Are Religions and Gods manmade?

[Bird123]

No all I see is your logo and text. Looking at your relies in detail I deduce you are trying to wind others up or trolling or both.

Seems like a narrow view. Is everything that does not agree with your beliefs evil, bad or out to get you?

Raised in religion, that is what I was taught. I would not allow myself to be corrupted with that thinking.

What you choose to do is entirely up to you. You have my blessing whatever that is. I make no demands of anyone.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!! to me anyway.

 

[Trailblazer]

How little you really understand. Religion can corrupt even an atheist's thinking when religion teaches people to value Beliefs above all else. Many many people do.

Religion is mankind's attempt to understand God.

Religion, in its pristine state, before mankind corrupts it, is the mantle of justice and wisdom vouchsafed by God unto humanity.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

You believe you have something better than religion, but you don't, because you only have a man-made belief, your own, and it has no teachings, laws, or path to follow. Moreover, your belief system has no plan to unite humanity so we can all live together in peace and harmony, and it has no blueprint instructions for building a new world order. In short, it is all about the individual and what he can "get" for himself. In other words, it is a selfish belief system.

 

[Trailblazer]

I placed truth out there.

Where? What truth? I do not see anything.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Again if you follow the Abrahamic religion you have to believe in Adam, Eve and 6 days.

No, I don’t. I’m OEC. Those creative days were not literal. The Hebrew ‘yom’, used here, can mean an unspecified length of time. In understanding that, all it takes is common sense. On the 6th day, too much was going on, for it to be a literal 24 hours.

Jehovah God said in Genesis 2 18, “It is not good for the man to be by himself.” (After only a few hours? Unlikely.)

Then, in Vs.23, after Eve was created, Adam said “This is at last bone of my bone...” Or “This is now bone of my bone...”.

The text indicates that some time had gone by.....all on the 6th day.

 

[Ancient Soul]

As I said, it is not an opinion, it is a suggestion as to how we might develop certain beliefs. Priming is often involved in many ways as to how we believe what we believe. I know, as a whole, humans do have a tendency towards beliefs in God or gods, or spirits, and souls, but there might be some reasonable explanations for this without any of these actually being true - and the numbers believing such isn't a sufficient reason for any belief being true. And as pointed out by myself, and others, there does appear to be examples where certain peoples don't have such concepts. Exception to the rule perhaps.

Like others, you are intent on seeing your early experience in a particular way. You may be right of course, but seeing as very young children don't tend to remember anything of their early life before about age two or three (I have only one memory from that period), it tends to follow that one should be suspicious about how we interpret such memories. My experience was rather physical - being lost on a beach - and as such has never left my memory, been altered, or ever been contradicted - my mother verified it years later in every detail. I doubt I even had a concept of God at that age, and apparently before about age three, a mother and God seem to be on a par as to how they are seen by the child - if they even know about God. Whatever you experienced, I myself would leave it open rather than settling on a definite explanation - which then went on to determine subsequent beliefs. But that is me, and I have the same attitude to mentions of NDEs/OBEs, etc. where I am reliant on second-hand evidence, no matter the numbers discussed. This chap died recently - no one seemed to want his money:

James Randi: Magician and sceptic dies aged 92

Well, THAT is more down to earth instead of your w-a-y- out there theory on how you believe children create a "God" construct because of their mommies.

And don't go telling me or anyone else who had an NDE/OBE:

"you are intent on seeing your early experience in a particular way"

As you have no idea what you are talking about. You clearly are not a mind reader, so don't pretend to be one. For again, I was way too young and had NO concept of NDE/OBEs, soul, God, "heaven", reincarnation, etc. until that spiritual experience (NDE/OBE). So could not have been "intent" on seeing anything, not knowing anything about any of them. And there is no way to equate what I encountered when I experienced God, to my mommy, that's just laughable. Seriously, I laugh every time I think of your making that claim. You obviously have no idea what the real God is like, not the slightest.

I also find it arrogant to try telling me that I could not have remembered the spiritual event, because you think children cannot remember "everyday events" at that age! Holy ----!!! THAT was no "everyday event", that was a mind blowing, life changing, event!!! It's etched into my mind forever!!! And nothing you claim will EVER change that.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Where? What truth? I do not see anything.

