Are muslims authoritorian followers ?

[Cordoba]

Kai

There is a pan-Islamic organization called OIC (Organization of the Islamic Conference) established since 1969

They can simply elect a candidate, like for example:

 

[kai]

Thank you Cordoba

Is it possible to do that now?

 

[Cordoba]

Yes, why not

This is the OIC web site

http://www.oic-oci.org/home.asp

They meet on a regular basis, and if the political will is there they can elect a candidate by simple majority

 

[Peace]

I'd like to add that instead of being a fortified and unified front we are scattered about aimlessly without direction. The basic root cause for all these problems is the weakness of our individual iman and a general unwillingness to practice Islam as it is.

We are constantly trying to mold and shape Islam into what fits us as opposed to hear and obey, or even mental submission to Allah and His rasul. A Muslim is one who submits his/her own will to the will of Allah. Not the other way around. We will continue to suffer spiritually and in all worldy matters until we figure out what a Muslim is. Until we stop accepting one part of Islam and reject the other, until we engage in amr bil ma'ruf wa nahiy anil munkar even just among ourselves and our families, it will never end.

We like to look back at the "glory days" of Islam but we don't care to know how those days came to be. We (as a whole) don't even want to make salaat on a regular basis. In short our main and really only problem is weakness of Iman. That covers a whole lot of ground when you think about it.

Individually we break all of Allah's commandments. Fornication, no salaat, no dhikr, no zakat, no sadaqah, engaging in interest, no fikr for the welfare of others particularly Muslims, and making the halal to be haram and the haram to be halal we involve ourselves in these crimes daily. We can know that a certain person commits adultery but won't move a muscle to stop it or at least remind one another the orders of Allah. We don't check ourselves from wrongdoing and neither do we check one another, and it has led to nothing but ruin to us as a whole. We find excuses as to why we don't have to obey this, or we don't have to do that and no one can tell me that it has done us any good. What have we accomplished as an ummah? What can we be proud of today?

Unfortunately, that's the reality of the state of our ummah . Allah will never unified us as one Ummah and grant us victory and success until we change ourselves.

 

[AbuKhalid]

Hi

I just wondered what or who would be the ideal ruler for the Ummah, is there a candidate for Caliph in the world today? or do you choose one?

In an ideal world where all muslims are under true Islamic rule and true Sharia ,who would be in Charge?

and does anyone think this ideal world is unatainable? or on the other hand attainable?

I think the right person to be the Caliph will come to light in the struggle for the Caliphate. None of the current leaders would fit this bill.

The following is taken from the book, In Pursuit of Allahs Pleasure by Dr. Naajeh Ibrahim, Sheikh ‘Aasim ‘Abdul Maajid and Sheikh ‘Esaam-ud-Deen Darbaalah.

The appointment of the Caliph can be reached through the following methods:
1. Al-Istikhlaaf, in which case the existing Caliph appoints as his successor either a man or a group of men who will then appoint the new Caliph from their midst.
2. Bai’ah (or Pledge of allegiance) given by the influential people who are in power (Ahlul- Halli wal-`Aqd) to a man who meets the conditions required of a Caliph.
3. Al-Isteelaa’, or what is known as Imaaratul-Mutaghallib, in which case the position of the Caliph passes on to a new man by force.
Details of these issues are to be found in books of jurisprudence and legal politics. As for the conditions which the Caliph has to meet, then Al-Mawardi has mentioned seven:
1. Justice with all its comprehensive conditions.
2. Knowledge that enables him to practise Ijtihad when new circumstances and
cases arise.
3. Sound hearing, seeing, and speaking.
4. Freedom from physical disabilities.
5. Sound opinion and judgement to manage the subjects’ matters and conduct other services.
6. Courage and readiness to protect the land of Islam and its people and to fight the enemy.
7. Descent from the Qur’aish tribe, due to the Hadeeth evidence and the consensus of Muslim scholars.

