Are Monotheistic Religions Truely Monotheistic?

[darkstar]

I had an interesting debate with a Christian friend of mine, and I thought I'd bring the fun here.

The concept of Satan. I've been accused of worshiping Satan on a regular basis because I'm pagan. I often answer that Satan is one of their Gods, not mine. This is denied of course.

So my point is this. When something good happens it's God/Allah. When something bad happens it's Satan. Satan tests people, spreads pain and suffering, and is apparently very powerful since he seems to be able to manipulate various forms of creation to tempt us and turn us from God.
Sounds like a Deity to me.

So my question is this, is Satan another Deity, or a convenient scapegoat? It doesn't matter if God lets him do something, or put him in place either. The point is that he exhibits the power and influence that one would attribute to a God.

Also note that one can acknowledge a Deity without worshiping them. I believe the God of Abraham exists as much as my own, but don't worship him.

I'm just curious, discuss?

 

[9Westy9]

I had an interesting debate with a Christian friend of mine, and I thought I'd bring the fun here.

The concept of Satan. I've been accused of worshiping Satan on a regular basis because I'm pagan. I often answer that Satan is one of their Gods, not mine. This is denied of course.

So my point is this. When something good happens it's God/Allah. When something bad happens it's Satan. Satan tests people, spreads pain and suffering, and is apparently very powerful since he seems to be able to manipulate various forms of creation to tempt us and turn us from God.
Sounds like a Deity to me.

So my question is this, is Satan another Deity, or a convenient scapegoat? It doesn't matter if God lets him do something, or put him in place either. The point is that he exhibits the power and influence that one would attribute to a God.

Also note that one can acknowledge a Deity without worshiping them. I believe the God of Abraham exists as much as my own, but don't worship him.

I'm just curious, discuss?

Depends if the monotheist believes his/ her god is only good instead of both good and evil

 

[darkstar]

Depends if the monotheist believes his/ her god is only good instead of both good and evil

Very true, though the MAJORITY of monotheists don't like it when someone says their God isn't Perfect and thus Perfectly Good.

That's just personal experience, and its not an accusation at anyone, but this is something that has greatly interested me. Any monotheistic faith that has an opposing force from their one true, all good and all knowing perfect God... well they attribute way too much power to the opposing force.

It's hard to not wonder why they can't just view their opposite evil force as a God as well, just not one they desire to worship over their own.

 

[A-ManESL]

In my experience, when we study "monotheistic religions" closely we find they are not really monotheistic. Indeed, I believe that this categorization of religions as monotheistic or not is itself flawed and developed out of oversimplified assumptions about the nature of the Everlasting Reality in such religious traditions. For example, take a look at this for a non-monotheistic take on Islam.

 

[elmarna]

:clapwhile Gods world is in the creation of all he made.
Satan is a part of what he created & not what 1 would call in the religion -"1 to worship"
the very aspect that we are with free will is important.
To choose to worship satan just means you are not likely concentrating on the bigger picture.

 

[Quintessence]

From what I have studied of Judaism, it appears to be a true monotheistic faith. I'm not sure if the same can be said of the other two major Abrahamic faiths.

But to me, the divine isn't a numbers game to begin with. A professor I had as an undergrad made a rather compelling argument grounded in comparative religion suggesting that the difference between monotheism and polytheism isn't the numbers game, but what the focus of worship is. In monotheism, you tend to have an assortment of "minor deities" such as prophets, saints, angels and the like, but they are not the focus of worship. In polytheism, you tend to have some overarching concept of unity, like fate, but it is not the focus of worship.

 

[Shermana]

The original Hebrew/Christian faith is HENOtheistic, not "Monotheism".

The evil one is indeed called "The god of this age" in 2 Corinthians 4:4. Jesus is called "a god" in John 1:1 (anarthrous theos).

Angels are called "gods". The definition of the word "god' is rarely understood by so-called "Monotheists".

The idea of the Trinity of "3 persons in one god" is pure Polytheism whether they admit it or not, not too far removed from the idea of the Brahma.

 

[Quintessence]

Ah, Shermana, that is indeed a good point about Abrahamic faiths initially being henotheistic. I do remember that being a point of discussion made to me and I neglected to remember it at this time. Much of the language of the Old Testament suggests that (e.g. saying you shall have no other gods before me implicitly suggests the existence of other gods).

 

[darkstar]

The original Hebrew/Christian faith is HENOtheistic, not "Monotheism".