Ironic, that's what I keep on saying about the Baha'i mythology.

 

[joelr]

I have already showed people what I believe, if they were interested, but it is not my job to convince people it is true. The first principle that Baha’u’llah inculcated is that everyone has to do their own individual investigation of truth.

But one cannot "prove" it to themselves. You can prove some scientific laws. You cannot prove a myth is real based on any available evidence I have seen.

It is incredible to me the things people believe by the millions. I do not know what people believe these bizarre things, only they know why, or maybe they don’t.

Why is it incredible to you if you believe one of them?

Who was convinced by these demonstrations? Only the people who witnessed them are convinced. The other people can only read about them. I can tell you about some of the miracles of Baha’u’llah, but would you believe me?

That's my point, there is no good evidence.

How do you think that a deity would/could do that?

Well in the OT Yahweh shows up as a pillar of smoke and fire (at night). He rides in on a giant God-chariot at one point. He fights a sea monster at another. He sends his guy (Satan) to deliver a plague to kill 70,000 people. So that was probably a spectacle. A deity can figure it out when needed.

I cannot say who other people believe, only myself, but I do not believe in God or my religion for emotional reasons, but rather for logical reasons. That does not mean I have no emotions towards my beliefs, we all have emotions.

You do not believe for logical reasons. You might think you do but there are no text in any scripture that cannot have simply been written by smart people. Taking any supposed "message from God" and believing it's not a creation from a person is not logical. It's been done countless times and we know it's the most favored way to start a religion. It's still never been shown to be from any Gods.
Just the idea alone that Jesus was a "manifestation of God" but all of the endless biblical preachings about having no other Gods or prophets are all mis-translations has zero logic.
What's logical is they are both myths created by people.

I do not believe that because I believe there is more to scripture than words, if it is truly inspired by God.

Right but I'm literally saying there is no scripture that could not have been written by a person. People can write text with many layers of meaning. You cannot show a scripture and say "look, this is proof of a deity". Again, you are choosing to believe it's a message from a god.

I do not know of any other path. I believe all scripture that originated from what I believe is a Messenger of God and although I do not believe all the stories in scripture are literally true, they have symbolic meaning.

Uh, the other path is to realize scripture is created by people. Biblical scripture is literary fiction. It follows the Rank-Ragalin mythotype more than King Arthur. It uses all of the familiar mythic literary devices and the authors who wrote the NT would have been educated in Heroditus which was an earlier messianic story. There is a story in Luke that is literally a line by line transformation of the OT Kings narrative. The same structure of " a story wrapped in another story" is shared in the OT and NT - same story about a woman bleeding for 12 years and a child.

Yes they have symbolic meaning but to take another step and say they are written by a God doesn't have any logic. If all scripture is from God then that includes every myth ever. SO now humans cannot write myths without it being God? What about the modern Cargo cults? What about any modern hero's journey story?

God could do that if He chose to because God is omnipotent, so obviously there is a reason God has never done so. I have my own beliefs about that as Baha’u’llah explained why God has never spoken to all people and demonstrated His power.

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-29.html.utf8?query=thunderstruck&action=highlight#pg72

Wait, what? First of all in almost all scripture Gods show up and do stuff with people watching? Did I not just mention Exodus? Did Jesus and Krishna not take human form then die and resurrect then float away into space? Yahweh is doing all sorts of dazzling feats in the OT? So that's a bunch of BS. Or is that all the metaphorical stuff? See now we are having to do all sorts of massaging of truth to get everything to work.
Or, y'know, like the gospels, some really educated, literate person wrote some really good myths?

All scriptures were written by men but there is no reason to believe they were delusional or lying. Although much of what they wrote are fictional stories, I believe many of the stories have symbolic meanings.

Since we already know people write myths with good intentions this isn't an issue. People get together, take their laws, morals, wisdom and frame it into a mythology. This was the way humans lived until modern times. It was essential and most people were ready to believe in some myth. It was a glue to keep societies together. Nothing wrong with it. It just isn't essential to hold beliefs in gods without evidence any longer. We have secular laws and can still take morals from religious stories, literature and modern media as well. Any story following the heroes journey is inspiring.

