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Are Religions and Gods manmade?

joelr

Well-Known Member
Facts are facts and the facts of history and geography show that the coming of Baha'u'llah fulfilled the Bible prophecies for the return of Christ and the Jewish Messiah, as was clearly demonstrated in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears.


Seems to be one Baptist preacher who claimed Jesus would return on this date among the dozens and dozens of other predicted days some supported by large groups of believers.
The book however is mostly anecdotal nonsense:


"This book leaves a lot to be desired in the fact checking category. Almost none of the supposed factual information given by Mr. Sears is verifiable, and some of it is just plain made up. But then, what book about religion isn't? Half-truths and lies to glorify a charlatan that claimed divinity. What could be verified as accurate were the verses from the bible that supposedly mean something, but since it is a single source, it's not exactly trustworthy as a source, being that there are so many different versions of the bible to cross-reference against... Don't waste your time with this pseudo-scientific drivel. Mr. Sears has a lot to learn about critical thinking, and fact checking, and for a reporter, that should have been taught to him in Journalism 101. "
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The book however is mostly anecdotal nonsense:

"This book leaves a lot to be desired in the fact checking category. Almost none of the supposed factual information given by Mr. Sears is verifiable, and some of it is just plain made up. But then, what book about religion isn't? Half-truths and lies to glorify a charlatan that claimed divinity. What could be verified as accurate were the verses from the bible that supposedly mean something, but since it is a single source, it's not exactly trustworthy as a source, being that there are so many different versions of the bible to cross-reference against... Don't waste your time with this pseudo-scientific drivel. Mr. Sears has a lot to learn about critical thinking, and fact checking, and for a reporter, that should have been taught to him in Journalism 101. "
What is the Source of that quote?

Geography not verifiable?

Isaiah 35 King James Version (KJV)

35 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.


Above Haifa, Israel, stands Mt. Carmel, proclaiming the Glory of the Lord has come.

 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
What is the Source of that quote?

Geography not verifiable?

Isaiah 35 King James Version (KJV)

35 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.


Above Haifa, Israel, stands Mt. Carmel, proclaiming the Glory of the Lord has come.
Amazon.com: Customer reviews: Thief in the Night, The Case of the Missing Millennium

Paying for a monument doesn't prove a thing.
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
I never said that it was proof, only that it fulfilled the OT prophecies.
Someone would have to be blind not to see that, blinded by their own religious beliefs.

Of course there are many many more prophecies fulfilled by the coming of Baha'u'llah, that was just one obvious example.
Get your head out of bibles of written 1,000s of years ago or 100s. Both have no meaning in today's world.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
What is the Source of that quote?

Geography not verifiable?

Isaiah 35 King James Version (KJV)

35 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.


Above Haifa, Israel, stands Mt. Carmel, proclaiming the Glory of the Lord has come.



Oh my gosh. First of all the scripture doesn't mean a garden would just be built there? It's a nice metaphor completely rendered obsolete by the Baha'i thought? Even if it was literal, a foundation with a bunch of money builds a garden on a hill with the same name as a Biblical place? That isn't a prophecy coming true?
There is a garden sitting there. No "lame will walk again and deaf will hear" or anything. A garden? That's what you think the "glory of the Lord" is?
Anyways it's a metaphor about how everything will be transformed:


"The glory of Lebanon - The glory or ornament of Lebanon was its cedars (see the note at Isaiah 10:34). The sense here is, that the change would be as great under the blessings of the Messiah's reign as if there should be suddenly transferred to the waste wilderness the majesty and glory of mount Lebanon.

The excellency of Carmel - Carmel was emblematic of beauty, as Lebanon was of majesty, and as Sharon was of fertility. For a description of Carmel, see the note at Isaiah 29:17; of Sharon, see the note at Isaiah 33:9. The sense is clear. The blessings of the times of the Messiah would be as great, compared with what had existed before, as if the desert were made as lovely as Carmel, and as fertile as Sharon. The world that, in regard to comfort, intelligence, and piety, might be cormpared to a pathless desert, would be like the beauty of Carmel and the fertility of Sharon.

Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field. Lebanon, the wild forest, shall become smiling garden-ground, while garden-ground shall revert into wild uncultivated forest. An inversion of the moral condition of Judaea is shadowed forth by the metaphor."


Ah, inversions and metaphors. Again I demonstrate that while just stories the Bible is far greater poetry than these modern myths.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Get your head out of bibles of written 1,000s of years ago or 100s. Both have no meaning in today's world.
The Bible... as if she and other Baha'is take it seriously. Creation, the flood, the resurrection etc, she has called "just" stories. Yes, unless a conservative Christian, most of us agree with her. So why take the "prophesies" seriously? They don't. Only verses that support their interpretation. Things that say the Messiah will return to Jerusalem or Mt. Zion or the Mt. of Olives, if not ignored, are reinterpreted to really mean Mt. Carmel.

The Appearance of Lord Kalki, the Avatar or incarnation of Godhead, is foretold in the Srimad Bhagavatam 12th Canto and described also in detail in the Brahmanda-purana. Therein it gives predictions as to where he will appear (the village name), who his parents will be, what his mission will be, and when he will appear. But Jesus and the Bible are not the only religion in which Baha'u'llah has supposedly fulfilled prophecies. Here's the Kalki Avatar from Hinduism....

It is described that he will appear at the conjunction of the two yugas, namely at the end of Kali-yuga and the beginning of Satya-yuga. The great cycle of the four yugas, namely Satya, Treta, Dvapara and Kali, rotates like the calendar months. The present age of Kali-yuga lasts 432,000 years, out of which we have passed only 5,000 years after the Battle of Kuruksetra and the end of the regime of King Pariksit. So there are 427,000 years balance yet to be finished, till the advent of Lord Kalki. Therefore at the end of this period, the incarnation of Kalki will take place, as foretold in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. The name of His father, Visnu Yasa, a learned brahmana, and the village Sambhala are also mentioned.
We know when and where and his parents. Baha'is still try to interpret this to fit Baha'u'llah. And they do it with Maitreya, the return of Buddha. But, like Bill Sears, they are only "ordinary" people. They are not the "infallible" prophet. So anything they say is just their guess and their interpretation. And, as with the Bible, it is their finding of verses that seem to fit into the Baha'i story, and are, therefore, made into a prophecy. And why do they think they need to do this? As proof... to show that their guy is legitimate and foretold in all the Holy Books of all religions. Yet, TB always comes back with that it's not "really" proof. Then what is it? Nothing but out of context verses that need a little creative interpretation to make into "fulfilled" prophecies?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
35 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.
They are talking of Lebenon and not Haifa, Israel. What is so glorious about a man-made garden. There are thousands of gardens much more beautiful than that. See the garden in our President's House. We call it the Moghul Garden. That too is beautiful. Perhaps the best that we have is in Mysore. BTW, Indian soldiers saved Haifa from the Germans.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Mog...mg&ei=HQ2xX6azF8LmyAOGloCACA&bih=794&biw=1600
Brindavan Garden in Mysore:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Mys...mg&ei=HQ2xX6azF8LmyAOGloCACA&bih=794&biw=1600
Chashm-e-Shahi Garden in Srinagar, Kashmir:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Cha...mg&ei=tQ2xX_P6O8OG9QOP6LSADg&bih=794&biw=1600
 

PAUL MARKHAM

Well-Known Member
The Bible... as if she and other Baha'is take it seriously. Creation, the flood, the resurrection etc, she has called "just" stories. Yes, unless a conservative Christian, most of us agree with her. So why take the "prophesies" seriously? They don't. Only verses that support their interpretation. Things that say the Messiah will return to Jerusalem or Mt. Zion or the Mt. of Olives, if not ignored, are reinterpreted to really mean Mt. Carmel.

The Appearance of Lord Kalki, the Avatar or incarnation of Godhead, is foretold in the Srimad Bhagavatam 12th Canto and described also in detail in the Brahmanda-purana. Therein it gives predictions as to where he will appear (the village name), who his parents will be, what his mission will be, and when he will appear. But Jesus and the Bible are not the only religion in which Baha'u'llah has supposedly fulfilled prophecies. Here's the Kalki Avatar from Hinduism....

