• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Are pagan gods more logical in a theological sense

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No you confuse Wicca with Witchcraft, Wiccans believe in a god and goddess

I don't confuse anything. First, it was quite a while before it became important among Wiccans to make that distinction. Gardner himself wrote Witchcraft Today, Starhawk wrote in The Spiral Dance "We are an evolving, dynamic tradition and proudly call ourselves Witches. Honoring both Goddess and God, we work with emale and male images of divinity..." (emphases added), in Drawing Down the Moon, Margot Adler stated that "Participants in the Witchcraft revival generally use Witch to mean simply an initiate of the religion Wicca", among the many publications by Farrar we find the (co-authored) book Progressive Witchcraft: Spirituality, Mysteries, & Training in Modern Wicca which relies upon "wicca as witch" as the basis for (some) of modern Wicca (and notes that the term is Anglo-Saxon, although they deliberately use the feminine wicce when explaining the etymology as wicca is masculine), and Valiente (as responsible for Wicca as any excepting Gardner) repeatedly equated Wicca & Witch so much so that in her An ABC of Witchcraft Past & Present she doesn't even have an entry for wicca, just witchcraft.

Second, I said "Wicca doesn't have a god" because I intended to indicate that they had two. I was using the gender neutral sense, but I grant this is confusing (I should have said deities).



besides Dianic Wiccans which believes only in a goddess
Not all. Yes, Z. Budapest's tradition (which was originally only named "Wicca' but later was given the appellation "Dianic") was heavily influenced by feminism and excluded any masculine deity. Hers did not remain the only Dianic tradition.

Due to misportrayal in media, many have believed that being a witch and being a wiccan is the same thing.
No, that's what the first Wiccans ensured and emphasized. Gardner deliberately chose a word that meant "witch" in Old English to link Wicca & Witch as well as his tradition to his created lineage/history of it. It wasn't until there were sufficiently many distinct neopagan/wiccan/witchcraft/etc. traditions that identified themselves as witches the distinction became emphasized (one could be a witch but not a Wiccan). However, plenty of witches who don't identify as Wiccan do not worship "a deity."

Because of the media saying witch and wiccan are one and the same many witches (or wanna be witches) are saying their "wiccan" or "wiccan-christian".
I thought all the "wanna-be" stuff was behind us. Are we still using terms like "fluffy bunny wiccan" and trashing "teen wiccans" who read sell-outs like Ravenwolf too?
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Funny, I hate gaming. I feel out of the norm because of it. I just have no interest in video games yet love computers and tech.
When I was a teen I wanted a PS3 so badly when it first came out then I just stopped caring about gaming when I started PC gaming on a laptop.
I played some of the major console ports and that was it.
I hated gaming in a matter of weeks and lost interest entirely.

Hey, to each their own. :yes: (Though for the record, the bulk of major game releases that have come out lately have been... substandard, at best.)
 

AsheCorvus

New Member
I don't confuse anything. First, it was quite a while before it became important among Wiccans to make that distinction. Gardner himself wrote Witchcraft Today, Starhawk wrote in The Spiral Dance "We are an evolving, dynamic tradition and proudly call ourselves Witches. Honoring both Goddess and God, we work with emale and male images of divinity..." (emphases added), in Drawing Down the Moon, Margot Adler stated that "Participants in the Witchcraft revival generally use Witch to mean simply an initiate of the religion Wicca", among the many publications by Farrar we find the (co-authored) book Progressive Witchcraft: Spirituality, Mysteries, & Training in Modern Wicca which relies upon "wicca as witch" as the basis for (some) of modern Wicca (and notes that the term is Anglo-Saxon, although they deliberately use the feminine wicce when explaining the etymology as wicca is masculine), and Valiente (as responsible for Wicca as any excepting Gardner) repeatedly equated Wicca & Witch so much so that in her An ABC of Witchcraft Past & Present she doesn't even have an entry for wicca, just witchcraft.

Second, I said "Wicca doesn't have a god" because I intended to indicate that they had two. I was using the gender neutral sense, but I grant this is confusing (I should have said deities).




Not all. Yes, Z. Budapest's tradition (which was originally only named "Wicca' but later was given the appellation "Dianic") was heavily influenced by feminism and excluded any masculine deity. Hers did not remain the only Dianic tradition.


