Are Muslims right about Paul?

[Harikrish]

Yes. The author isn't writing about Jesus. Much later Christians read "Jesus" into the prophecy.

...has nothing to do with Isaiah.

Cite text, please.
Don't you think the gospel writers intentionally wrote Jesus to fulfill prophecy? Of course they did! They weren't writing factual history, after all -- the gospels are highly mythic.

The Messiah will be the offspring of David, and King of the whole world.

Psalm 132:11 The LORD has sworn in truth to David; he will not turn from it: "I will set upon your throne the fruit of your body.
Jeremiah 23:5-6 "Behold, the days are coming," says the LORD, "That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Rom 1:3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
Key Points:

- The Lord "swore" this promise to David that his seed would rule the earth.
- The fruit of David’s body was referring to his seed, which was Jesus Christ.

- David’s "branch" refers to his offspring and is the Hebrew word "tsamech".
- God’s promise in the Old Testament was always that He would one day bless all nations through one man who would be of the family of king David.

- The Bible reveals that this offspring of David would be a "great King", he would "live forever", and establish a kingdom "that would never end."
- 2 Sam 7 reveals that through David's family would come a line of kings, culminating in One "Eternal King" whose kingdom would never pass away.

-Matthew’s genealogy traces the lineage of Christ back to King David.
- The King referred to in Jer 23 is Jesus, He is to reign, and prosper, execute judgment and righteousness. Judah (the Jews) will be saved and Israel will have peace.

- "The LORD our Righteousness" in Hebrew is Yahweh (Jehovah) Tsidkenu.

The Seed of David - Messianic Prophecy (Bible History Online)

 

[sojourner]

The Messiah will be the offspring of David, and King of the whole world.

​

Psalm 132:11 The LORD has sworn in truth to David; he will not turn from it: "I will set upon your throne the fruit of your body.
Jeremiah 23:5-6 "Behold, the days are coming," says the LORD, "That I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Rom 1:3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
Key Points:

- The Lord "swore" this promise to David that his seed would rule the earth.
- The fruit of David’s body was referring to his seed, which was Jesus Christ.

- David’s "branch" refers to his offspring and is the Hebrew word "tsamech".
- God’s promise in the Old Testament was always that He would one day bless all nations through one man who would be of the family of king David.

- The Bible reveals that this offspring of David would be a "great King", he would "live forever", and establish a kingdom "that would never end."
- 2 Sam 7 reveals that through David's family would come a line of kings, culminating in One "Eternal King" whose kingdom would never pass away.

-Matthew’s genealogy traces the lineage of Christ back to King David.
- The King referred to in Jer 23 is Jesus, He is to reign, and prosper, execute judgment and righteousness. Judah (the Jews) will be saved and Israel will have peace.

- "The LORD our Righteousness" in Hebrew is Yahweh (Jehovah) Tsidkenu.

The Seed of David - Messianic Prophecy (Bible History Online)

Of course Matthew's genealogy goes back to David. Don't you suppose that the writer knew of the prophecy and wrote the gospel accordingly?

 

[Harikrish]

Of course Matthew's genealogy goes back to David. Don't you suppose that the writer knew of the prophecy and wrote the gospel accordingly?

Even biblical scholars don't claim they can read the mind of the authors of the bible who are all long dead. You have a historical document in the Bible. It is not a psychic ball. You have to actually read it to understand it.

 

[sojourner]

Even biblical scholars don't claim they can read the mind of the authors of the bible who are all long dead. You have a historical document in the Bible. It is not a psychic ball. You have to actually read it to understand it.

Right. You have to actually read it -- that is, you have to understand that the bias you place on the texts affects how you understand them. This kind of bias leads people to make the big mistakes of reading Jesus into any Hebrew text, and believing that OT and NT texts are highly corroborative.

 

[Harikrish]

Right. You have to actually read it -- that is, you have to understand that the bias you place on the texts affects how you understand them. This kind of bias leads people to make the big mistakes of reading Jesus into any Hebrew text, and believing that OT and NT texts are highly corroborative.

But one cannot fake a genealogy which the Jews could easily take apart. The Christians used the genealogy to authenticate Jesus's claims. The OT validates Jesus.

 

[sojourner]

But one cannot fake a genealogy which the Jews could easily take apart. The Christians used the genealogy to authenticate Jesus's claims. The OT validates Jesus.

The purpose of Matthew's genealogy wasn't to "authenticate Jesus' claims."

 

[jpmohave]

Did Paul corrupt the message of Jesus?