It is described that he will appear at the conjunction of the two yugas, namely at the end of Kali-yuga and the beginning of Satya-yuga. The great cycle of the four yugas, namely Satya, Treta, Dvapara and Kali, rotates like the calendar months. The present age of Kali-yuga lasts 432,000 years, out of which we have passed only 5,000 years after the Battle of Kuruksetra and the end of the regime of King Pariksit. So there are 427,000 years balance yet to be finished, till the advent of Lord Kalki. Therefore at the end of this period, the incarnation of Kalki will take place, as foretold in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. The name of His father, Visnu Yasa, a learned brahmana, and the village Sambhala are also mentioned.
We know when and where and his parents. Baha'is still try to interpret this to fit Baha'u'llah. And they do it with Maitreya, the return of Buddha. But, like Bill Sears, they are only "ordinary" people. They are not the "infallible" prophet. So anything they say is just their guess and their interpretation. And, as with the Bible, it is their finding of verses that seem to fit into the Baha'i story, and are, therefore, made into a prophecy. And why do they think they need to do this? As proof... to show that their guy is legitimate and foretold in all the Holy Books of all religions. Yet, TB always comes back with that it's not "really" proof. Then what is it? Nothing but out of context verses that need a little creative interpretation to make into "fulfilled" prophecies?
TBs problem is she keeps quoting from old books as if it makes a difference. Then tells people this.

I said that people who are still talking about the Bible are not going to solve anything because the solutions to today's problems are not in the Bible.

Bahaullah uses old books to justify his claim to be a messenger. It seems the solution is in the bible, not in the bible as it suits their fake guru.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
They are talking of Lebanon and not Haifa, Israel.
No, they are not talking about Lebanon. The prophecy says: "the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it." It does not say that Lebanon will see the glory of the Lord. It says "Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord."

Isaiah 35 King James Version (KJV)

35 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.

Regarding: "the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it."

The Shrine of Bahá’u’lláh, the sanctuary where he is buried, is a place of great beauty and peace. It lies in the centre of a giant circle with many walks leading to it. This land was once an arid desert, but now it blossoms out in splendour. It is perfumed by rose, hyacinth, jasmine and geranium. Smooth white stones from the Sea of Galilee make a pathway directly to the door of his Shrine. Three hills carpeted in crimson shelter his sanctuary from wind and storm. These sacred Shrines are surrounded by cedars of Lebanon, fir trees, pine trees, cypress, box, and olive trees.

Isaiah had foretold:

“… his rest shall be glorious.” (Isaiah 11:10)

In still another chapter, Isaiah prophesies: “… the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee.” (Isaiah 60:1)

and a few verses later he foresees the following:

“The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious.” (Isaiah 60:13).

Bahá’u’lláh’s name means ‘the Glory of the Lord’. The place of his ‘rest’ had been made glorious, as well as the place where his feet had walked. Isaiah also prophesies:

“I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry lands springs of water. “I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the ****tah tree and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together:

“That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the Lord hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.”
(Isaiah 41:18–20)

I also uncovered the prophecies that foretold that when ‘the Glory of God’ that ‘Holy One’ of Israel returned to Zion, there would be changes of climate, and that the arid would become green. In that day when His ‘rest’ and ‘sanctuary’ would be ‘beautified’, the water would flow where the desert once held sway.

A survey of the early development of modern Israel disclosed the following report: “Even the climatic conditions of Palestine (Israel) are now showing marked improvement. In 1927 the Pools of Solomon, dry for centuries, began to overflow. At that time the High Commissioner of Palestine was asked to declare a day of public thanksgiving to come for this seeming miracle. The pools were measured and found to contain approximately sixty million gallons. In Bible times there were two copious rainy seasons in Palestine, the “early and the later rain”. But for the past many centuries the “early rains” have been scant; while the “later rains” and the dews had disappeared completely. But now these have returned to gladden the land, with the result that some parts of Palestine now yield two or three crops a year.” (Zionism in Prophecy, F. Hudgings, 1936, pp. 55–56).

