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Are permanent alliances in America's interests?

Are permanent alliances in America's interests?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 27.3%
  • No

    Votes: 4 36.4%
  • Other

    Votes: 3 27.3%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 1 9.1%

  • Total voters
    11

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
As the NATO summit goes on, I came across this article by a retired general who advocates for the continuation of NATO with the US taking a leading role.

Why NATO is worth preserving for US, Europe — and even Russia

President Donald Trump is in London today for a short summit tomorrow with fellow leaders of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). Auspiciously it lands on the 70th anniversary year of NATO’s founding in the tense early days of the Cold War where it — along with the Marshall Plan — signaled a deep and long-term American commitment to Europe’s democracy-based freedom and stability. This investment allowed fellow democracies and peaceful nations to safely evolve, creating a global environment where U.S. interests and businesses could flourish.

The summit comes at a pivotal time — accentuated by French President Emmanuel Macron’s recent declaration that the alliance was “brain-dead” — where the United State’s traditionally guiding role and philosophy appears more confusing than affirming for our allies in NATO and worldwide. The Trump administration’s transactional messaging and unilateral actions, often broadcast publicly rather than negotiated privately, are shredding allied confidence in U.S. reliability and creating malign openings for potential adversaries. They weaken an extraordinary assemblage of allies and partners that — despite differences — have mostly supported the United States since WWII through thick and thin. This is strategic.

Certainly, at the time NATO was created, it appeared to make sense. World War II had ended, and our relations with our former allies were degenerating into a Cold War which would last another 40 years. Europe had been devastated, and as a result, the US took the upper hand and would soon be regarded as the "leader of the free world."

But by the same token, there has been a certain level of resentment and resistance at what is perceived a hegemonic relationship. France pushed back against NATO rather early, in the 1950s, since they didn't see their interests as totally aligned with that of the United States. By the 1980s, there were large, activist disarmament movements in Europe, particularly in Germany, which was considered "ground zero" in the event of an all-out war between East and West. They were inclined to believe "better red than dead."

But since the breakup of the Soviet Union, the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact, and the ending of the Cold War, the original reasons for establishing NATO in the first place no longer seemed relevant. Similar allied treaty organizations (namely, CENTO and SEATO) didn't really last.

The retired general who wrote this article is a firm believer in the NATO alliance:

I fervently believe that after the natural creativity and adaptability of our population and our nation’s natural resources, that our greatest strength, precious really, is the network of mostly like-minded allies and partners worldwide that we’ve worked with in unison to ensure a better and more stable planet.

While this sounds good on its face, the one underlying problem is that this viewpoint presumes the existence of some dangerous "other" in the world. Some "boogieman," some "axis of evil," some villain somewhere is always out to get us and destroy our way of life. And if there isn't one, we will work our darndest to create one.

But the general goes on to repeat an often-expressed viewpoint regarding America's role in the world which I find I take issue with:

We learned the bitter lessons of isolationism after WWI, where after Pearl Harbor we entered WWII unprepared for an existential no-quarter fight against a vicious array of dictatorial states. As the post-WWII and Cold War eras increasingly wobble, we dare not make that mistake again.

"Isolationism." This has always been a misnomer. America was never "isolationist." "Isolationist" might be something like North Korea is today. Or perhaps Albania during the Cold War. In contrast, America's relationship with the world was mostly open in terms of commerce, diplomacy, and the free exchange of ideas. We were neutral and avoided what we saw as "foreign entanglements," but we were never "isolationist."

Granted, WW2 was a horrific event, but it was a continuation of WW1, and how did WW1 start? By countries forming complex systems of alliances so that a minor border scrap can suddenly escalate into a world war.

And yes, it was a mistake to be as unprepared as we were by the time of Pearl Harbor. Japan and Germany had been working tirelessly for years to build up their military forces and armaments, while the U.S. and other Allies lagged behind. But that's not really due to "isolationism" as much as it was a lack of foresight.

On the other hand, if the U.S. really was "isolationist," then Japan wouldn't have had any real reason to attack us in the first place. In that sense, the far bigger "mistake" the U.S. made was back in 1898, when we took possession of the Philippines. We were far from a disinterested bystander on the world scene by that point.