Actually most people don't know this but the document known as the TJ is the source for the first inception of Matthew and Paul did have a great deal to do with misinterpreting what Jesus taught. Jesus, who's real name was Jmmanuel Apollonius of Tyana, taught the purpose and meaning of life was consciousness based evolution and Paul turned that into stories about god and the devil, heaven and hell. You can review the extensive work of Professor James Deardorff at The Talmud of Jmmanuel document, upon which the Gospel of Matthew is based and see which verses of the TJ were translated into Matthew. The TJ's genuineness has been researched extensively, disregarded of course by theologians because of its proof of heresy, but none the less it was the source for Matthew. This means the entire christian religion is based on teachings that had nothing to do with the iconic figure jesus. He never taught what Christianity even follows, with the exception of being loving and kind, but the true teachings and lessons are about self development, self knowledge, and self discipline.. Learning the spiritual laws of the "Creation" to one day become one with the Creation again. I don't know what muslims claim about Paul, but the word "god" 2000 years ago was a title for a highly evolved human. not equal to the Creation/Creational Spirit.

 

[Simplelogic]

Actually most people don't know this but the document known as the TJ is the source for the first inception of Matthew and Paul did have a great deal to do with misinterpreting what Jesus taught. Jesus, who's real name was Jmmanuel Apollonius of Tyana, taught the purpose and meaning of life was consciousness based evolution and Paul turned that into stories about god and the devil, heaven and hell. You can review the extensive work of Professor James Deardorff at The Talmud of Jmmanuel document, upon which the Gospel of Matthew is based and see which verses of the TJ were translated into Matthew. The TJ's genuineness has been researched extensively, disregarded of course by theologians because of its proof of heresy, but none the less it was the source for Matthew. This means the entire christian religion is based on teachings that had nothing to do with the iconic figure jesus. He never taught what Christianity even follows, with the exception of being loving and kind, but the true teachings and lessons are about self development, self knowledge, and self discipline.. Learning the spiritual laws of the "Creation" to one day become one with the Creation again. I don't know what muslims claim about Paul, but the word "god" 2000 years ago was a title for a highly evolved human. not equal to the Creation/Creational Spirit.

Goodness. Nothing Yeshua taught had anything to do with "evolution". He taught the law of Moses in every circumstance.

 

[jpmohave]

Goodness. Nothing Yeshua taught had anything to do with "evolution". He taught the law of Moses in every circumstance.

I respect your knowledge and your life. He did indeed however teach that the purpose and meaning of life is consciousness based evolution. Being conscious is a natural progression. I challenge you to be conscious, clear in thought for 30 seconds. Do not let a single though come into your mind. That is pure consciousness but only 30 seconds is like Pre-K. A human being should be able to get to 15 minutes. If your subconscious mind takes over before 30 seconds you may consider meditation to strengthen this faculty.

The entire universe is made up consciousness. There is proof that thought influences physical matter. This is not opinion, you can easily find this even online. One step further is The Creation is holding the entire universe in thought consciousness right now. Physical matter is influences with thought. This is how Jmmanuel manipulated matter and created so called "miracles". How he healed people, how he could remote view, read minds, change water to wine etc.

Moses however took the teachings from the Petale spiritual plain and revised them. The middle of this page shows what was taught and how it was revised to suit traditional Christianity: The Future Of Mankind - A Billy Meier Wiki - God-delusion and God-delusion Insanity

 

[Simplelogic]

I respect your knowledge and your life. He did indeed however teach that the purpose and meaning of life is consciousness based evolution. Being conscious is a natural progression. I challenge you to be conscious, clear in thought for 30 seconds. Do not let a single though come into your mind. That is pure consciousness but only 30 seconds is like Pre-K. A human being should be able to get to 15 minutes. If your subconscious mind takes over before 30 seconds you may consider meditation to strengthen this faculty.

The entire universe is made up consciousness. There is proof that thought influences physical matter. This is not opinion, you can easily find this even online. One step further is The Creation is holding the entire universe in thought consciousness right now. Physical matter is influences with thought. This is how Jmmanuel manipulated matter and created so called "miracles". How he healed people, how he could remote view, read minds, change water to wine etc.

Moses however took the teachings from the Petale spiritual plain and revised them. The middle of this page shows what was taught and how it was revised to suit traditional Christianity: The Future Of Mankind - A Billy Meier Wiki - God-delusion and God-delusion Insanity

This is a mute point imho. Yeshua most certainly taught the concept of being spiritually reborn. This term has been taken completely out of context by Christianity to assume reborn has something to do with salvation. It doesn't. Our thoughts have always been able to effect the physical realm. This teaching of Yeshua was nothing new. He even scolds Nicodemas (a sage of Israel) for NOT knowing what this concept was. Many man walked in this state of mind and they were able to operate in the spiritual realm here on earth. Elijah and Elisha are two good examples of this.