Thus the prophecy of Joel was fulfilled:

“… he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.” (Joel 2:23)

Also the prophecy of Zechariah:

“Thus saith the Lord, I am returned unto Zion … I will not be unto the residue of this people as in the former days … the heavens shall give their dew; and I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things.” (Zechariah 8:3, 11–12)

There in the sandy desert of the plain of ‘Akká, as long ago as 1878, a fountain splashed and gurgled in the midst of Bahá’u’lláh’s garden. Fresh water flowed in abundance to the arid land that now nourishes the beautiful green lawns, trees and flowers in both ‘Akká and on the side of Mount Carmel in Haifa, even as Isaiah had prophesied:

“… in the wilderness shall waters break out and streams in the desert. “And the parched ground shall become a pool, and the thirsty land springs of water.” (Isaiah 35:6–7)

In this same chapter, Isaiah again prophesies that these wonders shall take place in Israel when Carmel and Sharon shall see ‘the Glory of the Lord’.

From: William Sears, Thief in the Night, pp. 162-164

Even if there was absolutely no other proof of who Baha'u'llah was, the book Thief in the Night by William Sears would be ample proof for anyone who "claims" to believe in the Bible, but if people want to deny the reality of history and geography just so they can continue to wait for Jesus or their Messiah they can do so because they have free will. Baha'u'llah has no need for their belief, nor does God does need for their belief, since God has no needs whatsoever.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
TBs problem is she keeps quoting from old books as if it makes a difference. Then tells people this.

I said that people who are still talking about the Bible are not going to solve anything because the solutions to today's problems are not in the Bible.

Bahaullah uses old books to justify his claim to be a messenger. It seems the solution is in the bible, not in the bible as it suits their fake guru.
Lol, :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Baha'u'llah NEVER used the Bible to justify His claim to be a Messenger, never, but even if He did, that would not mean that the solution to today's problems is in the Bible. Clearly it isn't, because if it was, those problems would have been solved a long, long time ago, since we have had the Bible for almost 2000 years. There is nothing in the Bible that will solve today's problems, nothing, because the Bible was written for another dispensation, another age.

The ONLY reason I even mention the Bible prophecies is because other people do not accept the evidence that Baha'u'llah told them to look at, as follows:

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

But as I said to Aupmanyav:

Even if there was absolutely no other proof of who Baha'u'llah was, the book Thief in the Night by William Sears would be ample proof for anyone who "claims" to believe in the Bible, but if people want to deny the reality of history and geography just so they can continue to wait for Jesus or their Messiah they can do so because they have free will. Baha'u'llah has no need for their belief, nor does God does need for their belief, since God has no needs whatsoever.
#970 Trailblazer, 3 minutes ago
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The Shrine of Bahá’u’lláh, the sanctuary where he is buried, is a place of great beauty and peace.
There are millions of places of great peace and beauty around the world. A man-made mausoleum with a man-made garden around is nothing before them. Why are you writing pages and pages about prophecies. I do not believe in any of them. I have been around many places of peace and beauty and I am sure you too. See some of them here. Can your Iranian preacher's mausoleum compare with them?

great natural beauty - Google Search
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
There are millions of places of great peace and beauty around the world. A man-made mausoleum with a man-made garden around is nothing before them. Why are you writing pages and pages about prophecies. I do not believe in any of them. I have been around many places of peace and beauty and I am sure you too. See some of them here. Can your Iranian preacher's mausoleum compare with them?

great natural beauty - Google Search
That's not the point. The point is that the prophecies were fulfilled by specific things that happened.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
No, they are not talking about Lebanon. The prophecy says: "the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it." It does not say that Lebanon will see the glory of the Lord. It says "Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord."

Isaiah 35 King James Version (KJV)

35 The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the Lord, and the excellency of our God.

Regarding: "the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it."

