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Are people who claim to know God liars?

What do you think of people who claim knowledge of God

  • They are liars

    Votes: 5 7.8%
  • They are self deluded

    Votes: 17 26.6%
  • Of course we have knowledge of God

    Votes: 23 35.9%
  • Other, I suppose in case someone feels there's a better position to take.

    Votes: 19 29.7%

  • Total voters
    64

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Some more than others.

How do you go about validating that?

Every pursuit is either selfish or a service to others.

I'll stick with selfish. Usually if your performing some kind of service to someone else, your expecting something in return.

Are you certain that you're gonna make it through tomorrow?

No, but I think I am better equipped to handle whatever situation comes up if I possess knowledge of what reliable works.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Not an issue for me in as much as the Holy Spirit does want everyone to know truth and He is there to help us to discern whether the teacher is spewing religion or sharing truth:

John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.

He isn't trying to withhold truth, He is trying to get us to know truth.

The problem I'm seeing is folks claiming to have guidance of the Holy Spirit providing conflicting messages. They all seem equally certain of their guidance. You'd think that if relying on the same source, they have the same message.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The problem I'm seeing is folks claiming to have guidance of the Holy Spirit providing conflicting messages. They all seem equally certain of their guidance. You'd think that if relying on the same source, they have the same message.
That is so true.

What comes to our brain from the Holy Spirit is pure... when it hits the human brain, it can be tainted. There is certainly much written in scripture to show this reality.

Thus.... "let every prophecy be judged by two"

We have religious thinking that can twist it, personal bias and even personal gain (saying I've have a message from God when you didn't).

That is why, ultimately, you have to be at peace with what is said for you are the captain of your own salvation.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Maybe there is no why, just how.
There is a why, now, because we have developed the ability to ask. But I get your point: that perhaps there is no purpose to existence, or to the way existence, exists. And that is certainly a possibility. Though is would seem very unlikely of a universe within which everything is the specified result of a design process. It's difficult to imagine that all this complex and inter-related design would ultimately have no purpose.
I can create answers for both. The how, I expect science will be able to at some point validate.
I am far less optimistic about that than you are simply because, sooner or later, science would have to discover the origin of "energy", and of the limitations that control it's expression. And that's a mighty tough nut to crack open.
The why? If there isn't some way to validate that, does what we believe about the why even matter?
It matters because the rest of the question is "why" - are we here? The answer to which would define the ultimate purpose of our own existence. And thereby give us a unified and universal course into the future.
 

fire

Member
My own experience has revealed that people like yourself live for the opportunity to ravage, completely disinterested in any spiritual growth, more close minded than a brick, and bricks are impossible to teach.
There is no middle road in reality; there are those that seek after God, those that are opposed to God, and the ignorant... which category do you fall into?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
My own experience has revealed that people like yourself live for the opportunity to ravage, completely disinterested in any spiritual growth, more close minded than a brick, and bricks are impossible to teach.
There is no middle road in reality; there are those that seek after God, those that are opposed to God, and the ignorant... which category do you fall into?
I used to be a stone (or a brick if you so desire) but God gave me a heart of flesh.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
My own experience has revealed that people like yourself live for the opportunity to ravage, completely disinterested in any spiritual growth, more close minded than a brick, and bricks are impossible to teach.
There is no middle road in reality; there are those that seek after God, those that are opposed to God, and the ignorant... which category do you fall into?
If this twaddle is an example of so-called 'spiritual growth' one can readily understand why deeper thinkers are inclined to roll their eyes and burst out in fits of laughter.
 

Raja Singh Bedi

New Member
My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.

My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?

People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?

I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?

You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.

Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.
Hey man I'm a Sikh and what you're saying is true and we believe this as well and so did our gurus. It says exactly this in the first verse of Guru Granth Sahib. I reckon you download English pdf file of Guru Granth Sahib and read it. You'd be lucky to have a read is all I can say and luckier to practice it in real life. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!
 

maureen page

New Member
I wanted to contribute by sharing quotations from the Baha'i Faith which teaches that all knowledge of God comes thru His Manifestations (major prophets or Divine Teachers). Manifestations of God, like Adam, Moses, Christ, Mohamed, Buddha, Zoroaster, Krishna, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah revealed Holy Teachings, which were written down, or in Their own Hand revealed Books containing both social and spiritual Teachings, from which sprang major religions to benefit mankind. However, I found the following which adequately describes my vote:

"The essential unknowability of God—a teaching of the Baha’i Faith and several other religious traditions—means different things to different people.

