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Are people born inherently atheist?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
What I meant is that there is no label that exists that can only be self-applied.
Then why did you make an argument that implies the exact opposite?

So, to answer your question, a label that refers (at least in part) to mental "contents" is only accurately if the mental states exist. This includes everything from being a soccer fan to being a radical environmentalist.
In this case, the label "atheist" refers to the absence of a "mental state", theism. It doesn't matter whether it is absent in an "infant" way or an "adult" way; in either case, the question is whether it's absent, not what else is there.

You mean, like calling someone dishonest, accusing them of deliberate distortion, or using fallacious reasoning deliberately as a conscious ploy? Like you did?
The difference between "atheism doesn't require rejection of gods" and "no atheists have any concept of god" is the difference between "this club doesn't charge a cover" and "everyone in this club is broke." I suppose I jumped to a conclusion by assuming that you couldn't have understood the distinction, but I think it's understandable.

I only said that granting all definitions of theists doesn't fix the problem of defining atheism because there would be overlap. I did not say nor did I imply that the solution was to say certain theists weren't actually theists. You assumed that.
You didn't say it, but your argument implied it. You argued "we need a definition for theist, atheist, and god regardless of belief".

This didn't just read into what I said, it contradicted the definition of atheism I gave that you quoted in your response to me:
That was referring back to when you argued that we could define atheism in terms of the supernatural.

he problem is that we can't define atheism by theism if we don't have a definition for theism (even if it is "anybody who says they are one). You apparently thought that I was suggesting one, although I specifically stated I was defining atheism:
You were using the term "theist" in a contradictory way. If the term "theist" refers to a person who believes in something that meets some objective standard for "god" and not merely belief in something that the believer considers to be god, then if you unpack your last sentence ("whatever things that theists call gods atheists either don't believe exists or isn't a god."), it refers to a theist who believes in something that isn't a god. Unless we're defining "theism" and "atheism" in terms of what the person themselves considers to be god (i.e. what I've been arguing for and you've been arguing against), then you might as well have been talking about square circles.

In other words, if a theist says the sun is a god, an atheist can believe in the sun because they don't believe that's what "the concept refers to".
Which would imply that the atheist wouldn't think that the theist is a theist.

The point was never to define self-described theists as non-theists, but you continually acted like I was claiming this. I wasn't. Quite the opposite.
I know. While this was an implication of your argument, that didn't seem to be your intent. I was pointing out that you're making special definitions of terms that don't match how they're actually used at all. Look at your own posts: you had to talk about theists that don't believe in gods just to make your point. You couldn't even use the terms consistently with how you were arguing they should be used.

My argument wasn't against the above it required the above to be true. If we accept that theists are theists because they say so, then atheists can believe anything (even believe in god) if they don't use the word "theist" to describe themselves. The point was never to argue anything about who we can/can't call theists, but what we can say of atheists if we BOTH define atheist only as not theists AND require that the self-applied label of theist is what makes one a theist. The point was that we shouldn't define atheist as "not theist" and I was explaining why, not that we should call polytheists "not theists".
I know that wasn't your point. I was showing how your approach for the term "atheist" had wider implications that you hadn't considered.

Instead of ever having these points addressed, you continually talked about how theists are defined and insulting me in the process:


As I didn't do any google searches, didn't mention any, and never even hinted that such searches are authoritative as there is no way they could be, how is this not an insult?
You used a Google tool to do a search, didn't you? That's all I was referring to.

I don't want you too. Your responses never addressed any of my points as you continually misunderstood what I was trying to say.
I was staying relevant; you weren't. I understood your arguments, but stuck to the point.

Once again you ignore what I say in order to make an argument that has nothing to do with mine. I'm talking about the ways in which we can show that "non-belief" in adults is the same as belief, requires belief, and differs from ignorance of the type a baby has.
And I'm going to continue ignoring this until you explain how it could possibly be relevant. Neuroscience is not linguistics.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Ok, fine. Ignoring for the moment how we determine what a theist is other than belief in god (whatever that may mean and however many they may believe in), if an atheist is anyone who isn't a isn't a theist, what does this definition entail?
That is, we'll assume that an atheist is someone who isn't a theist. Then:

1) If a person believes god exists, then they are a theist| Definition

2) If a person is not a theist, then they are an atheist |Definition

3) If a person believes god does not exist, then they are not a theist | True by modus tollens given 1)

4) If person is an atheist, they believe god does not exists | True by 2) and 3)


So, defining an atheist only as not a theist, we end up with a belief claim an atheist necessarily must make of god. As I have said so often, asserting that atheism isn't theism simply means that atheism is defined by the definition of theism.