My point here is that this is not progression in understanding but a return to an ancient principals which enable a man to fully walk in the spiritual realm and display miracles even. The commandments that YHVH gave Moses were to help men cultivate a trust in YHVH which enables that man to fully walk in his full physical/spiritual abilities. One does not replace the other as your opinions seem to suggest. Or maybe I am misunderstanding your position.

 

[Simplelogic]

Many men in Israel's history walked in this way and displayed miracles. Whether it was Gideon who miraculously took on a whole army with only 300 warriors. Or Joshua and his men fighting against literal giants. Or Elijah being able to shut up the heavens so that it could not rain. He also was able to call down fire from heaven on his enemies and he even raised someone from the dead! The whole story of Israel is about how YHVH wants to do supernatural things through His people who trust in His ways. This is why Yeshua was clear to teach the same commands that Moses taught, it was always about cultivating a mindset of people who operated in the supernatural realm here on earth.

 

[jpmohave]

Or Elijah being able to shut up the heavens so that it could not rain. He also was able to call down fire from heaven on his enemies and he even raised someone from the dead! The whole story of Israel is about how YHVH wants to do supernatural things through His people who trust in His ways. This is why Yeshua was clear to teach the same commands that Moses taught, it was always about cultivating a mindset of people who operated in the supernatural realm here on earth.

This is a mute point imho. Yeshua most certainly taught the concept of being spiritually reborn. This term has been taken completely out of context by Christianity to assume reborn has something to do with salvation. It doesn't. Our thoughts have always been able to effect the physical realm. This teaching of Yeshua was nothing new. He even scolds Nicodemas (a sage of Israel) for NOT knowing what this concept was. Many man walked in this state of mind and they were able to operate in the spiritual realm here on earth. Elijah and Elisha are two good examples of this.

My point here is that this is not progression in understanding but a return to an ancient principals which enable a man to fully walk in the spiritual realm and display miracles even. The commandments that YHVH gave Moses were to help men cultivate a trust in YHVH which enables that man to fully walk in his full physical/spiritual abilities. One does not replace the other as your opinions seem to suggest. Or maybe I am misunderstanding your position.

This is a mute point imho. Yeshua most certainly taught the concept of being spiritually reborn. This term has been taken completely out of context by Christianity to assume reborn has something to do with salvation. It doesn't. Our thoughts have always been able to effect the physical realm. This teaching of Yeshua was nothing new. He even scolds Nicodemas (a sage of Israel) for NOT knowing what this concept was. Many man walked in this state of mind and they were able to operate in the spiritual realm here on earth. Elijah and Elisha are two good examples of this.

My point here is that this is not progression in understanding but a return to an ancient principals which enable a man to fully walk in the spiritual realm and display miracles even. The commandments that YHVH gave Moses were to help men cultivate a trust in YHVH which enables that man to fully walk in his full physical/spiritual abilities. One does not replace the other as your opinions seem to suggest. Or maybe I am misunderstanding your position.

Thank you for politely elaborating SimpleLogic. I believe that the reborn scenario does indeed happen, and it does happen spiritually but in a form of reincarnation, not spiritually washed so to speak. Logic would support this by simply and logically examining child prodigies, in particular artists. Outside of that though the term YHVH I believe is a revision of JHWH (pronounced “ish-wish”). This term, originally taught by the master Jmmanuel who was an JHWH himself, means you have reached the highest level of knowledge and wisdom possible by a human being in physical form. Also translates into God Of Wisdom, which is where the word God came from. It originally was a title, again imho. The name Elijah is of great significance, I believe, as he was one of 7 in the lineage of the spirit Nokodmeion and the second coming of the spirit form here on earth. You can see all 7 here if you enjoy research: You will see that Jesus (jmmanuel) was actually the 5th master but highly evolved because of his father Gabriel the Plejaren.

http://www.figu.org/ch/files/downloads/buecher/goblet-of-the-truth.pdf

*Goblet of the Truth*
The book
of the entire
Teaching of the Prophets
Teaching of the truth, teaching of the spirit, teaching of the life
from
Henoch (Enoch), Elia (Elijah), Jesaja (Isaiah), Jeremia (Jeremiah),
Jmmanuel (Immanuel), Muhammad (Mohammed) and Billy (BEAM)

 

[jpmohave]

And here Muslims and Christians often but heads not knowing their teachers were one in the same teaching the same laws of the Creation. Had it not been for revisionists we would be more united. They didn't teach religion at all, they taught the spiritual knowledge of life that each individual can recognize themselves.