But in today's world, what are we actually dealing with? We're no longer in any kind of colonialist era where a few countries planted their flags and claimed most of the world. Most of the former colonial territories have since become independent, and now we have some 200+ independent, sovereign nations in the world today. We still have the superpowers, the major powers, the G7/G8, along with the G20, NATO - and whole bunch of small fry which appear to occupy most of our attentions these days.

Russia is often mentioned as kind of resurging "villain," although my observation is that most people in the West don't really understand Russia and often misread their intentions. Some might justify NATO's current role as necessary to counter a perceived threat coming from an increasingly hostile Russia. But on the other hand, could Russia's resurging hostility be a response to the continued existence and expansion of NATO even after the Cold War had ended? Is it reasonable for them to feel threatened by this?

Apart from Russia, there's also China. There's also a complication in Korea, divided into two countries by the same Cold War shenanigans brought about by our diplomatic geniuses. That was another great mistake in a whole series of mistakes.

It's hard to say what direction China might take or how NATO or the US should respond to whatever they might do. Japan is not actually a member of NATO, but for all intents and purposes, they're a full partner in the Western alliance system.

Obviously, if any major power (i.e. Russia or China) commits an act of aggression, then the Western powers and other allies by default would have to get together and perhaps form a coalition on a temporary basis to respond to it...if and when such a thing actually happens.

However, much of the time, NATO's attentions seem more focused on the "small fry" - nations which really aren't that powerful and wouldn't stand a chance against any individual member of NATO, let alone the entire alliance. Sure, it was nice to have the "coalition of the willing," but did it really require the combined forces of so many nations to defeat Iraq?

Do we really need a permanent alliance like NATO in this day and age? Do we have such little faith in the rest of the world that we think they'll instantly turn into a bunch of wild savages without the iron fist of NATO to hold over them and make them behave? Could others in the world see the existence of NATO as a threat to them and their interests? Could the very existence of NATO lead to a new "Axis" to contend with?
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Very intereating thread...but..

The OP fails to understand that WW2 was nothing but a banking war, and after 75 years that banking matter hasn't been solved yet.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Very intereating thread...but..

The OP fails to understand that WW2 was nothing but a banking war, and after 75 years that banking matter hasn't been solved yet.

Maybe so, but if this is true, then that would indicate that bankers are exceedingly poor strategists and planners. The winning side in WW2 had an enormous advantage at the end, to the point where they literally ruled the world (or could easily do so if they wanted to). The U.S. was in sole possession of atomic weapons, so even mighty Russia or China couldn't have opposed us.

If there's still some banking war going on, then the bankers who were on the winning side in WW2 must have been total idiots, to completely blow their strategic advantage like that.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
As the NATO summit goes on, I came across this article by a retired general who advocates for the continuation of NATO with the US taking a leading role.

Why NATO is worth preserving for US, Europe — and even Russia



Certainly, at the time NATO was created, it appeared to make sense. World War II had ended, and our relations with our former allies were degenerating into a Cold War which would last another 40 years. Europe had been devastated, and as a result, the US took the upper hand and would soon be regarded as the "leader of the free world."

But by the same token, there has been a certain level of resentment and resistance at what is perceived a hegemonic relationship. France pushed back against NATO rather early, in the 1950s, since they didn't see their interests as totally aligned with that of the United States. By the 1980s, there were large, activist disarmament movements in Europe, particularly in Germany, which was considered "ground zero" in the event of an all-out war between East and West. They were inclined to believe "better red than dead."

But since the breakup of the Soviet Union, the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact, and the ending of the Cold War, the original reasons for establishing NATO in the first place no longer seemed relevant. Similar allied treaty organizations (namely, CENTO and SEATO) didn't really last.

The retired general who wrote this article is a firm believer in the NATO alliance:



While this sounds good on its face, the one underlying problem is that this viewpoint presumes the existence of some dangerous "other" in the world. Some "boogieman," some "axis of evil," some villain somewhere is always out to get us and destroy our way of life. And if there isn't one, we will work our darndest to create one.