No, that's what the first Wiccans ensured and emphasized. Gardner deliberately chose a word that meant "witch" in Old English to link Wicca & Witch as well as his tradition to his created lineage/history of it. It wasn't until there were sufficiently many distinct neopagan/wiccan/witchcraft/etc. traditions that identified themselves as witches the distinction became emphasized (one could be a witch but not a Wiccan). However, plenty of witches who don't identify as Wiccan do not worship "a deity."


I thought all the "wanna-be" stuff was behind us. Are we still using terms like "fluffy bunny wiccan" and trashing "teen wiccans" who read sell-outs like Ravenwolf too?

You make some very good points, thank you for that. I spoke from my own experiences. However if you are to believe in the works of Gardner, then the Gardenian branch of Wicca was not the first. It is highly likely that several different types of pagans that where witches worked together to hide from the inquisition. Over time they developed a religion based on a mixture of their own experiences and these distinct pagan religions in order to make the Neo-Pagan religion Wicca.

Saying that I could be wrong in this, however just because Gardner stressed that a practitioner of Wicca is a witch, does not mean that he believed that Voodoo, Shamanism, Satanism, and Druidism could not be a witch.

Just because as a Wiccan I practice witchcraft and am therefore a witch does not mean that anyone else who practices a different type of witchcraft is not a witch.

But either way, I thank you for your comment. I love to read/hear what learned/intelligent people have to say.
 
The earth is a "testing ground".
God is like a football coach who told us how to play and gave us free will to listen to him, and now he's sitting on the sidelines to watch how we do, he's not going to keep running on the pitch himself or the test would be worthless..:)
Another way to look at it is to regard him as operating under a kind of Star Fleet Prime Directive-"No interference with the development of a planet"

Then at the end of the tough game we find out if we've passed or flunked-
"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life.." (James 1:12)

Satan and 1/3 of the Angels KNEW God existed and still rejected him. So the premise of God's empirical existence nullifying freewill is FALISFIED!



Philotech. I agree that if there are deities it would have to be polytheistic pantheon. The fact that smallpox has been eradicated with no ill ecological effects show that there is more then a minimal ( or unnecessary) amount of human suffering required for a realty thus FALSIFING any hypothesis of a omnibenevolent monotheistic deity.
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
I think that pagan gods are more honest. They are human creations designed to serve human purposes.

The problem with Christianity is that they think that their gods aren't a clumsily patched up pantheon. Make the gods inhuman and they cease to serve human purposes. Hence the bloodshed.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You make some very good points, thank you for that.

No problem. And I should apologize for coming on to strongly and critically. It just so happens that this particular question was true research project I began and research paper I wrote (outside of school), before college, before grad school, and I think before I had received my high school diploma (I received it late, as I dropped out of high school but later took college courses for high school credit), which hopefully excuses its deficiencies: Magic, Witchcraft, and Religion: Problems with Terminology.

Most of what I wrote there I would agree with in essence, even though I'd re-write the entire thing if I had the time and inclination (I actually did address ancient witchcraft at least once as an undergrad, but only tangentially and only as the term is used negatively not to refer to the witchcraft of modern traditions- Wiccan or no:
Proto-Feminist or Misogynist? Medea as a case study of gendered discourse in Euripidean drama



then the Gardenian branch of Wicca was not the first.
The above "study" goes into the development & history of Gardnerian wicca a bit (pp. 16-19).

It is highly likely that several different types of pagans that where witches worked together to hide from the inquisition.
I cover witch-trials in pp. 5-9, but as with the rest of the paper I could now say so much more, especially of the persecution of witches in ancient Greece, the Hellenistic world, and the Roman world. The basic elements though, haven't changed despite the vast amount of research I hadn't yet read or which hadn't yet been carried out. The core to this historical account stands or falls virtually entirely with the works of Margaret Murray, an Egyptologist who was somewhat "forced" into that field thanks to rampant sexism in academia. Alas for Murray her historical account never gained acceptance and subsequent research utterly demolished it. Interestingly, this was not true of a more radical theory championed primarily by Gimbutas concerning matriarchal prehistory. Her theory was commonly accepted until Ucko's 1968 monograph Anthropomorphic Figurines of Predynastic Egypt and Neolithic Crete with Comparative Material from the Prehistoric Near East and Mainland Greece and Fleming's 1969 paper "The myth of the mother‐goddess". These two critiques opened the flood gates, but even among scholars it took some time to come to a consensus. Meanwhile, various neopagans were producing and consuming a great deal of semi-scholarly material on the nature of the Goddess from a historical viewpoint (I use that term "neopagan" here loosely to include Wicca, Witchcraft outside of Wicca, modern Druidry, Hedge witches, and all those who worshipped the Goddess or incorporated her into their practice/spirituality/tradition).