 

[sojourner]

Actually most people don't know this but the document known as the TJ is the source for the first inception of Matthew and Paul did have a great deal to do with misinterpreting what Jesus taught. Jesus, who's real name was Jmmanuel Apollonius of Tyana, taught the purpose and meaning of life was consciousness based evolution and Paul turned that into stories about god and the devil, heaven and hell. You can review the extensive work of Professor James Deardorff at The Talmud of Jmmanuel document, upon which the Gospel of Matthew is based and see which verses of the TJ were translated into Matthew. The TJ's genuineness has been researched extensively, disregarded of course by theologians because of its proof of heresy, but none the less it was the source for Matthew. This means the entire christian religion is based on teachings that had nothing to do with the iconic figure jesus. He never taught what Christianity even follows, with the exception of being loving and kind, but the true teachings and lessons are about self development, self knowledge, and self discipline.. Learning the spiritual laws of the "Creation" to one day become one with the Creation again. I don't know what muslims claim about Paul, but the word "god" 2000 years ago was a title for a highly evolved human. not equal to the Creation/Creational Spirit.

I respect your knowledge and your life. He did indeed however teach that the purpose and meaning of life is consciousness based evolution. Being conscious is a natural progression. I challenge you to be conscious, clear in thought for 30 seconds. Do not let a single though come into your mind. That is pure consciousness but only 30 seconds is like Pre-K. A human being should be able to get to 15 minutes. If your subconscious mind takes over before 30 seconds you may consider meditation to strengthen this faculty.

The entire universe is made up consciousness. There is proof that thought influences physical matter. This is not opinion, you can easily find this even online. One step further is The Creation is holding the entire universe in thought consciousness right now. Physical matter is influences with thought. This is how Jmmanuel manipulated matter and created so called "miracles". How he healed people, how he could remote view, read minds, change water to wine etc.

Moses however took the teachings from the Petale spiritual plain and revised them. The middle of this page shows what was taught and how it was revised to suit traditional Christianity: The Future Of Mankind - A Billy Meier Wiki - God-delusion and God-delusion Insanity

Calling your bluff. This is nothing more than UFOlogy, conspiracy theory and New Age hooey, without an ounce of scholarly integrity.

 

[jpmohave]

Calling your bluff. This is nothing more than UFOlogy, conspiracy theory and New Age hooey, without an ounce of scholarly integrity.

I'm calling your neuroplasticity and your bluff. You did close to zero research, have your mind already made up about life outside our planet, and therefore could hardly accept life outside our universe if our own government endorsed it. Which is really a mathematical impossibility for there not to be. There is nothing new age about it, its been going on since time immemorial. There are no conspiracies, ufology is nothing more than saying people from different countries are aliens which we already do. Just because someone is from a different planet doesn't mean they're not human beings. There's no conspiracy about life outside of earth its pretty common knowledge for many people. Unless of course you believe the earth was created in 7 days a few thousand years ago. Then just ignore this string.....politely spoken.

 

[sojourner]

I'm calling your neuroplasticity and your bluff. You did close to zero research, have your mind already made up about life outside our planet, and therefore could hardly accept life outside our universe if our own government endorsed it. Which is really a mathematical impossibility for there not to be. There is nothing new age about it, its been going on since time immemorial. There are no conspiracies, ufology is nothing more than saying people from different countries are aliens which we already do. Just because someone is from a different planet doesn't mean they're not human beings. There's no conspiracy about life outside of earth its pretty common knowledge for many people. Unless of course you believe the earth was created in 7 days a few thousand years ago. Then just ignore this string.....politely spoken.

Sorry. I already got dibs on the bluff-calling. You've no idea what I've done in research. Billy's got 0, zip, nada respect in the scholastic/theological community. UFOlogy's got 0, zip, nada to do with theology, with the bible, or with any other legitimate discipline. As a matter of fact, I don't "have my mind already made up about life outside our planet," but I don't treat conjecture and curiosity as if it were scientific fact, or in the least cogent to biblical theology. The idea of "secret wisdom" elevating individuals is patently nothing more than snake-oil New Ageism, and has nothing to do with orthodox Christianity, which has enjoyed historical legitimacy for 2000 years. To say that the biblical texts have been fooled with to the extent that "everything we know is wrong," is nothing more than conspiracy theory, thinly-veiled as "scholarship." I've been involved in the religion dog-and-pony show professionally for a loooong time, both from the perspective of orthodox Christianity was well as the perspective of New Age spirituality. You're not going to pull any wool over my eyes here.