But the general goes on to repeat an often-expressed viewpoint regarding America's role in the world which I find I take issue with:



"Isolationism." This has always been a misnomer. America was never "isolationist." "Isolationist" might be something like North Korea is today. Or perhaps Albania during the Cold War. In contrast, America's relationship with the world was mostly open in terms of commerce, diplomacy, and the free exchange of ideas. We were neutral and avoided what we saw as "foreign entanglements," but we were never "isolationist."

Granted, WW2 was a horrific event, but it was a continuation of WW1, and how did WW1 start? By countries forming complex systems of alliances so that a minor border scrap can suddenly escalate into a world war.

And yes, it was a mistake to be as unprepared as we were by the time of Pearl Harbor. Japan and Germany had been working tirelessly for years to build up their military forces and armaments, while the U.S. and other Allies lagged behind. But that's not really due to "isolationism" as much as it was a lack of foresight.

On the other hand, if the U.S. really was "isolationist," then Japan wouldn't have had any real reason to attack us in the first place. In that sense, the far bigger "mistake" the U.S. made was back in 1898, when we took possession of the Philippines. We were far from a disinterested bystander on the world scene by that point.

But in today's world, what are we actually dealing with? We're no longer in any kind of colonialist era where a few countries planted their flags and claimed most of the world. Most of the former colonial territories have since become independent, and now we have some 200+ independent, sovereign nations in the world today. We still have the superpowers, the major powers, the G7/G8, along with the G20, NATO - and whole bunch of small fry which appear to occupy most of our attentions these days.

Russia is often mentioned as kind of resurging "villain," although my observation is that most people in the West don't really understand Russia and often misread their intentions. Some might justify NATO's current role as necessary to counter a perceived threat coming from an increasingly hostile Russia. But on the other hand, could Russia's resurging hostility be a response to the continued existence and expansion of NATO even after the Cold War had ended? Is it reasonable for them to feel threatened by this?

Apart from Russia, there's also China. There's also a complication in Korea, divided into two countries by the same Cold War shenanigans brought about by our diplomatic geniuses. That was another great mistake in a whole series of mistakes.

It's hard to say what direction China might take or how NATO or the US should respond to whatever they might do. Japan is not actually a member of NATO, but for all intents and purposes, they're a full partner in the Western alliance system.

Obviously, if any major power (i.e. Russia or China) commits an act of aggression, then the Western powers and other allies by default would have to get together and perhaps form a coalition on a temporary basis to respond to it...if and when such a thing actually happens.

However, much of the time, NATO's attentions seem more focused on the "small fry" - nations which really aren't that powerful and wouldn't stand a chance against any individual member of NATO, let alone the entire alliance. Sure, it was nice to have the "coalition of the willing," but did it really require the combined forces of so many nations to defeat Iraq?

Do we really need a permanent alliance like NATO in this day and age? Do we have such little faith in the rest of the world that we think they'll instantly turn into a bunch of wild savages without the iron fist of NATO to hold over them and make them behave? Could others in the world see the existence of NATO as a threat to them and their interests? Could the very existence of NATO lead to a new "Axis" to contend with?

Voted Undecided. I never completely accepted the idea peddled by the far left that they could shove the "imperialist" label on NATO and oppose it. I wanted a deeper understanding about the future of international relations and why I should support a socialist/anti-imperialist vision rather than what we have now.

It was never a subject I looked that deeply in to, so I remain on the fence between centre-left (Pro) and far left (Against) views on NATO and military alliances.

Trumps "America First" policy does make it look like we are heading to a major rethink on how the world order is structured as does the rise of nations like Russia, China and India. Europe may not want American leadership if it continues to be as unstable and erratic as it is but may decide on its own European defence force without US support.
 

