Are Mystical Experiences Delusional?

[Sunstone]

Are mystical experiences delusional? How would you know?

For the purposes of this thread, a mystical experience is an experience in which subject/object perception comes to an end while experiencing remains.

BONUS QUESTION: Is normal, non-mystical experiencing delusional? How would you know?

 

[rojse]

Are mystical experiences delusional? How would you know?

For the purposes of this thread, a mystical experience is an experience in which subject/object perception comes to an end while experiencing remains.

BONUS QUESTION: Is normal, non-mystical experiencing delusional? How would you know?

Here is an interesting article from Wiki: neurotheology, or the study of how people think when having a spiritual experience. It seems to be quite a fledgeling as an area of science right now, and has a lot of problems. If anyone has a more authoritative link than this, I would love to have a look at it.

I don't think mystical experiences are delusions. Whether these experiences are actually indicative of what the person experiencing them believes the experiences to be is another question entirely, but spiritual beliefs are too widespread to be dismissed as merely being delusions.

 

[Sunstone]

Is there any reason to assert that experiencing the world as divided between subject and object is not delusional?

 

[rojse]

Is there any reason to assert that experiencing the world as divided between subject and object is not delusional?

Not quite following you, Sunstone.

 

[whereismynotecard]

What is delusion?

 

[rojse]

What is delusion?

It's an insistence that the world is different from what it actually is, regardless of evidence presented.

From the MedicineNet dictionary (Delusion definition - Mental Health Disorders on MedicineNet.com)

Delusion: A false personal belief that is not subject to reason or contradictory evidence and is not explained by a person's usual cultural and religious concepts (so that, for example, it is not an article of faith). A delusion may be firmly maintained in the face of incontrovertible evidence that it is false. Delusions are a frequent feature of schizophrenia.

The definition specifically differentiates between beliefs that can be explained through cultural or religious affiliations, and those that cannot.

 

[Sunstone]

Not quite following you, Sunstone.

Normal experience is characterized by the perception of a division between object and subject, between the person or thing that experiences and the thing experienced. For example: In normal experience, when I see (i.e. experience) my neighbor, I perceive my neighbor to be other than me. But how do I know this otherness, this sense of separation, is not a delusion? After all, in mystical experiencing, there is no perception of a division between subject and object. So who is to say that mystical experiencing is not true and that normal experiencing is not delusional?

 

[whereismynotecard]

Normal experience is characterized by the perception of a division between object and subject, between the person or thing that experiences and the thing experienced. For example: In normal experience, when I see (i.e. experience) my neighbor, I perceive my neighbor to be other than me. But how do I know this otherness, this sense of separation, is not a delusion? After all, in mystical experiencing, there is no perception of a division between subject and object. So who is to say that mystical experiencing is not true and that normal experiencing is not delusional?

There is no way to know. Crazy people don't know they are crazy, so you might be crazy, and you wouldn't know it...

 

[rojse]

Normal experience is characterized by the perception of a division between object and subject, between the person or thing that experiences and the thing experienced. For example: In normal experience, when I see (i.e. experience) my neighbor, I perceive my neighbor to be other than me. But how do I know this otherness, this sense of separation, is not a delusion? After all, in mystical experiencing, there is no perception of a division between subject and object. So who is to say that mystical experiencing is not true and that normal experiencing is not delusional?

Who says that mystical experiences indicate that different entities are perceived as being one, though?

 

[Caladan]

Is there any reason to assert that experiencing the world as divided between subject and object is not delusional?

Delusional is a strong world, it is simply the reality of interaction between a living creature and the world around in order to function in this world. the subject has its purpose and likewise the object has its role.

Mystical experiences may fall into these moments when individuals transcende the daily perception and perceptive experience in general. when subject and object lose their daily meaning and perhaps something greater is revealed.

the question is, what are the sensual conditions for this to occur, does such an intense experience have been traditionally a result of hallucinogenic consumption?
it is no wonder, that many societies have embraced a ritualistic experience around certain substances in order to reflect of the world beyond the normal subject-object frequency.
certain critics may say its delusional in that the person is seeing and experiencing things that are projected from his mind, while other critics may simply define it as a spiritual experience indeed projected from the mind, but nevertheless still significant in its symbolism.

 

[Sunstone]

Who says that mystical experiences indicate that different entities are perceived as being one, though?

This is a little bit like asking who says evolution occurs. It's not the opinion of any one person. Mystics have reported that experience throughout history and regardless of their cultural background.

 

[Sunstone]

the question is, what are the sensual conditions for this to occur, does such an intense experience have been traditionally a result of hallucinogenic consumption?

To be sure, you cannot reduce all mystical experiences to being drug induced -- not unless you are prepared to say the Buddha's experience of enlightenment was induced by drugs.

certain critics may say its delusional in that the person is seeing and experiencing things that are projected from his mind, while other critics may simply define it as a spiritual experience indeed projected from the mind, but nevertheless still significant in its symbolism.