Many people intuitively understand that the Source of this infinitely vast and varied phenomenon we call “existence” falls far beyond the reach of our finite minds.

Others find that idea hard to distinguish from agnosticism, and ask: How can we love and worship what we can’t comprehend?

Blaise Pascal wrote, “The heart has reasons that reason does not know.” The logic of how a finite mind could know an infinite God often isn’t the real question. One of the Baha’i daily prayers addresses God saying, “Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee”—to know God, to connect with the infinite, is one of the deep impulses of the human spirit.

In line with this, I would like to suggest that the Baha’i teachings allow us to know God very well—as long as we recognize and avoid a profound pitfall. The pitfall consists in confusing God’s eternal essence and God’s manifestation. In general—whether you believe in Jesus, Krishna, Baha’u’llah, or even the natural universe itself as a manifestation of God–then in effect we end up with two ‘Gods,’ a real, but unknowable God, and a lesser, substitute ‘God’ that we can know, at least to some extent.

Such a picture violates, in spirit if not in letter, the monotheism that really resides at the core of all faiths, including the Baha’i Faith.

Rather than trying to conceive of God as an “unknowable essence”–frustrating since it’s impossible to do anyway–let’s think about God as God—as One God, essentially unknowable but relatively knowable, meaning that we can know him in his relation to us.

This is not too different from how we get to know one another. We do not know other people’s minds directly, but through their actions and words. We do not even know ourselves directly—many psychologists believe that we know ourselves in terms of our relation to other people and our environment. If even our knowledge of ourselves is relative, it should be no surprise that our knowledge of God is relative too. This does not mean that it isn’t real.

In Some Answered Questions, Abdu’l-Baha (Son of Baha'u'llah) wrote:

As our knowledge of things, even of created and limited things, is knowledge of their qualities and not of their essence, how is it possible to comprehend in its essence the Divine Reality, which is unlimited? For the inner essence of anything is not comprehended, but only its qualities. For example, the inner essence of the sun is unknown, but is understood by its qualities, which are heat and light. The inner essence of man is unknown and not evident, but by its qualities it is characterized and known. Thus everything is known by its qualities and not by its essence. Although the mind encompasses all things, and the outward beings are comprehended by it, nevertheless these beings with regard to their essence are unknown; they are only known with regard to their qualities.

Then how can the eternal everlasting Lord, Who is held sanctified from comprehension and conception, be known by His essence? That is to say, as things can only be known by their qualities and not by their essence, it is certain that the Divine Reality is unknown with regard to its essence and is known with regard to its attributes. Some Answered Questions, pp. 220-221.

No coherent belief system can take an unknowable essence as its starting point and deduce anything about anything. Theologians always take the same starting point as the “plain believer”—the accepted fact of God. This mystery reason cannot penetrate, though the heart does recognize and respond.

Once we have accepted this mystery—that God, although infinite, unconditioned and utterly beyond our words and conceptions, does relate to us, and does so in infinitely many ways, as our Creator, Nourisher, Teacher, to name just a few attributes—then we can begin to build some inner personal concept of God. Baha’u’llah wrote:

The essence of belief in Divine unity consisteth in regarding Him Who is the Manifestation of God and Him Who is the invisible, the inaccessible, the unknowable Essence as one and the same. By this is meant that whatever pertaineth to the former, all His acts and doings, whatever He ordaineth or forbiddeth, should be considered, in all their aspects, and under all circumstances, and without any reservation, as identical with the Will of God Himself. – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 167.

The Qur’an warns those who “wish to separate God from His messengers…” – 4:150; and Jesus Christ taught, “I and my Father are one.” – John 10:30.