The following site is an excellent source on issues related to the Caliphate. It is run by Hizb Ut Tahrir who I disagree with on many issues, however they have done some great research on these issues:

Khilafah.com - Building a global movement for Khilafah

 

[kai]

Thanks AbuKhalid i think this was the wrong place to ask so i opened a new thread

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/international-politics/80535-why-there-no-caliphate.html

 

[Mr Spinkles]

This is the same America whose military and foreign policy are directly responsible for the atrocities and murders happening all across the Muslim lands where they are present. Let's look at Pakistan for a moment. It was Pakistan who allowed the US military among others to use the airspace necessary to launch the attack against Afghanistan. Had the leader of the country refused to allow that, it would have been much more difficult strategically to attack any of the Muslim lands.

May I ask a question or two?

Do you think the US invaded Afghanistan because Americans were really interested in attacking Muslim lands?

What is your opinion of the Taliban?

 

[fullyveiled muslimah]

This may be a topic for another forum if we spin off but I will oblige. I have reserved my judgement on the taliban simply because my sources on them are unreliable in my book. My only consistent source about the taliban and their behaviour is the main stream media which I trust about as far as I can throw the Empire State building. I can't say with any real conviction that I think they are good or fair group of people. What I do know is that it is surely not beyond our American media to mischaracterize a certain group of people in order to appeal to the masses or sway public opinion.

What I do recall happening in the media was when this all began after 9/11 when Bush asked the taliban to turn Bin Laden over to American authorities, the taliban asked for proof or evidence that America had for believing that Bin Laden was responsible for the attacks. I remember the president saying that it was ridiculous for them to ask such a thing, but I thought it was fair. Based on that, I can't really draw and accurate conclusion as to what I think of them. So far everything I've heard I haven't liked one bit.

I can tell you what I believe the goal of the invasion of Afghanistan was not about. It wasn't about freedom and peace and justice being served. That war is still going on and no one has won but many have suffered during it. What good has it done? America has not even gotten proper revenge so-to-speak.

My point of what you quoted was to note that it was because Muslim countries allowed their land and air space to be used to attack other Muslims. That's a problem to us. If I were convinced that things were as America portrayed them to be and their were really some dangerous terrorists to be brought to justice I would be all for helping that along. I just don't see it that way at all, and this is not the place or time for me to go into it.

 

[TashaN]

I agree with you brother that change and reform should start by individuals and by the parents at home and the teachers at schools. If every parents give the right Islamic education to their children, the situation of our Ummah will never be like the one we are living now.
We all have this burden on our shoulders to carry this mission and to teach our future children the right education. If we fulfill this mission our Ummah will revive and awake and we will have great people who we will be proud of.
We all know that that there will come a time when the state of the Ummah will change for the better and we hope that that time will come soon

Indeed sister.

 

[TashaN]

And what do you personally think about that law ? is it ok ?

So ,you don't agree with me that the arab rulers are either weak or disloyal to the ummah and sometimes to their own countries ?

and what about the saudi regime in particular ? how do you evalute it ? its stance from the palestininan case and all the islamic troubles in general ? how do you evalute the shura in your country ? and what about the shcolars in the prisons whom abu khaled taked about ? is this true ?
and don't you agree with me that some of the saudi sholars' fatwas have been shocking lately..not the one i critisized in particular...but in general ? !

These are all political debates sister and i won't go for it here. Don't forget that i'm not a Saudi. I just live there so don't think that i'm defending them blindly or something. I hope you will understand that. When we talk in general, we can judge the situation clearly, but if you went to judge people or certain countries just because of what you hear here and there then we will fall into unnecessary political debates.

I agree..we have to fix ourselves...and meanwhile we have to speak up and criticize what needs to be criticized...is there a contradiction ?

I totally agree with you, but the problem is, we don't have Omar to criticize him and feel safe, and we don't have Abdul Rahman's wisdom and Iman. We have tyrant rulers who don't fear Allah all over the Muslim world. Should an ordinary man speak up, he would end up either killed or in prison for no reason. But when we have a solid comperehsnive education which doesn't only involve earthly ones, and have wise scholars to guide us, we will not fail to find out solutions for our problems.