I agree, these are not historical accounts. The gospels are anonymous stories written in a highly mythic, metaphorical way.

But trying to say this is still a message from God is highly illogical. The majority of the message is how bad it's going to be for non-believers, how bad Satan wants to corrupt you, and how important it is to have your "sin" be removed from a magic blood atonement sacrifice. Oh and hell. Are you going to claim all this was misinterpretation? That's a stretch? They seem pretty confident.

Rabbi Hillell was already teaching the golden rule, non-judgment, obligation to self and others around 0 AD. He didn't need to frame this as a message from God. People already understand this wisdom.
Trying to rescue parts of these archaic myths that work with your religion and get around scripture that doesn't is a ridiculous dance of goal post switching. They are all just stories. Some laws are bad some wisdom is good and all the god stuff is made up.

I do not believe that Jesus was “literally” the Son of God, because God can have no offspring. Rather, I believe son denotes the relationship Jesus has with His Father, God.

Or....stories of sons/daughters of Gods who died and rose were a super common myth that was spreading around ONLY THAT REGION. Offspring of gods was simply a myth that gained attraction around the Meditrannean. Hercules was the son of Zeus. This is what a demigod is. The specific resurrecting kind were popular near Judea before Christianity. Scholarship believes that Christianity was an updated version of Judaism which included this popular myth.
There are no distant parts of the world where prophets received these same messages. Only in places where people could communicate with each other and religious syncretism could happen.

 

[joelr]

If you want to see the prophecies Baha'u'llah fulfilled and how they were fulfilled you can read about them yourself in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears.

Read it and then tell me why you think they were not fulfilled.

You can read some of them here:
Baháʼí prophecies - Wikipedia

and find links to other writings. There are of course many things that have not happened. And other prophecies matched to wars were made not long before when civila war and turmoil was already happening and the political climate was not hard to read.

A "prediction" of nuclear power is vague enough it could also be referring to some virus and is followed by a tale of someone controlling lightning. It's all vague enough that some things will map to it.
He predicted war in Germany (on the Rhine) in 1873 which would happen in 1914. Except the Franco-Prussian War just happened and he saw that violence and knew more war would come.

However German political theorist Friedrich Engels made far more accurate predictions about WW1 also based on the Franco-Prussian war and was able to predict the scope and numbers of people involved. He credited no godly wisdom either.

War being rampant in past centuries is hardly something one couldn't easily throw out a few prophecies based on political climates and what current leaders are moving towards and be fairly correct.
Inaccurate prophecies will be skimmed over and never will we see a real prophecy that actually gives real information like - "in 1945 a bomb will be created unleashing the vast energy in matter. " or the process that fuels the sun will be used as a weapon in the 1940's?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Well, THAT is more down to earth instead of your w-a-y- out there theory on how you believe children create a "God" construct because of their mommies.

I didn't say that, or mean that. Perhaps my meaning was lost in the words - often happens. And I believe it was Freud who made the connection between how babies are so dependent on their mothers and this being god-like in nature, even if he was wrong about this. My point was about how we come to look at relationships in god-like ways - gods, leaders, and hierarchies, and so forth - and where this might have originated. It might just be natural of course.

And as for the priming, do you know how many times your parents talked about God when you were a young child, and which you will no doubt have forgotten, along with much else before the age of three or so? This can't have primed you ready for some religious experience?

Priming (psychology) - Wikipedia

And don't go telling me or anyone else who had an NDE/OBE:

"you are intent on seeing your early experience in a particular way"

Why not - do you have a full understanding of the mind's processes - and especially that of a child - to know that such things are definitely not the products of the mind?

As you have no idea what you are talking about. You clearly are not a mind reader, so don't pretend to be one.

Where did I imply that I was?

For again, I was way too young and had NO concept of NDE/OBEs, soul, God, "heaven", reincarnation, etc. until that spiritual experience (NDE/OBE). So could not have been "intent" on seeing anything, not knowing anything about any of them. And there is no way to equate what I encountered when I experienced God, to my mommy, that's just laughable. Seriously, I laugh every time I think of your making that claim. You obviously have no idea what the real God is like, not the slightest.

And there is no way that you have retrospectively altered anything? I said that your interpretation of the event was fixed at the time - for whatever reason - and hence has subsequently determined what you believe now. Leaving no other possibilities open - when there might be.