But be sure and let me know when Bigfoot communicates with the Greys, becomes "enlightened" with ancient wisdom, and becomes one with the tunnel network connecting all the top-security military bases in the U.S. It's at that point that I'll take the double-secret 34th Masonic degree and put in my application for the Illuminati.

 

[Simplelogic]

I'm calling your neuroplasticity and your bluff. You did close to zero research, have your mind already made up about life outside our planet, and therefore could hardly accept life outside our universe if our own government endorsed it. Which is really a mathematical impossibility for there not to be. There is nothing new age about it, its been going on since time immemorial. There are no conspiracies, ufology is nothing more than saying people from different countries are aliens which we already do. Just because someone is from a different planet doesn't mean they're not human beings. There's no conspiracy about life outside of earth its pretty common knowledge for many people. Unless of course you believe the earth was created in 7 days a few thousand years ago. Then just ignore this string.....politely spoken.

Okie dokie

 

[Simplelogic]

And here Muslims and Christians often but heads not knowing their teachers were one in the same teaching the same laws of the Creation. Had it not been for revisionists we would be more united. They didn't teach religion at all, they taught the spiritual knowledge of life that each individual can recognize themselves.

I believe both Christianity and Islam to be slight distortions of the covenant which YHVH made with Israel. Islam maintains that the blessings descend through Ishmael. Not Isaac. They also hold to a different law structure which has parts of the Torah sprinkled throughout.

Christianity was formed primarily out of the doctrines of Paul. Paul believed in gentile replacement of the Jewish people. He taught that gentiles who believed were the new spiritual Israel and that the covenant with Israel had been transferred to Christians. Paul also believe that the covenant and the law itself had been replaced and was no longer valid.

If you have taken the time to read the 4 gospels and Johns revelation, you will find that Yeshua taught the exact same commandments that YHVH gave to Moses. Of course if you don't hold these texts as reliable then we probably won't agree. No problem.

 

[DrTCH]

Did Paul corrupt the message of Jesus?

This is a tricky question, as there is so much "water under the bridge" (and a huge opportunity to alter the Scripture, through the centuries--for various reasons--since then), but--in my opinion, this is a definite YES.

As one of the responders inplied, Paul (though ostensibly a Jew and a Roman citizen) had an essentially Greek perspective. One key aspect of this was his defining of "sins" as discrete acts, while a Jew would have described "sin" more in terms of one's relationship with Spirit, not in how many "mistakes" he has committed (and, in essence, "keeping score"). He had a markedly dark, pessimistic view of mankind (seen as a depraved, fallen creature), and was particularly negative regarding women and human sexuality. Finally, his position mostly "came out of the blue" (perhaps during an epileptic fit!) and not on JC's teachings (a man whom he never even met!) was distinctly different from that of the Jerusalem church. Because of these facts, I find main-line Church dogma-doctrine--mostly from Paul, Augustine and Aquinas--to be very problematic. And the "Fundies" are even worse...distinctly warped and what might be called unsophisticated or "hokie." What's more, Christianity borrowed whole boat-loads of stuff from paganism...then was markedly intolerant of other traditions (even burning entire libraries in the course of this, which I consider solidly barbaric, rapacious and criminal).

My feeling is that some general Christian principles, like the "Golden Rule" and a few sayings such as "You are the sons of the Living God," "What you sow is what you'll reap," and "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you."...is pretty heavy-duty, wonderful material...but I'd prefer to chuck most of the rest. And, absolutely the blame-shame junk...and the substance upon which Calvin and Zwingli (and Jonathon Edwards) based their detestable sermons. Am I a "sinner?" Nope...like any human being, I am a wonderful creation of Spirit with all kinds of potential..who perhaps has not always "hit the mark," but I've been in there punching...and I like to think I've been the author of some neat, creative projects...and some very nifty hugs. Finally, much of what seems the product of sin...I would argue is the result of psychopathology..such as the horren-dous wars which we keep prosecuting, endlessly. I don't think there is anything like Satan in this world, but these wars and other very worrisome policies and behavior--such as extra-legal rendition and torture--come pretty damn close to the personification of evil. PEACE.

 

[FollowTheWay]

Re Muslims, if you put your head in the garbage bin you'll only get sick.

Paul was taught by Yashua Messiah - Period.

Yashua Messiah was under The Law - Period.

Paul, John, Peter, James were under Grace - Period

There is a simplicity that is in Christ - Period