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Are Religions and Gods manmade?

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
When has any religion that imposes "God's" laws on its people ever worked?

No Messenger or Message given by God has ever compeled any person to accept God's Laws.

So the statement is not applicable.

If the followers can't and don't follow the laws, then why would anybody else?

No one is obligated to follow the law, but we do end up reaping what we sow.

For me It is the age old cop out to blame those that try, but may not always succeed as the reason one has not tried themselves.

In the end those that try build strong communities and nations are at least trying and so to me the better question may be, "why do the people that choose not to follow God's Laws, wish to bludge of the successes built in society by those that do try.

Unfortunately, this age is about pulling apart strong ties built over generations with blood sweat and tears.

Why didn't he give them the capacity to obey his rules in the first place?

The capacity is given to all mankind. Thus why do we still choose to ignore God's Messenger and the Laws given for this age?

Why would we think there is a better way than what Baha'u'llah offered? If a person answers that question, it answers the question before it as well.

Regards Tony
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
The Ark ratios mean nothing. Ship building factors in dozens of factors depending on material, style and many many other factors. 3 ratios do not give much information at all. The apologetics site was able to conclude the ship was reasonably safe. In this time ship building with what materials people had was already mastered to the highest degree for their limitations. 3 ratios do not demonstrate anything except the author could build a "reasonable safe" vessel. It does not provide evidence for animal magic, gods flooding the Earth.
We do however have evidence that all biblical myths were borrowed from older cultures. Including Noah, creations stories, Yahweh vs sea monsters and so on.
There may be accurate details of ship building in a Greek Epic. This does not mean Zeus or whatever gods are in the story are real.
This is the 3rd time I have explained this.

Size and shape of the ark -
Your source is an apologetics site. Not a historical site on the history of ship building? Ship building was a highly important craft in these days. The Greek navy had ships that could outperform any others from the time and the Persians had massive battle ships. If you look into ship building 3 ratios do not come even close to telling the picture of how well crafted a ship actually is. They clearly knew how to build reasonable safe ships and those 3 ratios were involved at that time. Who cares? Does not prove a world flood, a god flooding Earth, the reality of one nations God?

The flood evidence you provided was animals in permafrost which I debunked as being from a flood.
Mammals are found in permafrost dating 10,000 years old as well as 50,000 years old and older.
The flood was not 40,000 years long. So clearly even if there was a flood not all the animals in the permafrost were put there because of a flood. So since we know it does not require a flood to get animals into a permafrost then it is no longer evidence for a flood.
I already explained this. Two times.
Also ALL geologists demonstrate many lines of evidence that there never was a worldwide flood. They have investigated this for decades. Zero evidence. So, no flood.

But if the entire scientific community is on consensus - no world flood - and you evidence is a myth from ancient cultures then you have lost.
There are thousands of shared myths. One popular myth is about a boy with plant-like plumes on his head who plays with a child and then asks the child to kill him and bury him and take care of the site. Of course then trees grow giving the boy and his family food from the tree. This myth pops up in an unusually large number of cultures. But do you think there may have been boys walking around with plumes growing out of their heads who grew into fruit trees? No. Myths do not suggest a literal event. The flood story is about change and starting new phases of life. So shared myths mean shared symbolism not shared magical stories.
A common source - YES. Is it a allegorical fiction - YES.

in Psalms 104 - your evidence is a passage in a myth? Sorry, as biblical archeologist William Denvers says the OT is not historical. These are stories.
But we already know these mountains were not caused by flood. If you think because a myth says something which means the consensus of all modern geologists and related scientists are wrong then you are living in a fantasy world.

Mountains are not caused by water. Stories about how the earth changed in a wildly fictitious and clearly made-up religious mythology is not evidence. Demonstrate this God exists first.

Clams - As scientists know, when the continantia shifts and ice ages caused mountain formation some items from the sea were deposited on mountains. Or sea floors were pushed up to be mountains. Again, no evidence for this flood, not an option.