Stanyon

WWMRD?
I voted other because nothing is permanent, there may be a point where you have to cut the ties to protect your own interests.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
But going back to the main topic...a NATO is something outdated...
Only a military alliance which includes Russia makes sense to me.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
In general, ''permanent alliances'' are indeed in the US interests if only because these alliances insure the long term security of the US frontier from its neighbours. Of course the fact that the US is massively more powerful than Canada or Mexico makes this threat minimal even in case of bad blood, but it's always good not to have to man the longest continuous frontier on Earth. Permanent alliances are also excellent to establish long term trade relationship and cooperation in the domain of research and development. Should an alliance prove to be powerful and large enough, it can basically dictate or at least have a major influence on international norms as well as favorise the spread of cultural values and governance principles through ''soft power'' alone. It's also a necessary first step toward larger cooperation and federation of the various States of the planet. The only weakness of such alliance is that while they may prevent the eruption of small conflicts and generally reduces the number of wars, they can lead to bloodier and longer conflict should war erupt anyway.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Au contraire...I wonder ...if Germany hadn't decided to ally with Japan, there would have been no Pearl Harbor, because the US would have had no pretext to go to the war.

(By constitution the US must have a pretext to go to war)

The Constitution gives Congress the power to declare war, but it doesn't specify that they have to have a reason. The pretext is mainly for the sake of public opinion and gaining popular support for a war. Also, due to certain treaty obligations (mainly the Kellogg-Briand Pact), a plausible casus belli was required so as to avoid accusations of aggressive warfare.

It was different in the 19th century and up until WW1, when nations could make war and invade all they wanted, since it was relatively easy to mobilize populations in support of aggressive warfare. That was certainly the case in the United States, or else we wouldn't have grown as quickly and as large as we did. We didn't need no stinkin' pretext to fight the Sioux or the Comanches.

But after WW1, aggressive wars of conquest were seen as "gauche" and "low brow" by the sophisticated aristocrats and other world leaders of the time. That's why they got together and formed the Kellogg-Briand Pact. It was the West's way of saying "Now that we've conquered the whole world and control everything, we've decided to turn over a new leaf and declare that no one should ever invade or conquer another nation again! Aren't we wonderful?"

After that, warfare and geopolitics became more of a political game. Whenever a country wanted to engage in warfare, they had to create the conditions whereby they could make it look like "the other side started it." So, then, they could make the case that it wasn't aggressive warfare, but merely defending themselves.

As for Germany and Japan allying with each other, they were actually fighting their own independent wars which just happened to be against some of the same countries. Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor was part of a larger plan to neutralize the Philippines, since U.S. control of that territory was a potential threat to Japanese designs on the Dutch East Indies. If the U.S. had truly been neutral, Japan would not have seen it as a threat, and would not have attacked the U.S. fleet at Pearl Harbor or the Philippines.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
As to permanent alliances, nothing is truly permanent. I don't expect the world of 1000 years from now to look anything like the world of today.

But I answered 'yes' assuming permanent meant the foreseeable future.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I voted other because nothing is permanent, there may be a point where you have to cut the ties to protect your own interests.
This is the second time I've agreed with one of your posts, just today! Am I losing my mind??? :eek:
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Russia is often mentioned as kind of resurging "villain," although my observation is that most people in the West don't really understand Russia and often misread their intentions. Some might justify NATO's current role as necessary to counter a perceived threat coming from an increasingly hostile Russia. But on the other hand, could Russia's resurging hostility be a response to the continued existence and expansion of NATO even after the Cold War had ended?

If sovereign nations want to join NATO they can. Russia is freaking out as NATO prevents it from taking action in other nations as it has done in Georgia, Crimea and Ukraine. Land grabs are not a valid rational. NATO and the EU also helps nations shift away from being dominated by Russia regarding trade.

Is it reasonable for them to feel threatened by this?

NATO is a defensive alliance. It can not be used to start a war as an aggressor.

Obviously, if any major power (i.e. Russia or China) commits an act of aggression, then the Western powers and other allies by default would have to get together and perhaps form a coalition on a temporary basis to respond to it...if and when such a thing actually happens.

Depends on what nation the act of aggression is against. If a NATO member that member can invoke the treaty without major discussions.

However, much of the time, NATO's attentions seem more focused on the "small fry" - nations which really aren't that powerful and wouldn't stand a chance against any individual member of NATO, let alone the entire alliance.

That is because the only member of NATO that can fight a major power is the US. The rest of the members combined couldn't fight Russia and China. Russia has over 14k MBT. NATO minus the US can barely muster 4k. MBT are key to territorial control.