4) does not actually follow from 2) and 3). For it to be valid, it would have to be re-stated like this:

4) If a person is an atheist, they do not believe god exists.

A Venn diagram is the best way to see why:


Your argument can be re-phrased like this:

1) If a person is in region 'A', they are a theist.

2) If a person is not in region 'A', they are an atheist.

3) If a person is in region 'B', then they are not in region 'A'.

4) If a person is not in region 'A', they are in region 'B'.

Step 4 is wrong. If a person is not in region 'A', they are either in region 'B' or region 'C'.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Well, OK. But neither do the comatose, the Alzheimer's, the sleeping, the surgery patients, etc...

Not sure, we may very well have a different set of beliefs at the subconscious level. I can only account for what I am consciously aware of and I have to remember it to boot.
I think we should just leave it up to God to sort the theists from the atheists, just as He sorts the fake Christians from the actual, true Christians.
Hopefully god would be worried about more important matters than how high we score on a theology exam.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am not sure if I can use a true formal proof that would be understandable to anybody, but I can at least do a better informal one which, I think would highlight structural differences that matter more than the one you correctly noted. So I think I'll try one or two that include at least some formal representation to highlight the importance of structure.

I was going through the list of algebras that might work either for a formal proof or, if this was too complex, one that could had an intuitive structure for a pseudo-formulation, and I started sketching out some possibilities. A central issue is that even though the study of modality (including epistemic) in linguistics started with logic and the philosophy of logic, systems were designed not to compare beliefs but to express them. That is, possible world semantics and modal logics tend to address beliefs as possibilities like "it is possible that god exists" vs. "necessarily god exists". I realized, though, that while this isn't so helpful for what I was after, it's even better.


The logics described above typically do not simply add the two modal operators ( the symbol □ indicating and ◊ possibility). They will use these in conjunction with frames, domains, relations, worlds, etc. However, what is useful is how to express certainty and possibility in such systems.

The view expressed here is that atheists neither believe nor disbelieve in god(s). Moreover, an atheist is defined entirely by not being a theist.

Presumably, if a theist is anything, a theist must believe that some concept of god has a reality or existence outside of that theist's mind.

A fairly intuitive way to extend logics to include beliefs is to think of an infinite set of world s.t. (such that) for any situation that is possible there is a world in which it is true. By possible, I refer to limits such as a world in which impossibilities can exist that impossible the way that something being both true & false at the same time is impossible. Symbolically, ~◊( A & ~ A), must be true. I do not mean that ambiguous concepts or things that seem impossible can't exist. Logical impossibilities, like "both A & ~A can be true", we can interpret precisely and thus understand the impossibility precisely.

What doxastic logics, possible world semantics, modal logics, etc., and the combinations thereof have in common is that beliefs are taken to relate to something (a truthmaker, a token, it doesn't really matter here) that is what makes the belief true or false. So, for example, a theist would say the proposition "god exists" is necessarily true: it is true in all possible worlds. That's because for any proposition, there is that relation (that truthmaker thing) which makes the proposition true in some possible world (with exception noted above). By saying god actually exists, the theist means there is no possibility that god doesn't exist, and therefore no possible world for which the proposition "god exists" is false.

I'm not saying, of course, that this means god exists. That the proposition "god exists" is true in all possible worlds is not true for every set of all possible worlds. It is simply the way that a theist would express the existence of god(s). An agnostic, on the other hand, describes the proposition "god exists" differently. The agnostic describes a different set of all possible worlds for which the proposition "god exists" is made false in some possible worlds and true in others.

Now for the interesting part. For the atheist (strong, positive, etc.) who believes god doesn't exist, we just use the opposite of what the theist expresses: it is necessarily true that for all possible worlds the proposition "god exists" is false. No problem.

But now there is nothing left. Given the proposition "god exists", we've exhausted all the ways in which the truth of this statement could be evaluated. Possible worlds are indeed designed to consist even of those things we can't conceive of, are hard to define, etc. Yet we have nothing that enables us to speak of an atheist who neither believes nor disbelieves (except in the way an agnostic does).

