Are Mystical Experiences Delusional?

[rojse]

The point that seems to be missed by many posters is that the medical definition of delusion explicitly excludes religion.

The OP question, then, is "Can a phenomena be categorised as a medical condition that explicitly excludes that phenomena in a medical diagnosis?"

It's like asking if a plant is an animal.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The point that seems to be missed by many posters is that the medical definition of delusion explicitly excludes religion.

The OP question, then, is "Can a phenomena be categorised as a medical condition that explicitly excludes that phenomena in a medical diagnosis?"

It's like asking if a plant is an animal.

Hi rojse, appreciate your contribution, but do you really find it odd that most of the posters on RF don't use words according to the medical definition, but rather use them according to the meaning as generally understood in religious dialogue.

The term 'delusion' is used extensively in the religious traditions to imply ignorance or error, i.e. people who are living in 'maya', but believe it is the one and only reality.

 

[Sunstone]

The point that seems to be missed by many posters is that the medical definition of delusion explicitly excludes religion.

The OP question, then, is "Can a phenomena be categorised as a medical condition that explicitly excludes that phenomena in a medical diagnosis?"

It's like asking if a plant is an animal.

Perhaps you can explain what the medical definition of delusion has to do with anything? The notion the "medical definition" is somehow binding on us -- is somehow the definition that must be used here -- is a notion best left to comedians.

 

[Sunstone]

The knowledge of this can be had through analytical meditation.

The knowledge of what?

 

[Sunstone]

Yes, ignorance.

Could you elaborate?

 

[Sunstone]

I'm not debating that mystical experiences exist here, Sunstone. I agree that mystical experiences occur, but whether they have the same significance that theists give these experiences is a different question entirely. But that's a different thread topic.

Rojse, no where have I stated that you do not believe mystical experiences occur. You have utterly misunderstood me.

Now, I am interested in seeing some reason as to why you generalised that these mystical experiences depicted a de-emphasis of the self, and emphasised the inter-connected nature of what we normally perceive as discrete objects.

Why don't you start a thread on the kind of mystical experiences you yourself wish to discuss. In this thread we are discussing those kinds of mystical experiences that involved an end to subject/object perception while experiencing continues. I attempted to make that clear in the OP.

As for whether such experiences are common among mystics, I know of no studies to suggest they either are or are not.

 

[Sunstone]

Here we enter the realm of speculation. was the Buddha's historicity as real as tradition tells us? did Jesus return from the dead?
furthermore there are historical accounts of priestly classes taking substances in order to induce mystical culmination in the initiation rites, we do know about a long history of mystical experience based on substance cultivation.
we do not have substantial material to relate in such a way to mystical experiences which are a result of a spiritual life, however we can display some critical thought in discerning between tradition and history. what we have are personal accounts of people, and folklore, two grey areas, both highly interesting.

Can you actually be suggesting that all mystical experiences are drug induced?

 

[sandandfoam]

Critics never get anything right, do they?

Brendan Behan compared critics to eunuchs in a harem. He was right about a lot of things

 

[Storm]

Are mystical experiences delusional?

I would have to say no.

How would you know?

Well, for starters, I don't think any experience is inherently delusional, it's all about the conclusions we draw from them. However, I suspect the conclusions are what you meant in the first place, so I'll let that one go.

More importantly, I understand "delusional" to mean, at a minimum, "demonstrably false." We simply don't understand mystical experiences well enough for them to be delusional.

Is normal, non-mystical experiencing delusional? How would you know?

Again, no. Nothing is certain, but at some point, you have to pick a reality and go with it.

 

[sandandfoam]

Are mystical experiences delusional?

I don't know. They are real to those who have them and I think that's enough.

How would you know?

I don't think anyone could know in any measurable way. I don't think this is a bad thing either.

BONUS QUESTION: Is normal, non-mystical experiencing delusional? How would you know?

I don't believe in 'normal'

 

[Alla Prima]

Could you elaborate?