Anger in these situations isn't helpful at all, because it can cloud your judgment. Muslims were fighting for Allah, niether angry for feeling misrable and hopeless nor they went seeking revenge.

If they ever got angry, then it was for Allah, not for themselves. Many Muslims are pathetic. They feel angry, not for Allah, but because they feel misrable, and feel opressed. This is definitely not the way to deal with this issue.

btw , i never said that the rulers don't do good at all...but when someone is 20% up to the responsibility ,for example...should we praise and applaud the 20% ?

considering that the ummah is not bleeding ,it's hemorraging like yvone ridley said . what 's wrong with the scream for gihad ? should we wait for Hamas to fall down and for the gazans to be eradictaed ?
We are not that weak...and they are not that scary....what else should we wait for to scream for gihad ? more blood shed ? more humiliation ? more countries to be invaded ? more riches to be stolen ?

Is the call for gihad too idelaistic and not realistic ? ..but this is not what history says...we have never ever been more powerful and equipped than our defeated enemies..

The only reason why the gihad is not in action is the rulers..they suppress it ...and are not even neutral.

This is a very complex issue as you know dear maro. The jihad should be done based on the order of the ruler, not the individuals, or it gonna be a mess. That's why, the only choice some extreme groups have was to declear many Muslim rulers to be Kuffar in order to bombard them along with their soldiers, police, etc. They want to take over to do jihad outside the country, and the way to go is to destroy the current regime and declear them as Kuffar, and spread fitnah on earth.

I don't say i know all the answers nor can i claim to be certain in these issues when it comes to other countries, but from what i saw in Saudi Arabia, i can say for certain that all what those extereme people do is an act of the new Khawarij, or they share with them their core beliefs at least.

Saudi Arabia's law is based on plain Shariah law, and the entire country is govern by it. Now, some people might say how about their cooperation with the US, bla bla. Here my question comes, can you declear them to be Kuffar for doing so, and thus, should be removed from power?

If your answer is no, and i guess it's, then you should look at this issue from a different angle. There are many things that needs to be corrected, but declearing jihad on ourselves, and destroying each other from within is definitely, not the answer.

 

[TashaN]

Asslamu Alaikum,

When our scholars stop blaming peoples only and fight oppressors with saying the truth.
Allah SWT says:
[3:110] You (true believers in Islâmic Monotheism, and real followers of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his Sunnah) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind; you enjoin Al-Ma'rûf (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism and all that Islâm has ordained) and forbid Al-Munkar (polytheism, disbelief and all that Islâm has forbidden), and you believe in Allâh.


Not all of them are evil 100%, there are some who are less evil. But it doesn't mean that they are good, because their evil deeds always win.


This is a weak Hadith brother, that's what those scholars who don't fear Allah are doing, they are deceiving us with saying that we are responsible for everything. Of course we have to change what is in ourselves, our families, and our neighbors. But it will take many decades, and our enemies won't wait for us. Al-Aqsa is on the verge of collapse, so we cannot wait for so long.
What I want to say is that the change from the peoples only is wrong, and from regimes only is wrong too. So the change will be noticeable when it comes from both peoples and regimes.

Ok, if the hadith was weak then how about the verse? Have you forgot that one which mention the same thing?

Allah can change our situation within one day if we were sincere enough sis. It's wrong to say that we can't change ourselves quickly, so let us change the rulers first!!!

 

[TashaN]

Think about it, if every Muslim country denies access to the US military how near to impossible would it be to just go in and kill our brothers and sisters? The US could not have waged war on one without waging war on them all simultaneously.

The fact of the matter is the majority of the so called Muslim leaders are munafiqeen who are in the pockets of the global elite. This includes being in the pocket of the American government. Those who aren't willing to be the pawns in this game played against the ummah are invaded or will soon be, and the propaganda against them is astounding.