The evil one is indeed called "The god of this age" in 2 Corinthians 4:4. Jesus is called "a god" in John 1:1 (anarthrous theos).

Angels are called "gods". The definition of the word "god' is rarely understood by so-called "Monotheists".

The idea of the Trinity of "3 persons in one god" is pure Polytheism whether they admit it or not, not too far removed from the idea of the Brahma.

That's why I wonder why these people are so offended by the idea that Satan is a God. Especially since many claim that he is worshiped so frequently in the world.

You make very good points btw

 

[Flankerl]

I had an interesting debate with a Christian friend of mine, and I thought I'd bring the fun here.

The concept of Satan. I've been accused of worshiping Satan on a regular basis because I'm pagan. I often answer that Satan is one of their Gods, not mine. This is denied of course.

So my point is this. When something good happens it's God/Allah. When something bad happens it's Satan. Satan tests people, spreads pain and suffering, and is apparently very powerful since he seems to be able to manipulate various forms of creation to tempt us and turn us from God.
Sounds like a Deity to me.

So my question is this, is Satan another Deity, or a convenient scapegoat? It doesn't matter if God lets him do something, or put him in place either. The point is that he exhibits the power and influence that one would attribute to a God.

Also note that one can acknowledge a Deity without worshiping them. I believe the God of Abraham exists as much as my own, but don't worship him.

I'm just curious, discuss?

You know there is a monotheistic religion out there where god is indeed good and evil. And where HaSatan just works for HaShem. And where there is no place called hell ruled by some evil sub-god who somehow is strong enough not to be destroyed by god.


You have to think out of the box. And when I say out of the box i mean "out of your christian upbringing". Because as it turns out not every religion is like christianity or islam.

 

[Me Myself]

I think the concept of "god" in abrahamic conceptions comes linked to "worthy of worship" and with "powerful"

So being that their god is supposedly the powerfulestest and also the only one that should be worshipped, other gods are seen as "not real" gods or demons (because they ask for worship when the "only" hing that should be worshipped is AG (Abrahmic God) )

So they are supernatural deities that make you sin. This are seen in their perspective as demons. (well, they would be "preternatural" to be more theologically exact)

In any case that would be christian POV, I would see Satan a "god" as conceptualized by pagans.

So to sum it up:

At least christianity is truly monotheistic... acording to THEIR point of view.

It could be seen as polytheistic too though, as long as you see it from the point of view you use (which is incorrect according to christinity´s)

 

[ManTimeForgot]

I had an interesting debate with a Christian friend of mine, and I thought I'd bring the fun here.

The concept of Satan. I've been accused of worshiping Satan on a regular basis because I'm pagan. I often answer that Satan is one of their Gods, not mine. This is denied of course.

So my point is this. When something good happens it's God/Allah. When something bad happens it's Satan. Satan tests people, spreads pain and suffering, and is apparently very powerful since he seems to be able to manipulate various forms of creation to tempt us and turn us from God.
Sounds like a Deity to me.

So my question is this, is Satan another Deity, or a convenient scapegoat? It doesn't matter if God lets him do something, or put him in place either. The point is that he exhibits the power and influence that one would attribute to a God.

Also note that one can acknowledge a Deity without worshiping them. I believe the God of Abraham exists as much as my own, but don't worship him.

I'm just curious, discuss?

I think Christianity would be vastly more internally consistent if they continued with the concept of Elohim "only god that matters" rather than trying to graduate to "God" (unassailable, transcendental, supernatural, absolute, omnimax).

Satan pretty demonstrably meets the criteria for "god" or "deity" by just about every definition I have ever seen. About the only thing I can say in "defense" of the standpoint (to play devil's advocate for a moment) is to suggest that perhaps angels are not sufficiently advanced extra-terrestrials so as to warrant the moniker "god"

This is to say that a "god" pretty clearly is an extra-terrestrial with a penchant for interfering in the lives/societies of "lesser species," but they are extremely developed and are capable of making decisions about things with metaphysical consequences (like does the earth make it; do nano-machines go uncontrolled and wipe out the ecosystem; is our first AI unfriendly and thus usher in Terminatoresque future). This could be thought of as being a "Cosmic Adult." They are responsible enough to deal properly and fully appreciate "cosmic issues." We are no where near this level. We are cosmic infants, perhaps if we are generous cosmic children. That is to say that we might still need the occasional "cosmic babysitter." An angel might be an example of a "cosmic teenager;" something that was developed and advanced enough to better appreciate the scope and danger of large scale issues and could successfully protect "lesser species" from killing their fool selves before they had a chance to get to start looking at the "really interesting stuff."

