvest time' the "wheat" and the "weeds" would no longer look or act alike.
The similarities between the various sects was to betray the 'weeds', whereas the 'wheat' would look and act in a completely different way. Just as Jesus stood out as different from the Jews of his day, so the genuine wheat would be treated the same way at the "time of the end"....the harvest time. (John 15:18-21)

Unless you understand what the devil did, you will be looking at the 'weeds' and imagining that they are the 'wheat' they claim to be....and being disillusioned at their disunity and hypocrisy....wondering who got it right....if any?

So here we are...left to figure it out....but one thing is clear to me, and that is what Jesus said at John 6:65...
“This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Without an invitation from the Father, no one can come to Jesus.....the Jesus that they imagine is one invented by the devil...a fake, three headed freak that is right out of satan's horror collection. They will feel the sting of his rejection. (Matthew 7:21-23)

That is how I see it....

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, that's true...but we have an explanation for that from Jesus himself.....

Remember the parable of the "wheat and the weeds"? If you read it carefully, you will see why we have this situation and who is responsible for all that confusion and disagreement.

Matthew 13:24-30....
"He presented another illustration to them, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26 When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27 So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’”

Then after some more illustrations his disciples asked for an explanation of this one particular parable....

Matthew 13:36-43....
"Then after dismissing the crowds, he went into the house. His disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen."

The weeds in the illustration are believed to be a poisonous plant, common in the Middle East, called "Bearded Darnel"....it is often referred to as "wheat's evil twin" because in the growing stages it is almost impossible to tell the difference between the two plants.
If a landowner had enemies, a favorite tactic to destroy or diminish his crop was to throw the seeds of this weed in amongst the wheat crop. This is why the instruction was to allow both to "grow together until the harvest"....only then would a clear difference be observed so that the weeds could be pulled out before harvesting the wheat.

The sower of this fake wheat was the devil and his aim was to ruin the wheat crop that Jesus had sown. Not with another religion, but with a corrupted form of the same one....a counterfeit. He did this "while men were sleeping".....not spiritually awake to what was happening.
(Corruption of God's worship is what led Israel to reject their Messiah. The devil never alters his tactics...because they work for him. He knows how to manipulate humans.)

This means that at the 'harvest time' the "wheat" and the "weeds" would no longer look or act alike.
The similarities between the various sects was to betray the 'weeds', whereas the 'wheat' would look and act in a completely different way. Just as Jesus stood out as different from the Jews of his day, so the genuine wheat would be treated the same way at the "time of the end"....the harvest time. (John 15:18-21)

Unless you understand what the devil did, you will be looking at the 'weeds' and imagining that they are the 'wheat' they claim to be....and being disillusioned at their disunity and hypocrisy....wondering who got it right....if any?

So here we are...left to figure it out....but one thing is clear to me, and that is what Jesus said at John 6:65...
“This is why I have said to you, no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Without an invitation from the Father, no one can come to Jesus.....the Jesus that they imagine is one invented by the devil...a fake, three headed freak that is right out of satan's horror collection. They will feel the sting of his rejection. (Matthew 7:21-23)

That is how I see it....

Yes, who has it right? Christians tell they are right. Baha'is tell me they are. And they all hate all the "negativity" when people don't believe what they say.