Are people really going to get help paying for their Health Insurance?

[Dirty Penguin]

Many things to respond to, but not much new anyway.
I'll be on the road for a few days, so expect little posting.

Safe travels.....:yes:

 

[Mr Spinkles]

There is absolutely nothing in the ACA that gives the president the power to force insurance companies to continue to offer plans that they decide to cut, and it was always known that only non-compliant plans offered prior to 2011 would be "grandfathered in". Most of those plans disappeared, because insurers have been changing premiums and coverage significantly just about every year. Nothing in the ACA forces doctors to accept a given plan forever. That is voluntary, just as it is voluntary for doctors to accept Medicare and Medicaid patients.

We have been somewhat inundated with Obamacare "horror stories" just a month after the program got off to its rocky start. It is really too early to tell whether most of the generalizations being tossed about are true or false. There have been cases where the media reported horror stories that turned out to be false or not to report all of the facts. For example:

Another Obamacare horror story debunked. (The woman who is the subject of the story has still not gone to the California web site to verify whether she could get a cheaper plan, but she has found the time to complain to the news media and a talk show host.)

'I would jump at it' The media labeled her an Obamacare victim. Here's what she really thinks.

Under Health Care Act, Millions Eligible for Free Policies. (These are Bronze plans for individuals and families who are relatively poor but can't qualify for Medicaid. Silver plans with a small monthly premium are still a better bargain.)

Very informative article, thanks. What a breath of fresh air to see actual journalism.

 

[esmith]

Well said.

Also, let's apply what some are saying here to another area: military spending. When the Iraq War was voted on, I was opposed, so was I able to deduct that cost on my taxes? No. Can I pick and choose which weapons I might not agree with and have that portion deducted on my taxes? No. If I have no children in school, can I get rid of those taxes on me? No.

If you take a close look at Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution it says that the Federal Government is required to equip and maintain the military. You do not have a choice to pay taxes; either pay them if you owe them or be charged with a criminal act(thus you have no right to decide how the government spends the taxes collected). Therefor you argument about military spending is invalid. Do you see anywhere in the Constitution that says the Government has to provide for health care. And I will not agree with those that say that the "Provide for the General Welfare" means health care. If you think so, I suggest you read the following:
General Welfare legal definition of General Welfare. General Welfare synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.
Health Care: Constitutional Rights and Legislative Powers

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Many things to respond to, but not much new anyway.
I'll be on the road for a few days, so expect little posting.

Safe travels. Remember that both you AND the Mrs. should be getting regular colonoscopies, you may as well get that out of the way while you're out and about.

 

[metis]

If you take a close look at Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution it says that the Federal Government is required to equip and maintain the military. You do not have a choice to pay taxes; either pay them if you owe them or be charged with a criminal act(thus you have no right to decide how the government spends the taxes collected). Therefor you argument about military spending is invalid. Do you see anywhere in the Constitution that says the Government has to provide for health care. And I will not agree with those that say that the "Provide for the General Welfare" means health care. If you think so, I suggest you read the following: ...

Ah c'mon, this is not the issue and you should know that. What was and is my point is that most taxes collected we do not have the choice to pick and choose which items we may only want to pay for. The issue as to the constitutionality of either was not the issue being discussed.

 

[dust1n]

Hoping that nonlinear relationships between several variables will end up increasing output in the long-run all other things being equal isn't "about efficiency." Increasing productivity by increasing positive affect through things like job satisfaction is difficult enough even to study, let alone produce at the local level (by companies themselves) let alone hope to accomplish through federal healthcare changes.

Why would that be difficult to study? There are only two things to account for.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Let's see a show of hands: how many critics of Obamacare here will concede that the two main claims in the OP, that (1) the subsidies won't help anyone until 2015 and that (2) people who are unable to pay for insurance will face a tax penalty as well, have been debunked?

I'm not asking you to say you support Obamacare I'm just curious to know if you will concede the facts here. I thought I took care of it in posts #5 and #8.

 

[esmith]

Let's see a show of hands: how many critics of Obamacare here will concede that the two main claims in the OP, that (1) the subsidies won't help anyone until 2015 and that (2) people who are unable to pay for insurance will face a tax penalty as well, have been debunked?

I'm not asking you to say you support Obamacare I'm just curious to know if you will concede the facts here. I thought I took care of it in posts #5 and #8.