Sure, it was nice to have the "coalition of the willing," but did it really require the combined forces of so many nations to defeat Iraq?

That wasn't NATO. The US didn't need any other nation's military as in fighting units to take out Iraq. The CotW at best are support and logistics which helped but was not required. It was made so it didn't look like the US went rogue (which it did)

Do we really need a permanent alliance like NATO in this day and age?

Any member can leave the alliance after 25 years of membership. It isn't permanent

Do we have such little faith in the rest of the world that we think they'll instantly turn into a bunch of wild savages without the iron fist of NATO to hold over them and make them behave?

Crimea, Ukraine, George, South China Sea, NK/SK, etc. The rest of the world does not need to turn "savage" just a few members with power and the will.

Could others in the world see the existence of NATO as a threat to them and their interests?

Sure but this is can be true of many alliances. US and Japan alliances undermines China. Alliance with SK undermine China and NK. Alliances with the Philippines undermines China. Alliances with Taiwan undermines China. The same applies to former Warsaw pact members flipping to NATO.

Could the very existence of NATO lead to a new "Axis" to contend with?

Maybe down the road but I do not see it that happening right now. China needs the West for trade more than Russia does. Russia is checked in NATO areas. Other nations have no real power to be such a threat at this time. Something drastic needs to happen in China and the US for any credible pact to challenge NATO militarily

I voted "No" as NATO isn't permanent nor does the US need NATO. NATO needs the US.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Nothing is permanent, and I fail to see why a military alliance would be any exception.

That said, NATO seems to me to fulfill a very useful quasi-diplomatic role precisely because it has a permanent need to deal with the conflicts of military interests of so many nations.

Had it existed 130 years ago we might well have avoided the twin obscenities of 1914 and 1939.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Russia can be understood by its actions - invading other nations, murdering opponents of Putin and so forth. Words don't matter when we see actions.

Well, it also requires understanding their history and how they look at the world. It's not simply a matter of understanding their actions, but also understanding the causes of those actions. Cause and effect.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
If sovereign nations want to join NATO they can. Russia is freaking out as NATO prevents it from taking action in other nations as it has done in Georgia, Crimea and Ukraine. Land grabs are not a valid rational. NATO and the EU also helps nations shift away from being dominated by Russia regarding trade.

NATO didn't prevent Russian actions in Ukraine, Crimea, or Georgia. I don't even see that Russia is "freaking out," nor do I see any indication that the Russians want to take action which NATO is somehow (according to you) preventing. I also wouldn't characterize their actions as "land grabs," since it's more a matter of tying up loose ends which should have been tied up when the Soviet Union broke up. I don't see that NATO has any real business interfering in that, since it doesn't threaten any NATO country. Ukraine and Georgia are not NATO members.

NATO is a defensive alliance. It can not be used to start a war as an aggressor.

That doesn't answer the question. Is it reasonable for Russia, a nation which has been invaded countless times in its history, to feel threatened by a coalition of nations all unified by a military pact which was originally formed to target Russia?

Sure, talk is cheap, and it's easy to say that it's "a defensive alliance," but that's what they all say. Are the Russians just supposed to take our word for it?

If the shoe was on the other foot, if the Chinese or the Russians headed up an alliance of Latin American countries and were all lined up against us, wouldn't we feel threatened, even if they said it was "a defensive alliance"?

Depends on what nation the act of aggression is against. If a NATO member that member can invoke the treaty without major discussions.

Sure, but there would still be major discussions. I don't think they would attack a NATO member. But my point is, nations can still communicate and respond to aggression whether they're part of a permanent alliance or not. The alliance can be formed for just that occasion and then dissolved.

That is because the only member of NATO that can fight a major power is the US. The rest of the members combined couldn't fight Russia and China. Russia has over 14k MBT. NATO minus the US can barely muster 4k. MBT are key to territorial control.

The countries of NATO are modern, advanced, and industrialized. The combined populations of just Germany, France, and the UK would be over 200 million, far greater than the Russian population. They are more than capable of building more tanks and other munitions, and they could raise an army much bigger than anything the Russians could match. Theoretically, they could do that.