Chinese myth -
Yes they had a flood myth also, written around 2200 BCE. The "8" in Chinese characters referring to Noah sounds like some Christian propaganda, it looks like it just might be that:
Noah's Ark




All of those other Gods are also myth. Some of the impregnations in the stories are no different than what happened to Mary, a divine pregnancy. Yahweh interacted with Mary in some magic way and gave her an offspring.
In the Persian religion where much of the OT came from Zoroaster appeared as a leaf which a cow ate and then the mother Dughda drank the milk from the cow and was pregnant. She gave birth to (guess who?) a messiah son who would save the world in 3 incarnations or 3 comings.

In Enoch angels are having sex with humans also.
Of course the fictional story is going to paint a grim picture of the world right before the sky-god destroys humanity? What would you expect? This is typical myth writing.

But when anthropologists and archeologists look at other cultures around this time we see the same practices, burying of the dead, a strong religious system of deities, prayer, sin forgiveness through magic blood atonement (animal sacrifice), strong family values, farming/trading, legal systems mixed with myths. The world wasn't all crazy like the one Israelite myths says it was. That is for dramatic effect. None of the stories in the OT have shown to be accurate.

And science confirms there was simply no world flood. Fiction is not a source. The world serpent story was also popular. No serpent flying around the Earth. None of this is even remotely evidence for a myth being actually true.
How long would it take 1 man to build a ship of this size and loads it with animals?
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
It is logical that there is one true God and all the other gods are man-made.
Your logic is strange.

If there were only cars in the junkyard it would be logical that all cars are in the junkyard.

If all the chocolates in the box are chocolate it's logical all chocolates are chocolates.

If all the fish swam one way it's logical all the fish swim one way.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
No Messenger or Message given by God has ever compeled any person to accept God's Laws.
So when Moses gave the people the laws that God had given him, they were not compelled to keep them?

No one is obligated to follow the law, but we do end up reaping what we sow.
What good is a law if it is unenforced? Especially if the law has supposedly come from God? But, if we believe the Bible, God did enforce his laws.

For me It is the age old cop out to blame those that try, but may not always succeed as the reason one has not tried themselves.
Well that's the Tony way to look at it. The other way to see it is how many religious people, including preachers and other religious leaders, talk a good story, and act all holier than thou, but then they end up breaking the laws of their religion.

The capacity is given to all mankind. Thus why do we still choose to ignore God's Messenger and the Laws given for this age?
We're talking about the "new" race of men. God did make manifestations that could hear him and obey him. And, in the future, will make it possible for this new race of men to obey him. But, right now, God is happy with letting people stumble and fall and to continually fail to be able to obey him and keep his laws. Or, these laws never did come from God but were manmade.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
So when Moses gave the people the laws that God had given him, they were not compelled to keep them?

There is no compulsion in religion. Muhammad made that clear.

What good is a law if it is unenforced? Especially if the law has supposedly come from God? But, if we believe the Bible, God did enforce his laws.

The law is enforced by those that accept the Message into their lives. It eventually becomes the Law of Nations and in the times to come, it will be embraced globally.

Our neglect of the law is the punishment we bring upon ourselves. God knows what we need, and if we neglect the remedy, there is no one else to blame but our selves.

We're talking about the "new" race of men. God did make manifestations that could hear him and obey him. And, in the future, will make it possible for this new race of men to obey him. But, right now, God is happy with letting people stumble and fall and to continually fail to be able to obey him and keep his laws. Or, these laws never did come from God but were manmade.

The new race of men started in 1844 and is slowly building. It takes a while for the mind of man to find a mature outlook with a new Law, as the law is given in a time when most laws of God have been forgotten and long left neglected.

Each day the Old World Order is rolling up and a new one is rolling out in its stead. There will soon come a time when the growth and fruiting of the new world order will overtake the old.