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah is the most recent manifestation of God for humanity. During his physical lifetime, Baha’u’llah left an indelible impression on everyone he met, and despite forty years of torture, exile and imprisonment, founded a global Faith which unites people from every corner of the planet. The roughly six million words of his revelation, a sign of his continuing presence in the world, give us more than enough insight into the character of the Creator to love, trust and worship God, even while we stand in awe of the divine infinity—the mystery of existence that our minds can never decipher, in this world or the next.

The opinions and views expressed in this article are those of the author only and do not necessarily reflect the opinion of BahaiTeachings.org or any institution of the Baha’i Faith."

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written by Dan Gebhardt teaches philosophy and world religions at the University of Nevada-Reno
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.

My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?

People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?

I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?

You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.

Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.

If all theists and Bible readers, etc. have a "certainty they don't possess", why are we the overwhelmingly majority now and in all history?

Why do we have a "certainty we don't possess" if we have a Bible with 2,000 pages written by 40 authors to tell us about God?

Why do we have a "certainty" we don't possess if God is as self-evident to believers as our own existence is self-evident to people?
 

tonemonkey

Member
My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.

My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?

People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?

I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?

You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.

Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.
I'm glad to read the last sentence in your post that you don't plan on going around calling believers liars. That implies that a] it's a fact that we can't know God, b] they know it's a fact, and c] that they are knowingly spreading falsehoods.

You are questioning believer's knowledge of God and what that's based on. My belief is based on what I believe to be God's revelation of Himself in the Bible. My understanding of God comes from what He's revealed about Himself in Scripture. I haven't decided what I think God is or ought to be - I'm reading what He says about Himself. God revealed Himself to many people throughout Scripture and wants to have a relationship with each of us. All of these ideas I get from reading the Bible.

We can have all the debates you want about the validity of Scripture, cherry picking, translation issues, etc. that you want, but I'm just letting you know where my belief stems from.

You say your belief is that we can't know God, but what is that based on? What do you have to back that up? What if you're wrong? What if it's possible to know God, and you're missing out? What if the Bible is true and we can have a relationship with God?

To put it a different way, why does it bother you when people say they know God? If it's not possible, then all you really should feel is pity for them, but you seem to be offended somehow.
 

Regiomontanus

Eastern Orthodox
Since we have a rational mind and live in a rational universe from which we arose through natural processes using some elementary material (mostly hydrogen) I think it safe to say that God is rational. Or at least that God wanted things this way in our universe.



My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.

My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?

People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?

I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?

You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.

Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.
 

Ordinary Bloke

New Member
My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.

My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?

People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?

I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?

You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.

Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.

Hi Nakosis, you are not alone to question what evidence there is for the beliefs in God that people have. This was certainly my position 5 years ago. The point I reached was to notice how many people had beliefs like this that I didn't and I started to wonder what they knew that I didn't. I mean there are just too many who seem too normal and sane to put it down just to some kind of insanity. So I started to look for evidence of what they were claiming. I mean, if there was only a small chance The Bible were all true, miracles, Heaven/Hell, Jesus etc that would be pretty big news right!? So the stance I took was a) if it's true I need to know more about it b) If it isn't true, once I start to examine it in more detail, it'll be obvious where they (Christians) are all going wrong.

So, I started to study as many aspects of Religion as I could find looking fundamentally at 3 kinds of evidence 1) Empircal evidence - science, known facts etc 2) Historical evidence - from both religious and non religious authors and 3) Experiential evidence - what it was like for those living a life of faith.....What I was looking for initially were the inconsistencies I thought would dis prove it all. I spent years immersed in books, youtube videos and stuff on the internet. What I found surprised me, the more I looked for inconsistency, all I found was an undeniable consistency across all the evidence supporting the Christian world view that convinced me personally that the Christian World view was correct and The Bible is the word of The one and only God who created the universe. After this I began to live as a Christian, to study the Bible, to pray everyday, like the many Christians I studied earlier but couldn't understand, I can confirm that it's been utterly life changing but also completely consistent with the factual stuff I'd learned earlier. Although above a) and b) where convincing, the experiencing of living as a Christian has completely overtaken any of the more 'rational' research.