Now if we continue this analogy one might be tempted to think of Satan as a "babysitter gone rogue." This is the babysitter that eats all the food in your fridge, lets the children do whatever without supervision, and encourages them to watch porn and snuff films with the babysitter. But despite however "destructive" the potential this being has it still might not rise to the level of "deity" in terms of development, insight, and perspective at a cosmic level.

MTF

 

[darkstar]

You know there is a monotheistic religion out there where god is indeed good and evil. And where HaSatan just works for HaShem. And where there is no place called hell ruled by some evil sub-god who somehow is strong enough not to be destroyed by god.


You have to think out of the box. And when I say out of the box i mean "out of your christian upbringing". Because as it turns out not every religion is like christianity or islam.

Which might be why I specified, or highly implied, Christianity and Islam due to the fact I was curious about this within THEIR religious views. And I was not raised a Christian btw.

Also, considering that my mother is Jewish by heritage, though Christian by religion, I have always learned what I could of Judaism. Which might be why I didn't mention it, seeing as it wasn't applicable. Most questions about Judaism, and Jewish mysticism, are answered by my friend and teacher.

Assumptions are dangerous ^_^

 

[darkstar]

I think the concept of "god" in abrahamic conceptions comes linked to "worthy of worship" and with "powerful"

So being that their god is supposedly the powerfulestest and also the only one that should be worshipped, other gods are seen as "not real" gods or demons (because they ask for worship when the "only" hing that should be worshipped is AG (Abrahmic God) )

So they are supernatural deities that make you sin. This are seen in their perspective as demons. (well, they would be "preternatural" to be more theologically exact)

In any case that would be christian POV, I would see Satan a "god" as conceptualized by pagans.

So to sum it up:

At least christianity is truly monotheistic... acording to THEIR point of view.

It could be seen as polytheistic too though, as long as you see it from the point of view you use (which is incorrect according to christinity´s)

I know what you're trying to say, but that seems to boil down to semantics. A creature that by all rights is a God (Or anti-God) is still a Deity. Even if they're not as powerful as the supreme God of that religion. Calling the other Deities "Demons" doesn't change anything. "A rose by any other name" kind of thing.

I'm not trying to convince any Christian to worship demons, or anything. But just using pure logic to define concepts. If the Devil holds that much power, then he is a God. Maybe not one that Christians or Muslims would want to worship, but still he is either powerful or he's a scapegoat that has no real power or dominion over anything. If the latter is the case, then "The Devil made this bad stuff happen" is just an excuse.

 

[Me Myself]

I know what you're trying to say, but that seems to boil down to semantics. A creature that by all rights is a God (Or anti-God) is still a Deity. Even if they're not as powerful as the supreme God of that religion. Calling the other Deities "Demons" doesn't change anything. "A rose by any other name" kind of thing.

I'm not trying to convince any Christian to worship demons, or anything. But just using pure logic to define concepts. If the Devil holds that much power, then he is a God. Maybe not one that Christians or Muslims would want to worship, but still he is either powerful or he's a scapegoat that has no real power or dominion over anything. If the latter is the case, then "The Devil made this bad stuff happen" is just an excuse.

the problem is that a rose is called rosa where I live and it´s called otherwise in chinese, latin, korean, french, etc.

We are using words and are discussing a word, so we are talking about semantics.

Legal terms also tend to differ non-legal uses of the same word sometimes, this happens not only in law but in a lot of areas in human knowledge, so I don´t see why christians can´t use their own language in this and say that it is not a god.

Power not equals god in their vocabulary the same way rosa not equals rose in english.

 

[ChristineES]

I had an interesting debate with a Christian friend of mine, and I thought I'd bring the fun here.

The concept of Satan. I've been accused of worshiping Satan on a regular basis because I'm pagan. I often answer that Satan is one of their Gods, not mine. This is denied of course.

So my point is this. When something good happens it's God/Allah. When something bad happens it's Satan. Satan tests people, spreads pain and suffering, and is apparently very powerful since he seems to be able to manipulate various forms of creation to tempt us and turn us from God.
Sounds like a Deity to me.

So my question is this, is Satan another Deity, or a convenient scapegoat? It doesn't matter if God lets him do something, or put him in place either. The point is that he exhibits the power and influence that one would attribute to a God.

