Are Muslims right about Paul?

[Pegg]

The second (greatest) commandment does not take precedence over the first. Paul does not even mention the first commandment.

maybe because it wasnt the context of his discussion. He isnt talking about the two greatest commandments... he's only talking about the command to love your fellow man.

Pauls talking about subjecting oneself to the rule of law. He's saying to be in subjection to the superior authorities and do the right thing and not be owing anyone anything except to love them. If you fulfill the requirement to love your fellow man, you are fulfilling the law.

He didnt need to remind those fellow Christians to love God because they already loved God... he was reminding them to love their fellow man as Jesus also instructed.

 

[Desert Snake]

Here is a small list of the differences:

Paul said all the Law was fulfilled in one word (a Pharisaic teaching). Romans 13:8-9, Galatians 5:14. Yeshua said otherwise, Matthew 22:27-40, Mark 29-31.

Paul declared ALL things lawful, I Corinthians 6:12-14, Colossians 2:16. Yeshua said otherwise, Matthew 5:18, Luke 16:17, John 14:15.

Paul declared nothing unclean, Romans 14:14, I Timothy 4:1-5. Yeshua and James said otherwise, Acts 15:28-29, Revelation 2:14.

Paul claimed Christ abolished the Law, Romans 6:14, 7:4, Ephesians 2:15-16. Yeshua said otherwise, Matthew 5:17-20, 19:17, 28:20, Luke 16:17.

Paul claimed no one was justified by the Law, Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:11-12, 21. The scriptures say otherwise, II Samuel 22:21, Ezekiel 14:14, 20, Job 27: 29:14, Luke 1:5-6, James 2:20-22.

Paul claimed no man was justified by works of the Law, Galatians 2:16, 21. Yeshua and James said otherwise, Matthew 16:27, James 2:20-22.

Paul claimed the Law was ‘veiled’ (too hard to understand), II Corinthians 3:12-16. Moses said otherwise, Deuteronomy 30: 10-14. John tells us the law is not burdensome, I John 1:53.

Paul called Yahweh’s Law a ‘curse’, Galatians 3:13. (Galatians Chapter 3 and Romans Chapter 3 detail Paul’s attack on the Law). Yeshua instructed us to keep the Law,Matthew 19:17. He came to fulfill the Law, not destroy it, Matthew 5:17-18. The Law was a blessing, Deuteronomy 7:11-13, 11:26-27, 30:19-20.

Paul referred to the Law as ‘the ministry of death’, II Corinthians 3:7. Moses said otherwise, Deuteronomy 4:40, 5:29, 6:24-25, 30:15-20.

Paul declared he sinned because of the Law (this passage is really a piece of work), Romans 7:7-13. James told us that’s not so, James 1:13-14.

Paul speaks against questions he considers foolish, and genealogies, Titus 3:9. Since genealogies are immensely important to Adam’s seed and Satan’s seed in the old and renewed covenants, one must wonder why Paul tells Titus to avoid them.

*****

Paul claimed to be blameless (sinless) in the Law, Philippians 3:4-6.

Paul devalued the Sabbath, Romans 14:5-6.

What does this have to do with the premise of the thread?

 

[Bunyip]

Paul didn't corrupt the message of Jesus, he authored it.

 

[Desert Snake]

What Jesus taught and what Paul wrote is not the issue, the issue is that Islam is a different religion, so of course it can't 'authorize' writings that promote Jesus to Deity or the authority on things.

The premise of the OP is silly.

 

[Simplelogic]

What does this have to do with the premise of the thread?

Because there is clearly a difference between Yeshua's doctrines and Pauls. The fact that Muslims agree with Yeshua on the continued observance of the Law of Moses puts them far above Pauline Christians who reject it. And in turn, reject the very heart of Yeshua's message to humanity.

 

[Simplelogic]

Can anyone answer as to why 80% of Christianity is based off of the letters written by a man who was NOT one of the apostles of Yeshua?? I am grateful to the Muslim world for countering Paul's doctrines which were the heart and soul of Marcion's movement.

 

[Simplelogic]

Paul didn't corrupt the message of Jesus, he authored it.

Tell me. How did Paul author the message of Jesus? Jesus hand selected 12 apostles whom he specifically appointed to take his message to the nations. And Paul was not one of them.

 

[Simplelogic]

maybe because it wasnt the context of his discussion. He isnt talking about the two greatest commandments... he's only talking about the command to love your fellow man.