"Wow, another nutter you may say" I guess my challenge to you is how much 'real' Scrutiny have you applied to it all? I heard the other day a well know preacher say that in his experience, it's not possible to read the New Testament twice (properly) and not be a Christian at the end of it....I challenge you, do your homework, read the New Testament twice, ask Jesus in prayer to reveal himself to you and put it to the test. I'd love to hear back afterwards.
 

stevevw

Member
I voted "They are self deluded".

They no more have knowledge of god's existence than a mentally ill person in the psyche ward has knowledge of the existence pertaining to the voice in his head.
Except a mentally ill person in a psyche shows the symptoms of their disorder in most other areas of their lives. Many who claim to know God are coherent, together, intelligent, in their lives. In fact many practcing scientists who many say is a area for which a belief in God would seem illogical and beyond verification past and present have claimed to know God despite this.
 

josh.steed

New Member
My criticism of Religion is the claim to know anything about God, at all.

My position is man knows nothing about God. I assume this is the default position of atheists. Am I wrong?

People who say God is whatever... loving, all powerful, Just, merciful, has a plan for all of us etc.
From whence does this knowledge about God come from?

I know nothing about God and neither do you. You can have faith that God possesses whatever properties you feel God should possess, but based on what? Imagining if a God did exist, this is what God ought to be like?

You have the Bible, Quran etc... So why do you feel these folks were in any better position than you to have knowledge about God.

Not that I'm going to go about calling believers liars. I just think they feel a certainty that they don't actually possess.


Hi - Atheists do not believe in the existence of God (the word translates from Greek as as 'no God')

You are Agnostic (which translates as 'no knowing')

universe (n.)
1580s, "the whole world, cosmos, the totality of existing things," from Old French univers (12c.), from Latin universum "all things, everybody, all people, the whole world," noun use of neuter of adjective universus "all together, all in one, whole, entire, relating to all," literally "turned into one," from unus"one" (from PIE root *oi-no- "one, unique") + versus, past participle of vertere "to turn, turn back, be turned; convert, transform, translate; be changed" (from PIE root *wer- (2) "to turn, bend").

To me the Universe itself (the totality of all things) is synonymous with God - so my God is as ineffable in totality as any one else's, yet partly knowable through it's many expressions.

This is an Immanent (all-pervading, omnipresent) and singular (monist) vision of the divine, which makes it fully compatible with all mystical and scientific paradigms.

If you do not agree in the existence of "all things" you are a a nihilist

Joshx
 

stevevw

Member
The way to know God is through Jesus. Jesus and his life are portrayed in the bible. In the bible Jesus is called Emmanuel, "God is with us" Matthew 1:23. John said that Jesus was God, “The Word [Jesus] was God” and “the Word became flesh” (John 1:1, 14). Jesus says that he and God are one (John 10:30) so he has the same nature as God. He was executed for making these claims and we have historical evidence that Jesus was a real person and he was sentenced to execution by pontius pilot. So when we look at the life and times of Jesus we can know God. A person will have to either called Jesus deluded as already implied in his assertions or call him a liar. But the fact is Jesus was real and it is claimed we can know God through Him.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Hi - Atheists do not believe in the existence of God (the word translates from Greek as as 'no God')

You are Agnostic (which translates as 'no knowing')

universe (n.)
1580s, "the whole world, cosmos, the totality of existing things," from Old French univers (12c.), from Latin universum "all things, everybody, all people, the whole world," noun use of neuter of adjective universus "all together, all in one, whole, entire, relating to all," literally "turned into one," from unus"one" (from PIE root *oi-no- "one, unique") + versus, past participle of vertere "to turn, turn back, be turned; convert, transform, translate; be changed" (from PIE root *wer- (2) "to turn, bend").

To me the Universe itself (the totality of all things) is synonymous with God - so my God is as ineffable in totality as any one else's, yet partly knowable through it's many expressions.

This is an Immanent (all-pervading, omnipresent) and singular (monist) vision of the divine, which makes it fully compatible with all mystical and scientific paradigms.

If you do not agree in the existence of "all things" you are a a nihilist

Joshx

You're completely free to define God however you want.