Nor do we escape this through other ways of extending logic to cover predicates like "believe". Belief ascriptions, for example, suffer from a similar problem here as in classical logic. For they are ways in which beliefs are described, a function or relation B with arguments B(x, p, m, t) that tell us x believes the proposition p as presented in mode m at time t (not all beliefs require the fourth argument). However, such a function is, as in classical logic, binary. There is no possible difference between "not believe A" and "believe not A". Models, worlds, frames, etc., may differ in semantics and the same even one of them, like worlds, may differ in one system compared to another. We can even go further and incorporate fuzzy logic, but even if we allow our membership function to assign a truth value to the proposition "god exists" to the unaccountably infinite set [0,1], 0 would be a certainty that god doesn't exist and anything else would represent a possibility.

Surprisingly, then, the issue at the moment isn't which system to use or how, in that system, to represent proofs that relate the definition of theists to what that entails for atheists. It is that despite the diversity of systems, and the diversity of ways belief can be expressed about a diverse set (including things like "lsihler"), the only way evaluate the proposition "god exists" is as being true, some form of possibly true, or false. There are literally, in this case, infinitely many "third ways" that aren't possible in classical logic, yet still not believing god exists entails believing that god does not exist or that it is possible god exists.
 
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Sonofason

Well-Known Member
There is a difference between "finding a definition" and actually understanding what agnosticism is. Read a thorough explanation of what agnosticism is and not just a one line definition. Start with Wikipedia.

Well, I've done that. And for my purposes, I reject Wikipedia's definition. I, for one, realize that words can have more than one meaning. I am perfectly content with the definition that I provided. Yes it is one little definition, but it is the one little definition that fits my understanding and therefore my intended meaning of the word. The fact that other definitions exist, that might also be true within certain intended contexts, the definition that I have chosen fits the context in which I intend the word to be understood.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
I was going through the list of algebras that might work either for a formal proof or, if this was too complex, one that could had an intuitive structure for a pseudo-formulation, and I started sketching out some possibilities. A central issue is that even though the study of modality (including epistemic) in linguistics started with logic and the philosophy of logic, systems were designed not to compare beliefs but to express them. That is, possible world semantics and modal logics tend to address beliefs as possibilities like "it is possible that god exists" vs. "necessarily god exists". I realized, though, that while this isn't so helpful for what I was after, it's even better.


The logics described above typically do not simply add the two modal operators ( the symbol □ indicating and ◊ possibility). They will use these in conjunction with frames, domains, relations, worlds, etc. However, what is useful is how to express certainty and possibility in such systems.

The view expressed here is that atheists neither believe nor disbelieve in god(s). Moreover, an atheist is defined entirely by not being a theist.

Presumably, if a theist is anything, a theist must believe that some concept of god has a reality or existence outside of that theists mind.

A fairly intuitive way to extend logics to include beliefs is to think of an infinite set of world s.t. (such that) for any situation that is possible there is a world in which it is true. By possible, I mean there can be no world in which things can be both true & false at the same time. Symbolically, ~◊( A & ~ A).

What doxastic logics, possible world semantics, modal logics, etc., and the combinations thereof have in common is that beliefs are taken to relate to something (a truthmaker, a token, it doesn't really matter) that is what makes the belief true or false. So, for example, a theist would say the proposition "god exists" is necessarily true, or it true in all possible worlds. That's because for any proposition there is that relation, that truthmaker, that makes the proposition true in at least a possible world (with exception as noted above). Because a theist is saying god actually exists, there is no possibility that god doesn't, and therefore no possible world for which the proposition is false.

I'm not saying, of course, that this means god exists. It is simply the way that a theist would express the existent of god(s). An agnostic, on the other hand, would disagree. For the agnostic, there are possible worlds for which the proposition "god exists" is made false.

Now for the interesting part. For the atheist who believes god doesn't exist, we just use the opposite of what the theist expresses: it is necessarily true that for all possible worlds the proposition "god exists" is false. No problem.

But now there is nothing left. Given the proposition "god exists", we've exhausted all the ways in which the truth of this statement could be evaluated. Possible worlds are indeed designed to consist even of those things we can't conceive of, are hard to define, etc.