Pauls talking about subjecting oneself to the rule of law. He's saying to be in subjection to the superior authorities and do the right thing and not be owing anyone anything except to love them. If you fulfill the requirement to love your fellow man, you are fulfilling the law.

He didnt need to remind those fellow Christians to love God because they already loved God... he was reminding them to love their fellow man as Jesus also instructed.

No. He was paraphrasing a common pharisaic teaching.

 

[outhouse]

Because there is clearly a difference between Yeshua's doctrines and Pauls.

You don't have a clue what Jesus taught.

And that has been told to you already by others

 

[Bunyip]

Can anyone answer as to why 80% of Christianity is based off of the letters written by a man who was NOT one of the apostles of Yeshua?? I am grateful to the Muslim world for countering Paul's doctrines which were the heart and soul of Marcion's movement.

I think that Paul plays a similar role in Christianity that the Prophet does in Islam. He is the catalyst, the embarkation point where the new branch of the Abrahamic tradition begins.

I don't mean to compare the Prophet to Paul in any other sense, only in that he marks the point of seperation from the older traditions. His testimony is the link to divinity, as was the Prophets for Moslems.

 

[outhouse]

Can anyone answer as to why 80% of Christianity is based off of the letters written by a man who was NOT one of the apostles of Yeshua??

Can you answer why not one of the real disciples wrote a word on jesus?


By the way 12 is seen as purely mythical.


None of the gospels were based on any eyewitness account either.

 

[outhouse]

I am grateful to the Muslim
.

Because they perverted everything in the NT?

 

[Simplelogic]

What law did those prior to the mosaic law follow? Think about it, the mosaic law was given by moses in the 15th century bce... but mankind has been around longer then that. What law did Abraham or Noah follow? It certainly wasn't the mosaic law and yet they were considered servants of God.

Do you have any idea of why they could be declared righteous without any knowledge of the mosaic law?

Well you have misunderstood a number of things concerning God's law. The majority of the Torah was around since the beginning of creation.

-Sabbath
-Animal Sacrifice
-Marriage laws
-Clean and unclean
-Adultery
-Murder

So how was Abraham considered justified???

4And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Gen 26:4-5

Man were always considered righteous because of their willingness to obey God's commandments.

 

[Simplelogic]

Because they perverted everything in the NT?

No. There are things I disagree with Muslims on concerning the NT. However I believe they were right on when it comes to Paul's anti Torah campaign.

 

[Bunyip]

Tell me. How did Paul author the message of Jesus? Jesus hand selected 12 apostles whom he specifically appointed to take his message to the nations. And Paul was not one of them.

I'm hardly going to challenge you on that, I'm an atheist.

How indeed?

I see accepting the testimony of Paul to be an essential article of Christian faith, and to do so one must accept that Paul really did communicate with the risen Jesus - which is of course a difficult leap for atheists. But not necessarily for Christians.

As to the 12 apostles, well it seems that we have none of their testimony. As I understand it none of the gospels are known to be written by any of the apostles. Which in part is why Paul carries such weight within Christian theology.

 

[Simplelogic]

Now lets see how Noah was considered righteous:

So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I regret that I have made them." But Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the Lord. This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. Genesis 6:7-9

Then the Lord said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, BECAUSE I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation. Genesis 7:1

 

[Simplelogic]

Yes. Mans works are what merits favor from YHVH. Contrary to Paul's letters.

 

[Simplelogic]

I'm hardly going to challenge you on that, I'm an atheist.

How indeed?

I see accepting the testimony of Paul to be an essential article of Christian faith, and to do so one must accept that Paul really did communicate with the risen Jesus - which is of course a difficult leap for atheists. But not necessarily for Christians.

As to the 12 apostles, well it seems that we have none of their testimony. As I understand it none of the gospels are known to be written by any of the apostles. Which in part is why Paul carries such weight within Christian theology.

The point I am making is that Yeshua and the 12 all believed in the continued practice of the Law of Moses. All of them! They even continued to offer animal sacrifices many years after Yeshua's resurrection!

 

[Simplelogic]

What Jesus taught and what Paul wrote is not the issue, the issue is that Islam is a different religion, so of course it can't 'authorize' writings that promote Jesus to Deity or the authority on things.

The premise of the OP is silly.

Jesus never claims to be God so….

 

[Bunyip]

The point I am making is that Yeshua and the 12 all believed in the continued practice of the Law of Moses. All of them! They even continued to offer animal sacrifices many years after Yeshua's resurrection!

Sure, I get your point. It is an interesting question, and like all of the major schisms will have no simple answer.