There has been a lot of misinformation that has been and continues to be put out by those on both sides of the issue that either were misleading or as Churchill famously put it a "terminological inexactitude". And per your specifics both of them are not accurate.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

There has been a lot of misinformation that has been and continues to be put out by those on both sides of the issue that either were misleading or as Churchill famously put it a "terminological inexactitude". And per your specifics both of them are not accurate.

Oh this is getting good.....opcorn:

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Let's see a show of hands: how many critics of Obamacare here will concede that the two main claims in the OP, that (1) the subsidies won't help anyone until 2015 and that (2) people who are unable to pay for insurance will face a tax penalty as well, have been debunked?

I'm not asking you to say you support Obamacare I'm just curious to know if you will concede the facts here. I thought I took care of it in posts #5 and #8.

There has been a lot of misinformation that has been and continues to be put out by those on both sides of the issue that either were misleading or as Churchill famously put it a "terminological inexactitude". And per your specifics both of them are not accurate.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that what is claimed in the OP is indeed accurate?

 

[esmith]

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that what is claimed in the OP is indeed accurate?

Well let see I can rephrase what I thought I meant. Items #1& #2 are not valid statements. Tax credits for insurance will be available in 2014, and the only time you have to pay a tax penalty is if you do not have insurance. If your income is low enough you will qualify for Medicaid; However, if you do not qualify for Medicaid and the tax credit does not completely pay for the insurance (insuree owes) and you fail to get insurance you are subject to a tax penalty. Does that clear it up?

 

[Reverend Rick]

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that what is claimed in the OP is indeed accurate?

I would say it is as accurate as what the President has been saying.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I would say it is as accurate as what the President has been saying.

Except that he was accurate that if you like your plan you could keep it. It's certainly true of those in employer based plans. And for the 5% in the open market, many with junk or limited coverage plans, many are finding good deals on their state run exchange as well as the federal exchange. As many of us here been reporting...the decision to cancel a plan is solely up to the insurer. ....

 

[esmith]

Except that he was accurate that if you like your plan you could keep it. It's certainly true of those in employer based plans. And for the 5% in the open market, many with junk or limited coverage plans, many are finding good deals on their state run exchange as well as the federal exchange. As many of us here been reporting...the decision to cancel a plan is solely up to the insurer. ....

Again that is your opinion on what is a good health plan or a bad health plan. What is good for one person or family may not be good for another. And I don't care how you spin it Obama lied when he said "if you like your health plan you can keep it PERIOD" because as of now if it does not meet ACA minimums you can't. He was talking to every American that had a health care plan. So get over it and admit he lied. He even is trying to backtrack what he lied about. See the following:

President Barack Obama lied about health care - ktar.com

After taking considerable heat Obama tried to backtrack saying, "Now, if you have or had one of these plans before the Affordable Care Act came into law and you really liked that plan, what we said was you can keep it if it hasn't changed since the law passed."
No. That's not what you said dozens of times to the American people. Also, look at this screenshot from the White House's website.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

After taking considerable heat Obama tried to backtrack saying, "Now, if you have or had one of these plans before the Affordable Care Act came into law and you really liked that plan, what we said was you can keep it if it hasn't changed since the law passed."

It's true what he said originally was not quite accurate. But this quote is accurate -- if a plan didn't change since the law passed it was grandfathered, this was not some secret part of the ACA legislation it was well known as the article indicates.

 

[esmith]

It's true what he said originally was not quite accurate. But this quote is accurate -- if a plan didn't change since the law passed it was grandfathered, this was not some secret part of the ACA legislation it was well known as the article indicates.

But that is not what Obama said. So, let me ask you a couple of simple questions
1. Was he lying and knew it
2. Was he in the dark and didn't know what he was talking about

Your choice but both of them make Obama look bad.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Again that is your opinion on what is a good health plan or a bad health plan.