Nor do we escape this through other ways of extending logic to cover predicates like "believe". Belief ascriptions, for example, suffer from a similar problem here as in classical logic. For they are ways in which beliefs are described, a function or relation B with arguments B(x, p, m, t) that tell us x believes the proposition p as presented in mode m at time t (not all beliefs require the fourth argument). However, such a function is, as in classical logic, binary. There is no possible difference between "not believe A" and "believe not A". Models, worlds, frames, etc., may differ in semantics and the same even one of them, like worlds, may differ in one system compared to another. We can even go further and incorporate fuzzy logic, but even if we allow our membership function to assign a truth value to the proposition "god exists" to the unaccountably infinite set [0,1], 0 would be a certainty that god doesn't exist and anything else would represent a possibility.

Surprisingly, then, the issue at the moment isn't which system to use or how, in that system, to represent proofs that relate the definition of theists to what that entails for atheists, it is that despite the diversity of systems and the diversity of ways belief can be expressed about a diverse set (including things like "lsihler"), the only way evaluate the proposition "god exists" is truth, some form of possibly true, or false. There are literally, in this case, infinitely many "third ways" that aren't possible in classical logic, yet still not believing god exists entails believing that god does not exist or that it is possible god exists.
I like it. Frubals
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
4) does not actually follow from 2) and 3).

For it to be valid, it would have to be re-stated like this:

4) If a person is an atheist, they do not believe god exists.


In classical logic, there is no distinction between the two. If we represent belief as a two-place predicate, e.g,. Bxy = x believes y, then we cannot negate y. That's why, as I said when you first mentioned logic, that truly formal classical logics are impossible here. I wasted some time thinking about how I formulate a proof that, even if it was still informal, was at least structurally invariant to the formal representation, when I realized something. My last post addresses this.

A Venn diagram is the best way to see why:

Your argument can be re-phrased like this:

It can't. Because my pseudo-proof cannot be formulated in any standard predicate calculi without
1) having the allowing for the representation of paradoxes
and/or
2) being ambiguous.

No matter how one formulates a proof in a standard formal logic in which the predicate "believes" or a equivalent appears, there is only one way to negate it.

Other logics, however, do not have this property. They work by eliminating the mental state predicate and replacing it with ways in which different beliefs about all manner of things can be expressed in different ways regarding the same proposition. However, each an everyone require an assignment or membership function of truth to the any proposition. Different system allow different ranges, different implication rules or types, additional operators, etc., but a proposition has a truth value in all of them, and whether we describe an atheist's evaluation in terms of possible worlds or fuzzy set logics or whatever system designed to deal with beliefs or predicates like "believe", to not believe god exist either means that there is a possibility god exists or that god does not exist.

I'm actually surprised this didn't hit me earlier, as it is what I was saying about knowing concepts necessarily entailing beliefs even if we ignore neurobiology. From dynamic epistemic logics for robots and machine learning to possible worlds, there is always ways in which truth-bearing proposition are evaluated in terms of their truth, because that's the only thing we are capable of doing. For any concept in any mind, it is some entity, property, SoA, etc., to which the conceptualizer relates to the external world/reality, believes possible to relate to it, or does not believe possible to. No matter how fancy one gets with the ways one can represent "not believe", either it means false or possible.

1) If a person is in region 'A', they are a theist.

2) If a person is not in region 'A', they are an atheist.

3) If a person is in region 'B', then they are not in region 'A'.

4) If a person is not in region 'A', they are in region 'B'.


The problem with my pseudo-proof, which was the reason I didn't give a formal version when you asked for it, is that I can't represent "x doesn't believe god exists" as somehow different from "believes god doesn't exist". That problem exists for your chart as well. However, for logics in which we can express differences between "not believe" and "believe not", the third section (the neither believe nor disbelieve one) means "it is possible god exists".

Step 4 is wrong

It isn't wrong, it's ambiguous. It has to be in classical logic. But the third part of your graph has no meaning in classical logic. non tertium datur
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure that definitions do not exist apart from human minds.

We create words, inside our heads. That's my view of it, anyway.

One can perhaps think he creates a word in his head, but in my opinion, it is not a word until someone else agrees with him that it is indeed a word. But then, I accept the following definition of the word "word", which is apparently an agreed upon definition for the word. According to this definition, a word is, " a speech sound or series of speech sounds that symbolizes and communicates a meaning."