I totally agree with you, but they already gave up for the US long time a go and they can't dare to say NO.

BTW, as for the law against rallying peacefully or not in Saudi, that's complete garbage. I bet you anything it was design to keep the common people from taking to the streets in protest against their government.

Whether it was for that matter or not, it's completely irrelevant when it comes to the point which maro was trying to prove.

I'd like to add that instead of being a fortified and unified front we are scattered about aimlessly without direction. The basic root cause for all these problems is the weakness of our individual iman and a general unwillingness to practice Islam as it is.

We are constantly trying to mold and shape Islam into what fits us as opposed to hear and obey, or even mental submission to Allah and His rasul. A Muslim is one who submits his/her own will to the will of Allah. Not the other way around. We will continue to suffer spiritually and in all worldy matters until we figure out what a Muslim is. Until we stop accepting one part of Islam and reject the other, until we engage in amr bil ma'ruf wa nahiy anil munkar even just among ourselves and our families, it will never end.

We like to look back at the "glory days" of Islam but we don't care to know how those days came to be. We (as a whole) don't even want to make salaat on a regular basis. In short our main and really only problem is weakness of Iman. That covers a whole lot of ground when you think about it.

Individually we break all of Allah's commandments. Fornication, no salaat, no dhikr, no zakat, no sadaqah, engaging in interest, no fikr for the welfare of others particularly Muslims, and making the halal to be haram and the haram to be halal we involve ourselves in these crimes daily. We can know that a certain person commits adultery but won't move a muscle to stop it or at least remind one another the orders of Allah. We don't check ourselves from wrongdoing and neither do we check one another, and it has led to nothing but ruin to us as a whole. We find excuses as to why we don't have to obey this, or we don't have to do that and no one can tell me that it has done us any good. What have we accomplished as an ummah? What can we be proud of today?

We have alot to be proud of. While it's true that in term of governments we are behind, but alhamdulilah, the ummah has started to wake up, to unite, and start thinking. As you said, we should look at what those men did in the "glory days" in order to reach to their goals. We should find our own ways today to deal with our problems, but we should try to achieve a higher level of iman and motivation which can be compared with those in the past whom you have mentioned.

 

[Sajdah]

Ok, if the hadith was weak then how about the verse?

Which verse?!

Have you forgot that one which mention the same thing?

Is there any verse in the Qur'an which gives the same meaning of that fake Hadith?!

Allah can change our situation within one day if we were sincere enough sis.

Of course brother, Allah is Al Qadir, the All powerful. But does it mean that we have to wait for a miracle to solve our problems?!

It's wrong to say that we can't change ourselves quickly, so let us change the rulers first!!!

I didn't say that. I really intended to say, it is wrong to blame people only on our current situation. People follow the ways of their kings, and our history proves that the saying كما تكونوا يولى عليكم is so wrong.

Actually I don't understand why some Scholars are supporting that saying?! Is it to justify their silence toward our kings and presidents?!

 

[Sahar]

our history proves that the saying كما تكونوا يولى عليكم is so wrong.

I see the opposite, this saying is very evident in the history and in the present time.

 

[Sahar]

We have tyrant rulers who don't fear Allah all over the Muslim world. Should an ordinary man speak up, he would end up either killed or in prison for no reason.

Speaking out against the ruler was made for the tyrant ruler not for Umar.
TashaN, I don't understand what you're trying to say. Do you say that we should be negative and we shouldn't oppose the corrupted governments?

They feel angry, not for Allah, but because they feel misrable, and feel opressed. This is definitely not the way to deal with this issue.

And what's wrong with that? I have every right to get angry if I don't get my human rights or when I am oppressed and which can be my basis for opposing the government.