Critics never get anything right, do they?

 

[Caladan]

To be sure, you cannot reduce all mystical experiences to being drug induced -- not unless you are prepared to say the Buddha's experience of enlightenment was induced by drugs.

Here we enter the realm of speculation. was the Buddha's historicity as real as tradition tells us? did Jesus return from the dead?
furthermore there are historical accounts of priestly classes taking substances in order to induce mystical culmination in the initiation rites, we do know about a long history of mystical experience based on substance cultivation.
we do not have substantial material to relate in such a way to mystical experiences which are a result of a spiritual life, however we can display some critical thought in discerning between tradition and history. what we have are personal accounts of people, and folklore, two grey areas, both highly interesting.

Critics never get anything right, do they?

By critic I actually mean an individual with a set of opinions.

 

[Troublemane]

Just because you're paranoid doesnt mean they aren't really out to get you.

I guess thats the point of mysticism, is seeing the world as being a big delusion, so not taking it too seriously. I mean, yeah, hardcore scientists tend to say everything is based on gross material causes, and everything runs due to direct/localized mechanical forces. But really, how is belief in a mechanical force any different from an all-powerful God willing the Universe to behave in a predictable way?

And when the universe behaves in a way that defies the logic of a regular predictable clockwork type thing, then the scientists must say "Oh well, that just shows we need more tweaking to our model, but I have faith it will all be explained by science in the end..."

I think the mystical view is superior because it embraces a view that is more inclusive, morally and synergically, than the purely objective fiction that is science. :angel2:

 

[Willamena]

Are mystical experiences delusional? How would you know?

For the purposes of this thread, a mystical experience is an experience in which subject/object perception comes to an end while experiencing remains.

Depends on which "mystic" you ask, and how they've interpreted their "experience".

BONUS QUESTION: Is normal, non-mystical experiencing delusional? How would you know?

Depends on which "person" you ask, and how they've interpreted their "experience".

 

[Buttons*]

Are mystical experiences delusional? How would you know?

For the purposes of this thread, a mystical experience is an experience in which subject/object perception comes to an end while experiencing remains.

BONUS QUESTION: Is normal, non-mystical experiencing delusional? How would you know?

1) Probably not...
2) I am a mystic... and I'm not delusional.
bonus: Not really - all experiences are valid in the scope of life.
How would I know? I don't, I just believe it.

 

[rojse]

This is a little bit like asking who says evolution occurs. It's not the opinion of any one person. Mystics have reported that experience throughout history and regardless of their cultural background.

I'm not debating that mystical experiences exist here, Sunstone. I agree that mystical experiences occur, but whether they have the same significance that theists give these experiences is a different question entirely. But that's a different thread topic.

Now, I am interested in seeing some reason as to why you generalised that these mystical experiences depicted a de-emphasis of the self, and emphasised the inter-connected nature of what we normally perceive as discrete objects.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Are mystical experiences delusional? How would you know?

For the purposes of this thread, a mystical experience is an experience in which subject/object perception comes to an end while experiencing remains.

BONUS QUESTION: Is normal, non-mystical experiencing delusional? How would you know?

Mystical experiences in themselves are definitely not delusional, but when normal consciousness returns and the subject believes it was they who had the experience, then that is delusional, but its a delusion due to ignorance, and not that an awesome cosmic event beyond the ken of the mortal mind didn't transpire.

Many posters here at RF including this one report having had a mystical experience, but speaking for myself, on the first occasion I did initially sincerely believe it was I (subject) who had the experience. Fortunately an advanced disciple who understood what had occurred rebuked me for my presumption that it was the self same 'I' present during the mystical experience that later was explaining to others of 'my' mystical experience. Even then I did not understand no matter how much I tried to, as to why it was not I who experienced it. To set me in the right direction, I was asked to have as the highest priority in my life to find out who I am. but also that before I could truly ask that question in earnest, I must first find out what I am.

The original mystical experience occurred when I was 36 years of age and I am now 66, and so after this time I am prepared to say is yes, IMHO the normal reality as perceived by myself through a subject-object 3D space/time relationship framework is definitely delusional relative to the mystical non-dual 'glimpses' of Grace.

Though this last point is most probably superfluous for the astute posters of this thread, please do understand that it is understood that the veracity of this statement can never be proven to another for the reason that requirement for proof is an integral part of the cosmic nether region's subject/object dualistic consciousness where the mortal mind finds delight in the continuation of 'eating' of the pablum of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Alla Prima]

Is there any reason to assert that experiencing the world as divided between subject and object is not delusional?

Yes, ignorance.

 

[Alla Prima]

Are mystical experiences delusional? How would you know?

For the purposes of this thread, a mystical experience is an experience in which subject/object perception comes to an end while experiencing remains.

BONUS QUESTION: Is normal, non-mystical experiencing delusional? How would you know?

The knowledge of this can be had through analytical meditation.