That particular magic occurs, and the world "works."
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Are people born inherently atheist?
- Thread starter eggyolk
- Start date
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
And you haven't provided any evidence to the contrary.
Babies feel fear. There is clue number one for potential beliefs.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
That's nice. Again, if you have come across any studies which provide conclusive evidence that human newborns are cognitively developed and conscious enough to form and hold beliefs, then please provide links and I'd be more than happy to read them. Otherwise, your non-sequiturs are just wasting my time.
When babies cry in anger or fear they keep their eyes open but closed when they are in pain.
Fear, anger or pain: Why do babies cry?
Now I'm all ears if you have any evidence that babies don't feel emotions.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Again, please stop wasting my time with non-sequiturs and strawmen.
Your simply ignoring any evidence I've shown. I've presented evidence of the possible mind set of a baby since that is what we are trying to figure out. Just asserting that babies are incapable isn't much of an argument. We have to look at their emotional and intelligence levels of maturity to determine if they are holding any sort of beliefs so that is where I'm looking.
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
Maybe all the participants in this thread would be willing to post their definitions.
Here's mine: An atheist is a person who calls himself an atheist and seems to wear the label sincerely. He might also be a theist, simultaneously -- along with being an agnostic, a hard atheist, soft atheist, Hindu, Jew, etc. There are also people who deny being atheists, but whom I consider to be atheists nonetheless.
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
What's your definition of 'belief'?
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
That's nice. I don't really think I know how to meaningfully converse with someone who doesn't know the difference between an emotion and a belief, though. Let me know if you eventually come across any studies of the type I outlined.
I used fear because that emotion entails believing something might occur that is unwanted.
Are not capable of holding, or merely do not hold? It doesn't take that long before a baby can demonstrably act on a belief, so it stands to reason that the capacity was there earlier. A baby that's old enough to play "peek-a-boo" apparently has beliefs, since his or her consternation when the adult is out of sight suggests the baby believes the adult isn't there any more.
"That baby is not apolitical."
Is that actually how the term is used, or do people actually use it to refer to "people" rather than "someone or something, which is capable of holding beliefs?"
Also, as I pointed out earlier, your definition still doesn't exclude babies. Newborns, maybe, but slightly older babies can still not only hold beliefs but act in ways that demonstrate what those beliefs are even before they're verbal.
I'd say that when a baby demonstrates fear, this is evidence that it believes it's in danger.
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
I ask you again: Are you willing to post your own definition of 'belief'?
What is a belief, exactly?
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
And, as I requested from idav, if you have links to any studies which provide conclusive evidence that newborn infants are cognitively developed and conscious enough to form and hold beliefs, I'd be happy to read them. And again, the OP is asking whether we are born atheists. When we are born, we are newborn infants. At whatever point the ability to hold beliefs forms, it isn't at birth, as far as I know - particularly the ability to hold complex conceptual beliefs.
Yes, it would be meaningless to define a newborn as apolitical, since they are not capable of holding a belief or opinion about politics.
We apply the categorization of belief/non-belief to humans not because they are human, but because they are capable of holding beliefs. Newborn infants do not meet this criteria. Just as rocks and squirrels don't.
Yes, and the question is whether we are born atheists.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
So when a squirrel demonstrates fear, this is evidence that it believes it's in danger? By extension, squirrels are also atheists, then.
A personal truth. It is subjective but what you hold to be true.
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
So you think a baby can 'hold it to be true' that God exists? (Or doesn't exist?)
How about elephants? Can they hold it to be true that God exists?
Can as in able to, I believe so.
If they can gather that their reality is true then they are on their way.
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
So you think of elephants as being divisible into atheistic herds and theistic herds?
And babies in a hospital maternity ward -- atheist babies and theistic babies?
I dunno. It almost seems to me that your worldview is foreign to mine.