 

[maro]

Should an ordinary man speak up, he would end up either killed or in prison for no reason.

yes..that's a price that has to be paid sometimes..not for no reason....but for a very good reason ,indeed

The jihad should be done based on the order of the ruler, not the individuals, or it gonna be a mess.

but what if the ruler is hindering jihad ? what if our blood is being shed on daily basis ? what if al masjid al aqsa is being messed with ? what if one country falls after another ?

You say ,eradicating those regimes violently is not the answer...And wallahy al azeem I agree ( so ,hopefully we will drop this point ).....but how come speaking up is not the answer either ?!!!!

The ' educating our sons ' argument is no more than analgesic....A miracle is not going to happen after we educate our sons....An angel will not fall from the sky to rule our ' well educated' sons untill we exert real effort to change those regimes..and the whole political system

Saudi Arabia's law is based on plain Shariah law, and the entire country is govern by it.

I disagree...the shariah we are hoping for is not ' al hudud'...and saudi arabia is certainly not representaive of the islamic shariah

Now, some people might say how about their cooperation with the US, bla bla. Here my question comes, can you declear them to be Kuffar for doing so, and thus, should be removed from power?
If your answer is no, and i guess it's, then you should look at this issue from a different angle. There are many things that needs to be corrected, but declearing jihad on ourselves, and destroying each other from within is definitely, not the answer.

Tashan , i am going clarify this one more time...we are here not talking about destroying the regimes violently...nor did i suggest that....so really ,i don't know why you keep bringing this up ?!!

Isn't there something 'moderate' between a violent revolution and completely shutting up ?

Whether it was for that matter or not, it's completely irrelevant when it comes to the point which maro was trying to prove.

actually ,it's very relevant..

The law is garbage ,repressive and unislamic...and is meant to maintain the saudi dictatorship...and instead of critisizing it , one of the honourable scholars volunteered to make a funky fatwa so that the people shut up and submitt !...That type of scholars has to be comapred to abdul Rahman ibn awf...That was my point

 

[maro]

I see the opposite, this saying is very evident in the history and in the present time.

I say it goes both ways ,not4me...I remeber a man who told omar ibn abd el aziz " you are just ,that's why they " the people " are just...and if you were corrupt ,they would have been corrupt " عدلت فعدلوا , ولو رتعت لرتعوا

Also ,the famous saying : the people follow their kings' religions الناس على دين ملوكهم

I think that the ( what caused what ?) argument is a waste of time...both need to be changed ,simultaneously

 

[AbuKhalid]

I think that the ( what caused what ?) argument is a waste of time...both need to be changed ,simultaneously

This is clearly the middle path and does not go to one extreme and it is certainly the truth.

 

[Sahar]

I say it goes both ways ,not4me...I remeber a man who told omar ibn abd el aziz " you are just ,that's why they " the people " are just...and if you were corrupt ,they would have been corrupt " عدلت فعدلوا , ولو رتعت لرتعوا

Agreed.

Also ,the famous saying : the people follow their kings' religions الناس على دين ملوكهم

I think that the ( what caused what ?) argument is a waste of time...both need to be changed ,simultaneously[

Yes, true.

 

[TashaN]

Which verse?!

Is there any verse in the Qur'an which gives the same meaning of that fake Hadith?!

You are right. I checked in many sources, and i found out that many scholars said it was weak hadith.

Anyhow, i meant this verse.

"... Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change it themselves". Quran (13:11)

Of course brother, Allah is Al Qadir, the All powerful. But does it mean that we have to wait for a miracle to solve our problems?!

Of course not.

I didn't say that. I really intended to say, it is wrong to blame people only on our current situation. People follow the ways of their kings, and our history proves that the saying كما تكونوا يولى عليكم is so wrong.

Actually I don't understand why some Scholars are supporting that saying?! Is it to justify their silence toward our kings and presidents?!

I got what you mean now, but still, please don't tell me that all what happen to us is because of our rulers! Don't forget that those rulers, or let's most of them, have emerged from within the society they live in. There was a time when people fell for communist or secular way of living and the ruler came from within this society.