China, of course, could field a much larger army, but they're also much farther away.

But my point was that, apart from Russia or China, we don't really need a "NATO" to deal with countries like Iraq, Somalia, Libya, etc.

That wasn't NATO. The US didn't need any other nation's military as in fighting units to take out Iraq. The CotW at best are support and logistics which helped but was not required. It was made so it didn't look like the US went rogue (which it did)

True, it wasn't NATO directly, although it does tie in to our overall alliance system. It also relates to a certain predilection of our political and military leadership to be overly concerned with what things "look like."

The strange thing about the US going "rogue" was that Iraq was never really much of a direct threat to US soil. Our allies may have felt threatened, but even then, Iraq was pretty well bottled up after 1991.

Any member can leave the alliance after 25 years of membership. It isn't permanent

Okay, then the question becomes, should the US leave the alliance? Does the alliance have any reason to exist at all?

Crimea, Ukraine, George, South China Sea, NK/SK, etc. The rest of the world does not need to turn "savage" just a few members with power and the will.

To do what? To have border disputes? Should we get involved in every border dispute?

In that sense, the question is not so much about the rest of the world as much as it is about our perceptions of it.

I'm not saying that any of these world governments in question are a bunch of choir boys, but each government and nation has its own particular point of view. They see us a certain way, and we see them a certain way.

You seem to be suggesting that, without the unity of NATO or the military might of the U.S., these "few members with the power and the will" would do...what? Would they turn savage? Granted, these are not nice people. After all, they're politicians. They are what they are. But are they complete maniacs? I doubt it. For one thing, no one can really do that much due to so many countries having the nuclear option. That, just by itself, is enough to keep most of us "honest," so to speak.

As for Ukraine and Crimea, it's a bad situation, but it's not a problem that we, in America, are presently disposed to resolve. It's really a matter for the Ukrainians and Russians to settle between themselves. We don't want them interfering in our elections, so maybe we should think about leaving them alone, too. Let them solve it.

Sure but this is can be true of many alliances. US and Japan alliances undermines China. Alliance with SK undermine China and NK. Alliances with the Philippines undermines China. Alliances with Taiwan undermines China. The same applies to former Warsaw pact members flipping to NATO.

Yes, but all of that implies that there's some dangerous "other" which needs to be undermined by the existence of an alliance. The very fact that those Warsaw Pact members were able to flip to NATO at all was confirmation that the whole reason for having that alliance in the first place was because Russia was considered some villainous bad guy. But then, just out of the blue, Russia stopped being that.

The danger was over, the Cold War was over. The communists were drummed out of power and a new era was beginning - or so we all thought. There was nothing left to "undermine," or at least no reason to do so at that point.

Maybe down the road but I do not see it that happening right now. China needs the West for trade more than Russia does. Russia is checked in NATO areas. Other nations have no real power to be such a threat at this time. Something drastic needs to happen in China and the US for any credible pact to challenge NATO militarily

I voted "No" as NATO isn't permanent nor does the US need NATO. NATO needs the US.

Well, as I mentioned above, the nuclear option keeps everyone honest and within some measure of reasonable restraint. It doesn't turn them into nice guys, but at least we don't see leaders going hog wild invading country after country. Because no one is really that crazy.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Well, it also requires understanding their history and how they look at the world. It's not simply a matter of understanding their actions, but also understanding the causes of those actions. Cause and effect.
And who initiated them - a product of the USSR who remembers the full extent of their rule.
 
Do we really need a permanent alliance like NATO in this day and age? Do we have such little faith in the rest of the world that we think they'll instantly turn into a bunch of wild savages without the iron fist of NATO to hold over them and make them behave? Could others in the world see the existence of NATO as a threat to them and their interests? Could the very existence of NATO lead to a new "Axis" to contend with?

One of the core drivers behind NATO was that it made the European nations more dependent on America.

By acting as guarantor of their security, the US disincentivised European defence spending allowing them cheap security in exchange for ceding most of their ability to act independently of America.

When Trump accuses the Europeans of 'not pulling their weight' it is correct, although he doesn't mention that this is what America had always intended.
 
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