I also find it arrogant to try telling me that I could not have remembered the spiritual event, because you think children cannot remember "everyday events" at that age! Holy ----!!! THAT was no "everyday event", that was a mind blowing, life changing, event!!! It's etched into my mind forever!!! And nothing you claim will EVER change that.

Not saying anything of the sort. The facts tell us that very few adults remember anything before age two or three - whatever the event - and things happening purely in the mind are possibly the most disputable to have a clear recollection of. You won't even see the possibility of another interpretation - that's all.

You should look at your reaction - getting angry - as perhaps a defence mechanism for your belief. You may be right but ...

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

BTW, I was not referring to predictions Baha'u'llah made, I was referring yo prophecies that were fulfilled by His Coming.

Who decided that?

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

No, I don’t. I’m OEC. Those creative days were not literal. The Hebrew ‘yom’, used here, can mean an unspecified length of time. In understanding that, all it takes is common sense. On the 6th day, too much was going on, for it to be a literal 24 hours.

Jehovah God said in Genesis 2 18, “It is not good for the man to be by himself.” (After only a few hours? Unlikely.)

Then, in Vs.23, after Eve was created, Adam said “This is at last bone of my bone...” Or “This is now bone of my bone...”.

The text indicates that some time had gone by.....all on the 6th day.

That wasn't what I was driving at. The length of what a day is is up for discussion, but the actual creation myth isn't. A god either created it or didn't, not tiny parts that scientists haven't resolved. Why would a god need more than 24 hours to create something? He just says "Be there" and it is. He doesn't say "I'll let evolution do 99.9999% for me."

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Right but I'm literally saying there is no scripture that could not have been written by a person. People can write text with many layers of meaning. You cannot show a scripture and say "look, this is proof of a deity". Again, you are choosing to believe it's a message from a god.

This is where all the myths fall down. They haven't written anything that could have been from an all-knowing, all-seeing, omnipotent god. If one prophecy foretold anything with accuracy that could be a guide. If it wasn't in a pile of other prophecies and gave pinpoint dates, reasons, consequences no one could foresee.

 

[Trailblazer]

Who decided that?

Who decided what?

 

[Bird123]

Religion, in its pristine state, before mankind corrupts it, is the mantle of justice and wisdom vouchsafed by God unto humanity.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

You believe you have something better than religion, but you don't, because you only have a man-made belief, your own, and it has no teachings, laws, or path to follow. Moreover, your belief system has no plan to unite humanity so we can all live together in peace and harmony, and it has no blueprint instructions for building a new world order. In short, it is all about the individual and what he can "get" for himself. In other words, it is a selfish belief system.

You really have it bad, don't you? If you take the people out of religion, you have no religion. God doesn't make laws. People do. Example: Did God put in the USA constitution separation of church and state? What about freedom of religion? Was this God's idea? People choose laws. God merely show you what is. You learn. You decide which are the most intelligent choices. God requires no laws. There is no need.

New world order? Everybody wants to rule the world is mankind's greatest problem. Much is lost when you restrict the diversity of creativity and ideas. Let's see how long your new world order will last? Take note from history of those who have tried.

You have so very much to learn. You still do not think for yourself.

God grants total freedom of choice. Why don't you copy God, as I have, instead of new world order control?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!!

 

[Bird123]

Where? What truth? I do not see anything.

Knowledge and Truth surround us all. Can you really be blind to it all? There is no time limit on learning. Take as much time as you need to see that which stares us all in the face.

How long did mankind watch birds fly before mankind figured out how? Some very smart people watched, learned and discovered that truth. Now we have air transportation. What a wonder learning and Discovering can accomplish.

For those who said if God wanted man to fly, God would have given man wings, they would still be cave people accepting and wanting the answers served up on a plate. The people with the wide view will help carry others forward pointing the way.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That wasn't what I was driving at. The length of what a day is is up for discussion, but the actual creation myth isn't. A god either created it or didn't, not tiny parts that scientists haven't resolved. Why would a god need more than 24 hours to create something? He just says "Be there" and it is. He doesn't say "I'll let evolution do 99.9999% for me."