I could for example define God as a rock, there upon throwing God at my neighbor as a sign of God's wrath.

So I'm fine with you defining God as the entire universe as long as you are just as accepting of me defining God as a rock.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I voted "They are self deluded".

They no more have knowledge of god's existence than a mentally ill person in the psyche ward has knowledge of the existence pertaining to the voice in his head.

And if someone hears a voice inside their head and yet that person is entirely capable of being happy and also being a contributing member of society without the aid of a psyche ward?

Do you hear yourself thinking? Do you have internal dialogues in your mind? Do all those competing (schizophrenic?) voices belong to "you"? Prove that "you" exists as a mental construct.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Hi Nakosis, you are not alone to question what evidence there is for the beliefs in God that people have. This was certainly my position 5 years ago. The point I reached was to notice how many people had beliefs like this that I didn't and I started to wonder what they knew that I didn't. I mean there are just too many who seem too normal and sane to put it down just to some kind of insanity. So I started to look for evidence of what they were claiming. I mean, if there was only a small chance The Bible were all true, miracles, Heaven/Hell, Jesus etc that would be pretty big news right!? So the stance I took was a) if it's true I need to know more about it b) If it isn't true, once I start to examine it in more detail, it'll be obvious where they (Christians) are all going wrong.

So, I started to study as many aspects of Religion as I could find looking fundamentally at 3 kinds of evidence 1) Empircal evidence - science, known facts etc 2) Historical evidence - from both religious and non religious authors and 3) Experiential evidence - what it was like for those living a life of faith.....What I was looking for initially were the inconsistencies I thought would dis prove it all. I spent years immersed in books, youtube videos and stuff on the internet. What I found surprised me, the more I looked for inconsistency, all I found was an undeniable consistency across all the evidence supporting the Christian world view that convinced me personally that the Christian World view was correct and The Bible is the word of The one and only God who created the universe. After this I began to live as a Christian, to study the Bible, to pray everyday, like the many Christians I studied earlier but couldn't understand, I can confirm that it's been utterly life changing but also completely consistent with the factual stuff I'd learned earlier. Although above a) and b) where convincing, the experiencing of living as a Christian has completely overtaken any of the more 'rational' research.

"Wow, another nutter you may say" I guess my challenge to you is how much 'real' Scrutiny have you applied to it all? I heard the other day a well know preacher say that in his experience, it's not possible to read the New Testament twice (properly) and not be a Christian at the end of it....I challenge you, do your homework, read the New Testament twice, ask Jesus in prayer to reveal himself to you and put it to the test. I'd love to hear back afterwards.

I've been there, done that and I understand the kind of experience you can have. My "problem" is that I didn't just stop at Christianity. I figured the more you know about all religions the more you know about God. What I found was that religious experiences like yours is possible through a variety of religious beliefs.

So I don't doubt your experience and sincerity. What I question is the need to be Christian, or Muslim or Jewish or Pagan or Wiccan or Buddhist or Druid or Hare Krishna or any number of religions I haven't gotten involved in. The key to spiritual experiences I've found is not tied to a specific religious belief. It's more a result of faith, devotion and sincerity.

So my question about calling folks a liar is not about a atheist, non-religious person calling religious folks liars, it's more you have say a Christian and a Wiccan confronting each other, both sincere, faithful and devoted to their beliefs. Both having had religious experiences supporting their beliefs. In total sincerity about the God or Gods they believe in.

How do they justify the religions of the "opposing" belief? Do they just assume that the other is lying about God?

So a Wiccan comes to you and tells you all about the Gods they worship, believe in and how their beliefs in these God's fulfill their life. How do you respond to that.

That's the, uh meat, I suppose of my original question.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Since we have a rational mind and live in a rational universe from which we arose through natural processes using some elementary material (mostly hydrogen) I think it safe to say that God is rational. Or at least that God wanted things this way in our universe.

There are other beliefs, Gnostics specifically who claim the creator God of the universe is not rational.

Are they lying about God? They see an irrational universe. You are basing sanity of God on your personal opinion of the universe. So are they. How is your argument any stronger?
 
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