The Shrine of Bahá’u’lláh, the sanctuary where he is buried, is a place of great beauty and peace. It lies in the centre of a giant circle with many walks leading to it. This land was once an arid desert, but now it blossoms out in splendour. It is perfumed by rose, hyacinth, jasmine and geranium. Smooth white stones from the Sea of Galilee make a pathway directly to the door of his Shrine. Three hills carpeted in crimson shelter his sanctuary from wind and storm. These sacred Shrines are surrounded by cedars of Lebanon, fir trees, pine trees, cypress, box, and olive trees.
Isaiah has nothing to do with a garden someone built. It's a passage bout how when the 2nd coming happens everything will be radically transformed. The lame will walk, no negativity, a demigod will be doing miraculous miracles. Carmel and Sharon, as already pointed out are metaphors for how everything will be.
There is no prophecy being fulfilled until the Earth changes and a magic demigod unites the world with healings and god-power.
"Parched ground will become a pool" Not a garden some rich people erected to bug poor people but EVERY PARCHED GROUND will provide water for those thirsty.
Deaf people will sing, no negativity, all kinds of miracles are predicted. his prophecy has not happened.
During Messiah’s reign on earth the whole world is to become like a flourishing garden and this will offer encouragement to the weak. Perfect temperature, all nature, on EARTH.

And of all the debates by scholars about the 2nd coming only one person decided it was 1844 and it was just his numerology translation.
Millerism - Wikipedia
This prophecy included the Earths destruction by fire. So that is weak. Well also the 1st coming is a story that is fiction, so that's an issue.



"Verses 35:1-10: The prophet Isaiah now turns to a message of hope for the future. After the great destruction of the Tribulation period will come the blessing of the millennial age when the desert “shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose.”

In the Messiah’s kingdom, all spiritual evil and physical catastrophe will be reversed and the land and people will be blessed. “Carmel and Sharon,” the normally fertile regions of Israel, though devastated by the Battle of Armageddon, will once again be fertile and productive.

One day they will blossom more beautifully than the cedar forests of “Lebanon.” The “highway” is contrasted to the desolate desert and its endless maze of shifting sands. It will be the “way of holiness” and will be reserved for the “ransomed” and “redeemed” of the Tribulation period who will enter the millennial kingdom.

Verses 1-4: In contrast to luxuriant Edom that is to become as desert (34:1-17), during Messiah’s reign on earth the whole world is to become like a flourishing garden and this will offer encouragement to the weak.

"It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, [and] the excellency of our God."

“Lebanon … Carmel and Sharon”: Areas near the sea noted for their agricultural fertility. “They will see”: Israel is to recognize the earth’s newfound fruitfulness as coming from the Lord and attribute to Him the appropriate credit.

The church of the Lord Jesus Christ has been delivered from the troubles of the world during the wrath of God on the earth. We see them now, dancing and singing, rejoicing in the Lord. The glory of the LORD will be upon the earth in the presence of God's people at this time.

Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

During this reign of Jesus as King, the devil will be chained. There will be nothing harmful, or negative at all. The weather will be perfect. The crops will grow abundantly. The Light of the world will be present. All of nature will be operating in cooperation with Jesus our King. Even the temperature will be perfect.

This is speaking of the 1,000 year Sabbath of rest for the Christian that is spoken of as the Millennium reign of Jesus Christ upon the earth. The six 1,000 year days have ended and the one 1,000 year day of Sabbath is here.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
First - "The practical upper limit on radiocarbon dating is about 50,000 years, because so little C-14 remains after almost 9 half-lives that it may be hard to detect and obtain an accurate reading, regardless of the size of the sample. ."
Not 5000 years.
But cosmic radiation goes through ebbs depending on magnetic fields, the sun and other factors, there are always events like supernova causing cosmic radiation to hit Earth.

How you think this even matters is a mystery? Besides that the radiocarbon dating is accurate even if it wasn't all of the geological markers for a worldwide flood say no flood. Your evidence is a fictive story. It does not matter if we did not understand how all animals ended up in a permafrost? We know it did not happen because an ice God waved a wand and made it happen or from a magic God-induced flood. These are myths.





Uh, permafrost is ground frozen for at least 2 years. So, ya, after a thaw more animals could die and become frozen. That actually completely debunks that entire line of argument.