If a speech sound is thought of, but fails to communicate meaning, then it is not a word at all.

sproigntz misfgo blachimakong. You see, I just thought of these speech sounds. Are they words?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
In this case, the label "atheist" refers to the absence of a "mental state", theism. It doesn't matter whether it is absent in an "infant" way or an "adult" way; in either case, the question is whether it's absent, not what else is there.
And why is that meaningful?

People who don't believe in god or gods have something to talk about--they can explain what it is about 'gods' and arguments for gods that they don't believe, why it makes no sense; they can flock together in conventions and discuss how they've been persecuted by 'beleivers' for saying there is no 'god.' They've thought about it, and come to a rational decision. Disbelieving in god, they have some impact on the world, and some reason for applying a label to themselves.

What is meaningful about calling the person on a remote island who has never heard of 'god' an atheist?
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
I am going to assume you've never taken formal logic so we'll settle for an informal derivation using your definitions:

1) If a person is a theist, then they believe god exists | Definition

2) If a person is an atheist, then they are not a theist |Definition

3) If a person does not believe god exists, then they are not a theist | True by modus tollendo tollens given 1)

4) If person does not believe god exists, they are an atheist | True by 2) and 3)


When you simply repeat definitions without taking into account particular nuances of these, you can easily find yourself contradicting your own views.

The problem here is that we are talking about and trying to describe belief systems, not gods.
#1) is true - If a person is a theist, then he believes that a god exists.
#2) is a half truth - If a person is an atheist, then he is not a theist
This is only half true, because you are not fully describing what it is to not be a theist. If a person is not a theist, then he believes that a god does not exist. If the theist believes that a god does exist, the atheist believes that a god does not exist.

The atheist is not without belief, he most certainly has a belief. His belief is that no god exists.

#3) is a half truth - If a person does not believe god exists, then they are not a theist.
This is only half true, because you are once again failing to address the appropriate subject of belief. It is not that an atheist does not believe god exists. He believes that a god does not exist. The atheist has belief. The belief the atheist has is that there is no god.

4) If person does not believe god exists, they are an atheist
Again, you fall into the same fallacy as you have in numbers 2 & 3. Atheist have a belief. If a person believes that no god exists, then they are an atheist.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
1) If a person believes god exists, then they are a theist| Definition

2) If a person is not a theist, then they are an atheist |Definition

3) If a person does not believe god exist, then they are not a theist | True by modus tollendo tollens given 1)

4) If person is an atheist, they do not believe god exists | True by 2) and 3)

I will restate these as they ought to be stated.

1) If a person believes god exists, then he is a theist.

2) If a person is not a theist, then he might be an atheist. He also might be agnostic. He also might be dead, in which case he would be classified as either agnostic, or none of the above.

3) If a person does not believe that a god exist, then he is not a theist. He also could be agnostic, or none of the above

4) If a person is an atheist, then he believes that no god exists.
 
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Sonofason

Well-Known Member
Nope. In the island example the person could only be a weak atheist because to be a strong atheist and disbelieve in gods he must have heard about them.

1. Theist (belief in gods)
2. Weak atheist (not a theist) (no belief in gods, no disbelief in gods)
3. Strong atheist (not a theist) (no belief in gods, disbelief in gods)

I agree with your understanding here, with regard to weak and strong atheism, but I still don't see why such a determination is necessary. Why are weak atheists not called agnostic? Can you define agnostic according to your own perception of the word. Please do not refer me to Wikipedia, just give my your understanding of what it is to be agnostic.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I agree with your understanding here, with regard to weak and strong atheism, but I still don't see why such a determination is necessary. Why are weak atheists not called agnostic? Can you define agnostic according to your own perception of the word. Please do not refer me to Wikipedia, just give my your understanding of what it is to be agnostic.


He has his terminology wrong.

The correct word is implicit atheism, one who doesn't know about god and has made no conscious decision to reject a god.

explicit atheism, one makes a conscious decision to reject belief.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
What is meaningful about calling the person on a remote island who has never heard of 'god' an atheist?

Such a person certainly hasn t heard the good news and is in need of salvation! You call them atheist just for good measure.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
I'll pose this question again, as it was never addressed by anyone: How is a newborn infant's atheism meaningfully different from a rock's atheism?

Atheism is a belief.
As far as I can tell, rocks don't have beliefs. If this is true, rocks can't be atheists. Newborns, certainly might have beliefs. Being capable of having beliefs is significantly different than being incapable of having beliefs.
 
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