Ignorance (the mind that grasps at essense), can rightfully be claimed as a reason to assert that the experience of the world as divided between subject and object is not delusional. Though ultimately false, it is nonetheless an active and pervasive reasoning and perfectly logical to the one making the claim.

 

[Caladan]

Can you actually be suggesting that all mystical experiences are drug induced?

Thats not what im saying at all.
I am however saying, that we need to take into account the nature of the material we work with, as we can clearly see the problematic trends in describing mystical experiences in the modern age, we can get an idea from the many new age and other literature which is filled with pseudo scientific gibberish.

 

[Alla Prima]

Are mystical experiences delusional? How would you know?

For the purposes of this thread, a mystical experience is an experience in which subject/object perception comes to an end while experiencing remains.

The presence of delusion would prohibit this experience.

 

[YmirGF]

Are mystical experiences delusional? How would you know?

To me, Phil, I try to never let this possibility get very far away from my thinking. For me, the day I decide my experience is definitely NOT delusion will be the day I have succumbed to delusion - in all senses of the word. That makes me a perennial "Doubting Thomas".

For the purposes of this thread, a mystical experience is an experience in which subject/object perception comes to an end while experiencing remains.

What amuses me so is that this quality, if you will, is just the tip of the iceberg to an entirely different way of perceiving reality. There is much more beyond this "feature", though as Ben D touched on, it is incredibly difficult to render what lays beyond this stage into words.

BONUS QUESTION: Is normal, non-mystical experiencing delusional? How would you know?

That's just it though, Phil. If it was a reality/delusion it isn't likely one would know. If everyone was in the same boat, their experience would simply mirror and support you own... gee... just like in "real" life.
Knowing (conceptually, at least) that you are in a necessary reality/delusion does help though. Knowing that it is a self-created reality/delusion helps to allow one to poke out of that reality/delusion as perception permits.

Perhaps this is all confusing, but to me reality is something you never stop doubting. Delusion occurs when you remove all doubt.

 

[Valjean]

I'd say the best evidence for normal perception being delusional is that it's so at varience with Reality as described by modern physics. The world as we perceive it is not physically possible.
Why a creature that perceives only three of the Universe' multiple dimensions; that can't perceive the equivalence of time and space, or gravity and acceleration; whose primary sense perceives only the thinest sliver of the broad EM spectrum known to exist, should think it's senses are presenting anything but an abstraction I don't understand.

The Reality of the mystical experience is trickier. Advocates will point out that it actually is congruent with the quantum, relativistic Reality of physics, and that the experience seems identical across diverse cultures and times. But it remains a subjective revelation. It can't be communicated, examined or tested, so it must remain an article of faith by any who've not experienced it.

 

[spacejanitor]

Then how does one know if he/she is delusional or not? Is not delusion like conceit? It affects those around the one that is afflicted.

Matt

 

[Valjean]

Not at all. Delusion is a dream.
When we wake from dream-state we immediately realize the dream that a moment ago had seemed real was completely illusory. When a mystic wakes from waking-state exactly the same realization obtains.

 

[spacejanitor]

Not at all. Delusion is a dream.
When we wake from dream-state we immediately realize the dream that a moment ago had seemed real was completely illusory. When a mystic wakes from waking-state exactly the same realization obtains.

Then reality is nothing more than the perception of the one that is experiencing what he or she perceives to be real?

 

[Valjean]

Subjective reality is just that, janitor -- real to the experiencer. Mystics, however contend that consciousness can expand to grok the whole multi-dimensional, timeless Universe; a "cosmic consciousness" where the Objective multiversal Reality is directly perceived.

 

[spacejanitor]

Subjective reality is just that, janitor -- real to the experiencer. Mystics, however contend that consciousness can expand to grok the whole multi-dimensional, timeless Universe; a "cosmic consciousness" where the Objective multiversal Reality is directly perceived.

.

The concept of never ending, meaning no begininng and no end is a tough concept for anyone including mystics. But on the other hand, I would hate to think that we are the only ones of intelligence...otherwise...wouldn't that be a great waste of space?