Actually that's fact as the data shows. I recently posted a link to the Consumer Reports article (one of many) that expose these plans. Additionally when these stories of people losing their insurance are reported and regurgitated here on RF much is left out. For the most part you won't get a lot of detail as to what their current plans look like which makes it difficult to compare plans on the exchange. And for the ones that do reveal the details...we inevitably discover they are under insured if they had to use their insurance extensively. We even find that many receive their letter and are comparing their current rates, deductible, and out of pocket expense with the details of the new plan their provider is presenting them. We even see that many don't even go onto their state exchange or the federal exchange (like I did) to see how their current plan or their new plan offered by the insurer stacks up against those on the exchange...and for many that do they compare a platinum plan to a plan they have that is at best a bronze/silver plan. The media has been guilty of that part as well. I compared plans on the exchange to my plan. Mine is employer based and the three plans that match mine were "Gold" plans...even so...two of the gold plan's premiums were lower than what I put out.

What is good for one person or family may not be good for another.

True....

And I don't care how you spin it Obama lied when he said "if you like your health plan you can keep it PERIOD" because as of now if it does not meet ACA minimums you can't.

Actually he didn't. I understand this is the GOPTP's new bone to chew on but it is quite clear that when he expressed that and what the law says is true. It was/is the insurance company that has decided to no longer carry those plans. This is what insurance companies have always done...even before the ACA. It's called "Churn"...

He was talking to every American that had a health care plan. So get over it and admit he lied. He even is trying to backtrack what he lied about. See the following:

Plans were/ARE grandfathered in. If the insurance company makes significant changes to a plan (and there is a guideline as to what those changers are)...then that plan is no longer valid under the ACA guidelines. If an insure decides NOT to make any changes or the changes they make aren't significant then that plan will remain grandfathered in which means the customer could keep their plan.

Amendment to Regulation on ?Grandfathered? Health Plans under the Affordable Care Act - Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services

On June 17, 2010, the Departments of Health and Human Services, Labor, and the Treasury (the Departments) issued the “grandfather” regulation which, by addressing how health plans can retain a “grandfathered” exemption from certain new requirements, helps protect Americans’ ability to keep their current plan if they like it. At the same time, Americans in grandfathered plans will receive many of the added benefits that the new law provides. The regulation also minimizes market disruption and helps put us on a path toward the competitive, patient-centered market of the future.

The grandfather regulation includes a number of rules for determining when changes to a health plan cause the plan to lose its grandfathered status. For example, plans could lose their grandfathered status if they choose to make certain significant changes that reduce benefits or increase costs to consumers. This amendment modifies one aspect of the original regulation.



Previously, one of the ways an employer group health plan could lose its grandfathered status was if the employer changed issuers – switching from one insurance company to another. The original regulation only allowed self-funded plans to change third-party administrators without necessarily losing their grandfathered plan status. Today’s amendment allows all group health plans to switch insurance companies and shop for the same coverage at a lower cost while maintaining their grandfathered status, so long as the structure of the coverage doesn’t violate one of the other rules for maintaining grandfathered plan status..

After taking considerable heat Obama tried to backtrack saying, "Now, if you have or had one of these plans before the Affordable Care Act came into law and you really liked that plan, what we said was you can keep it if it hasn't changed since the law passed."

And it's still true. If your insurance company doesn't change the plan in any significant way you'll remain grandfathered in on your plan.

No. That's not what you said dozens of times to the American people. Also, look at this screenshot from the White House's website.

He's still correct....but hey...it's really difficult to get people like you to understand how the insurance business works. You don't have that issue under TriCare. Even BEFORE the ACA there was nothing stopping an insurer from dropping you or dropping you and presenting you with a policy way more than what you were originally paying.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

But that is not what Obama said. So, let me ask you a couple of simple questions
1. Was he lying and knew it
2. Was he in the dark and didn't know what he was talking about

Your choice but both of them make Obama look bad.

He was telly the truth and knew exactly what he was talking about. You only hear what you want an no amount of sound explanation of the law will convince you otherwise....

 

[esmith]

He was telly the truth and knew exactly what he was talking about. You only hear what you want an no amount of sound explanation of the law will convince you otherwise....

So you say. What say you about the following?

President Obama Continues Questionable
From above link

“Let me be exactly clear about what health care reform means to you,” the president told residents of the Garden State. “First of all, if you’ve got health insurance, you like your doctors, you like your plan, you can keep your doctor, you can keep your plan. Nobody is talking about taking that away from you.””

Or a collage of his lies.
Video: Obama Saying You Can Keep Your Plan -- Daily Intelligencer


So, tell me is he lying or not, now I mean word for word not what you think he meant or what he thought he meant.

 

[McBell]

Your choice but both of them make Obama look bad.

Don't expect any else from you.