Despite even feminist criticisms (see esp. Dr. Cynthia Eller's The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory: Why an Invented Past Won't Give Women a Future), and unlike the acceptance of the kind of historical witchcraft inherent in early Wiccan traditions, here we find a trend towards the irrelevance of history to the Mother-Goddess archetype. Many if not most modern Witches and Wiccans have dropped the once universal connection of their tradition with an actual, historical religion or The Craft, and instead looked to the (true) connections of their practices with a number of occult traditions, societies, and ceremonial magic (itself rooted in certain religious/cultic practices from antiquity). By contrast, the worship of the Mother-Goddess as an ancient and universal archetype representing (among other things) the Divine Feminine continues, even though often with the recognition that there was no conception of a singular entity in antiquity nor evidence for matriarchy in prehistory. A concise expression of this attitude may be found in Dr. Rosemary Radford Ruether's Godesses and the Divine Feminine: "This book restates my own ongoing reflection on this history over a fifty-year period. It expresses a critique of theories of ancient matriarchy, while at the same time affirming the movements that seek to reinterpret those roots today for a feminist-ecological spirituality. My hope is to further an alliance among the many forms of religious feminism, while recognizing that we are all reinterpreting ancient traditions and imagery that are ambivalent and whose ancient meaning is lost to us. I believe that we share mostly common values, and I also believe that we are all being beaten with the same stick by fundamentalists, for whom 'lesbian feminist witch' is the common label for us all."

Over time they developed a religion based on a mixture of their own experiences and these distinct pagan religions in order to make the Neo-Pagan religion Wicca.
So far as I know, Ronald Hutton's The Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft remains the most thorough and most credible analysis of the emergence of modern Wicca and witchcraft. He has the advantage of being a professional historian and of being raised (neo)pagan. It is not intended for the layperson, which is kind of ironic given its popularity. In fact, so many neopagans have expressed both great interest in that book and his earlier The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles: Their Nature and Legacy, yet also much dismay at their relatively dense, academic/scholarly nature that he responded by publishing two versions of his book on druids: one for fellow historians/scholars, and the other for the neopagan communities. If you are interested on the history of Wicca, I'd start with his book.

Saying that I could be wrong in this, however just because Gardner stressed that a practitioner of Wicca is a witch, does not mean that he believed that Voodoo, Shamanism, Satanism, and Druidism could not be a witch.

True. However, at that time there was very much a desire to lay claim to an authentic, direct link to a coven with an ancient legacy and quickly much competition as others emerged whose authority rested upon their connection with the uninterrupted practice of a particular witchcraft religion or "Old Religion".

A decent and concise account by insiders of the origins both of various Wiccan and Witchcraft traditions as well as neopaganism/pagan revivals in general can be found in the introduction to Witchcraft Today: An Encyclopedia of Wiccan and Neopagan Traditions

I link to it primarily because it is online and free, but it is also somewhat dated. Also, the author relies perhaps more than he should on Dr. Aiden Kelley (a founder of two large Witchcraft societies/organizations). Dr. Kelley wrote the first more or less "academic" account of the origins of Wicca (Crafting the Art of Magic) but the invaluable information he provided is offset by the monographs vicious polemic aimed particularly at Gardner and the legitimacy of Gardnerian Wicca. However, he also relies on other inside sources like Valiente as well as scholars like Ronald Hutton and Cynthia Eller.

That said, the author covers a lot of history and a the development, nature, and origins of a great many neopagan traditions in a relatively short chapter (the intro).

Just because as a Wiccan I practice witchcraft and am therefore a witch does not mean that anyone else who practices a different type of witchcraft is not a witch.
I couldn't agree more. You're absolutely right.
 
Top