First off, is Jehovah God governed by time? According to the Bible (the only extant book that tells us about Him), He doesn't age. Billions of years mean nothing to Him.
He installed the processes & mechanisms affecting life...why wouldn't He let them 'do their job'?
Natural selection serves God's purpose, and His love for humankind (when one meditates on what the Scriptures reveal). Believe it or not.
I can show you, if you want to learn about it. BTW, I was taught this... I didn't reach this understanding on my own. But I will be glad to share it with you.

Take care.

 

[Ancient Soul]

I didn't say that, or mean that. Perhaps my meaning was lost in the words - often happens. And I believe it was Freud who made the connection between how babies are so dependent on their mothers and this being god-like in nature, even if he was wrong about this. My point was about how we come to look at relationships in god-like ways - gods, leaders, and hierarchies, and so forth - and where this might have originated. It might just be natural of course.

Sure you did, right here:

Such might not be ignored, but perhaps explained, if they all tend to come from the same place. A child is dependent upon its mother (usually), such that the mother is essentially a god to the child. Might this be where we are primed for gods? Such that we earlier assigned agency to those things that we didn't understand and just refined our beliefs as we became more sophisticated.

And as for the priming, do you know how many times your parents talked about God when you were a young child, and which you will no doubt have forgotten, along with much else before the age of three or so? This can't have primed you ready for some religious experience?

Priming (psychology) - Wikipedia

Why not - do you have a full understanding of the mind's processes - and especially that of a child - to know that such things are definitely not the products of the mind?

My parents NEVER talked about God or any other religious matter.

And I have a full understanding of my own mind and memories.

Where did I imply that I was?
And there is no way that you have retrospectively altered anything? I said that your interpretation of the event was fixed at the time - for whatever reason - and hence has subsequently determined what you believe now. Leaving no other possibilities open - when there might be.
Not saying anything of the sort. The facts tell us that very few adults remember anything before age two or three - whatever the event - and things happening purely in the mind are possibly the most disputable to have a clear recollection of. You won't even see the possibility of another interpretation - that's all.

You should look at your reaction - getting angry - as perhaps a defence mechanism for your belief. You may be right but ...

You will find that most people get upset when some idiot comes along and tries telling them this or that did or did not happen in their lives, when they have no idea what they are talking about.

Anyway, your opinion is noted and since you have nothing else to offer but this constant repeating of your opinion, I think we are done.

 

[Trailblazer]

You really have it bad, don't you? If you take the people out of religion, you have no religion. God doesn't make laws. People do.

I believe that God reveals laws through Messengers. That is why they are called Laws of God.
You are free to believe as you wish.

God grants total freedom of choice. Why don't you copy God, as I have,

Because nobody has ever seen God and nobody knows what God is doing at any time.

 

[joelr]

First off, is Jehovah God governed by time? According to the Bible (the only extant book that tells us about Him), He doesn't age. Billions of years mean nothing to Him.
He installed the processes & mechanisms affecting life...why wouldn't He let them 'do their job'?
Natural selection serves God's purpose, and His love for humankind (when one meditates on what the Scriptures reveal). Believe it or not.
I can show you, if you want to learn about it. BTW, I was taught this... I didn't reach this understanding on my own. But I will be glad to share it with you.

Take care.

The OT God doesn't have much love for mankind. Yahweh seems to only care about the Israelites which is strangely tribal. As long as they don't practice freedom of religion, then he hates them as well.
He killed 70,000 to punish David for taking a census. Then it happens again in Chronicles.

It gets worse in the NT with the Persian rip-off of eternal hell and Satan just for freedom of religion.

 

[joelr]

This is where all the myths fall down. They haven't written anything that could have been from an all-knowing, all-seeing, omnipotent god. If one prophecy foretold anything with accuracy that could be a guide. If it wasn't in a pile of other prophecies and gave pinpoint dates, reasons, consequences no one could foresee.

The OT messianic prophecies were likely used as a guide to write the NT which makes it look like they came to pass. At least we know the writers of the NT had a chance to see the OT so they cannot be considered definitive proof of prophecy.

Actually traditional prophets like Nostradamus occasionally come pretty close to events while still being vague. It shows that you don't need supernatural foresight to make predictions that will look reasonably accurate.