Regards Tony
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Typically, Baha'i and Christians don't talk about these things. Man's concepts of religion have been evolving. But it very much seems to be man coming up with these ideas, not God revealing them.

Yes men come up with the ideas. They seem to think it's logical to assume one version is the "real god"?
Since they all have terrible evidence it's logical to assume none of them are correct.
But what's weird is the one with the worst evidence is the version they support?

The book they push as supporting the evidence actually completely fails in all 3 ways they say a messiah must demonstrate. If you point it out they won't speak to you any longer and will not explain why the evidence asked for in the book is never met?

If logic led to any religion then it would lead people who follow logic to that religion.
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
How long would it take 1 man to build a ship of this size and loads it with animals?
He had a family to help I guess.
Of course once you get to the animal thing now you need to invoke magic beings. Why the Gods didn't just erase all other humans and spare the trillions of already surviving members of the animal kingdom, insects, plants..?
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
He had a family to help I guess.
Of course once you get to the animal thing now you need to invoke magic beings. Why the Gods didn't just erase all other humans and spare the trillions of already surviving members of the animal kingdom, insects, plants..?
Why indeed!!!!
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
The new race of men started in 1844 and is slowly building. It takes a while for the mind of man to find a mature outlook with a new Law, as the law is given in a time when most laws of God have been forgotten and long left neglected.

Each day the Old World Order is rolling up and a new one is rolling out in its stead. There will soon come a time when the growth and fruiting of the new world order will overtake the old.

Regards Tony
Does that New Race include WW2, WW1, Stalin, Hitler, Holocaust, Mao, and a whole lot more of the world's worse murderers?

Were they all part of gods plan?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Does that New Race include WW2, WW1, Stalin, Hitler, Holocaust, Mao, and a whole lot more of the world's worse murderers?

Were they all part of gods plan?

Baha'u'llah warned the Rulers of the earth what would result from the neglect of the Message He gave from God. The things you mention all result from rejection of that Message.

He wrote to the German Ruler of the time and told him what was required, here is a short link to a brief summary;

Baha’u’llah Warns Germany, Russia--and the Pope

When that message was rejected Baha'u'llah warned of what would come;

".. O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and ye shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory." – ibid, p. 53.

That was the 1st and 2nd world wars and we know there is a big global event to come, to which Baha'u'llah has said it was not right to disclose at that time, so hang on, the world will be shaken again on a global scale.

Maybe we might listen after the next global event, Covid-19 is but a ripple of what will come.

So carry on as you see fit, it is for you decide if you accept what Baha'u'llah offered and become part of the new race of men, or if you are happy with the old world order way of things.

I can only show what I have chosen and beleive is the path to the salvation of all humanity, and not a self based path.

Another short link
Baha’u’llah’s Announcement – and Warnings – to the Kings

Regards Tony
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
Baha'u'llah warned the Rulers of the earth what would result from the neglect of the Message He gave from God. The things you mention all result from rejection of that Message.

He wrote to the German Ruler of the time and told him what was required, here is a short link to a brief summary;

Baha’u’llah Warns Germany, Russia--and the Pope

When that message was rejected Baha'u'llah warned of what would come;

".. O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and ye shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory." – ibid, p. 53.

That was the 1st and 2nd world wars and we know there is a big global event to come, to which Baha'u'llah has said it was not right to disclose at that time, so hang on, the world will be shaken again on a global scale.

Maybe we might listen after the next global event, Covid-19 is but a ripple of what will come.

So carry on as you see fit, it is for you decide if you accept what Baha'u'llah offered and become part of the new race of men, or if you are happy with the old world order way of things.

I can only show what I have chosen and beleive is the path to the salvation of all humanity, and not a self based path.

Another short link
Baha’u’llah’s Announcement – and Warnings – to the Kings

Regards Tony
Twentieth Century Atlas - Top Ranked Atrocities

Proves Bahaullah didn't have a clue and his New Race of Men was nowhere to be seen.
 
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