Also note that one can acknowledge a Deity without worshiping them. I believe the God of Abraham exists as much as my own, but don't worship him.

I'm just curious, discuss?

The way I see it is this: 1. I don't believe that Satan is a being- but more of a manifestation of our own thirsts, hungers, temptations, etc. 2. Even if he was a literal being, he wouldn't be a god- some say he was/is an angel who had fallen. 3. There are some people of faith who believe that people worshiping in any other religion but their own are worshiping a false god, which to them, would be Satan (at least I think it is).

Your Christian friend should not be telling you that you worship Satan. Christians sometimes forget Jesus' commands and they need to be reminded of them- one of them is to worry about what you are doing and not worry about what others are doing (it isn't worded that way, if you want the verse, I will post it if you ask me to).

 

[darkstar]

The way I see it is this: 1. I don't believe that Satan is a being- but more of a manifestation of our own thirsts, hungers, temptations, etc. 2. Even if he was a literal being, he wouldn't be a god- some say he was/is an angel who had fallen. 3. There are some people of faith who believe that people worshiping in any other religion but their own are worshiping a false god, which to them, would be Satan (at least I think it is).

Your Christian friend should not be telling you that you worship Satan. Christians sometimes forget Jesus' commands and they need to be reminded of them- one of them is to worry about what you are doing and not worry about what others are doing (it isn't worded that way, if you want the verse, I will post it if you ask me to).

Well then.
I can see the merit in point 1.
Point 2, eh I think trays arguing over a concept of God which basically means that only one God can be a God. That to me seems like a denial to keep the "There is only one God" thing from the bible. But its not my beliefs so I'm not going to bash it. Still just curious to see other responses.
Point 3 is very common unfortunately. I run into it often.

Also as a note, my Christian friend has never accused me of devil worship. I live in the bible belt, so there's no shortage of those that do, but my friend has actually attended a Pagan circle, and actually observed me during ritual and trance. He actually was my assistant and drummed for me. And I have attended church of various denominations.
So there is a level of understanding and respect that most don't seem to extend to others as they should.

 

[darkstar]

the problem is that a rose is called rosa where I live and it´s called otherwise in chinese, latin, korean, french, etc.

We are using words and are discussing a word, so we are talking about semantics.

Legal terms also tend to differ non-legal uses of the same word sometimes, this happens not only in law but in a lot of areas in human knowledge, so I don´t see why christians can´t use their own language in this and say that it is not a god.

Power not equals god in their vocabulary the same way rosa not equals rose in english.

I still think this is rather convenient. And a way for people to change concepts to suit their own agenda. But since this isn't about changing minds, just mostly a curiosity, I'll leave it at that.

 

[ChristineES]

Well then.
I can see the merit in point 1.
Point 2, eh I think trays arguing over a concept of God which basically means that only one God can be a God. That to me seems like a denial to keep the "There is only one God" thing from the bible. But its not my beliefs so I'm not going to bash it. Still just curious to see other responses.
Point 3 is very common unfortunately. I run into it often.

I don't see it as denial. Satan has never been considered a God by the Christians I studied with, but as an angel- some say Lucifer or Morning Star. I don't see devil and Satan as the same thing, either. A demon may described as an "unclean spirit" in certain translations of the gospels and not necessarily an angel. What an unclean spirit is, I really don't know.

 

[Me Myself]

I still think this is rather convenient. And a way for people to change concepts to suit their own agenda. But since this isn't about changing minds, just mostly a curiosity, I'll leave it at that.

I think it is an efficient communication tool so to spread the kind of thiking they think is moral.

concepts are SUPPOSED to change in order to fit agendas, and religions in general do that all the time

I do agree with you that you can call Satan a god (and that that needs not be linked to worshiping him) and for what it´s worth, I do believe it is highly healthy for most christians spritual progressions to have their legs being pulled by people like you with this kinda concepts

When I wan´t to *** with their minds I like to say "God got his mother pregnant" or for catholics (common in my country) "You do know you support canibalism, right?" (the catholic sacrament of the eucharisty says that when one eats the bread the bread is literally (somehow) jesus´s body and the wine drank is literally Jesus´s blood)

I just felt it was important to state as a fact that here where we are already mostly among people who do think about stuff and about what we believe in that it is normal and even very proper and efficient for christians and catholics to use concepts the way they see fit.

As long as they don´t make other people´s lifes hell because of it.