Well as we see thawing permafrost is frequent enough to cause immediate harm to humans nearby:
"Thawing permafrost can have dramatic impacts on our planet and the things living on it. For example:


  • Many northern villages are built on permafrost. When permafrost is frozen, it’s harder than concrete. However, thawing permafrost can destroy houses, roads and other infrastructure.
  • When permafrost is frozen, plant material in the soil—called organic carbon—can’t decompose, or rot away. As permafrost thaws, microbes begin decomposing this material. This process releases greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide and methane to the atmosphere.
  • When permafrost thaws, so do ancient bacteria and viruses in the ice and soil. These newly-unfrozen microbes could make humans and animals very sick. Scientists have discovered microbes more than 400,000 years old in thawed permafrost.
What Is Permafrost?





Since permafrost obviously can thaw and any animal can die and become frozen when it freezes over this isn't a mystery. However, even if it were a total mystery this doesn't make a mythic flood any more possible. It would simply be a reason we don't yet know.
Floods are ruled out. Frozen animals do not trump a long list of geological proofs of no worldwide flood.






There already is an explanation for side canyons, smaller rivers.
https://knowablemagazine.org/article/physical-world/2019/deeper-understanding-grand-canyon

Again, without even looking into where the sediment is, an unanswered question in science does not mean one can import obvious myths as the answer. I could say the World Serpent eats sediment and that explains it and proves the serpent was real.




No, not one thing you have presented is evidence for a flood. They are evidences of things not yet understood or evidence of permafrost thawing, side rivers, human ship builders already knowing 3 ratios...





There is no such thing as a secular scientist. Scientists follow evidence as presented. If something is unknown then they simply say it's unknown. If something looks like it could possible be related to a supernatural event, they say "wow look at this interesting mystery!"
That is very rare. But they have tried. Years of studying remote viewing, random generators and conscious effecting outcomes, ll types of experiments. Dean radin talks about many of them. Ultimately they cannot be re-produced by outside teams which is the next step.
Now Biblical myths, no, do we study for evidence of Krishna or Zeus? I don't even know if you know what you are saying here? As science progresses most of these "I don't know" become known.

If you just said "God magic did it" then you stop learning. But you do have to study the magic? So where is that? are you fine with medical science? Because fundamentalists centuries ago would rather we just stick with prayer. Should our medical field be prayer? Or should we work with what we have - people, drugs, procedures, illness, pathology, technology? Why should any other science be different?



Would you expect a team of scientists who found a large hole in India to start arguing over if this was caused by the power of Krishna, Shakti, or was it Brahman? Each had their own theory. You would want them to investigate it from a geologist framework.
Your myths are no different or in any way special. They are borrowed stories from Mesopotamia. There have been thousands of Gods, every natural discovery could have been an action from one of these Gods? So should we endlessly speculate on which possible magic could have caused this or should scientists continue to work with the natural world and make incredible, yearly progress in every field?

Meanwhile the realm of magic, sorcerors and Gods has produced no actual evidence to test or even confirm it's existence.

Also archeologists have shown places and events in the OT are usually much exagerrated, enlarged or didn't likely happen.





JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Well, the cutting up and burial and then growing of the plant world, the world of the plant that you eat being already a cut up dead body, is the dominant motif, I would say, in the most of the tales. It occurs all over the place, particularly in the Pacific cultures and in the Americas.

BILL MOYERS: Tell me that story of the origin of maize, as Longfellow borrowed it from the Chippewas, didn’t he, or the Algonquins?

JOSEPH CAMPBELL: Well, it’s an Algonquian story, and it is simply of the boy in his vision, he sees a young man come to him with plumes on his head, and green and so forth, and visitant invites the young man to a wrestling match, and allows him to win. He wins and wins, this happens three or four times; but he tells him, “The last time I come, you must kill me and bury me, and take care of the place where you will have buried me.” And the boy then in the last one actually does what he has been told to do, plants the man, the visitant, and in time comes back and sees the com growing. And it was a boy who had been concerned for his father, who was a hunter but old, and he was thinking, isn’t there some other way to get food besides this one. And so it came to him out of his intentions. A lovely story.

Ep. 4: Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth -- 'Sacrifice and Bliss' | BillMoyers.com


"it occurs all over the place, particularly in the Pacific cultures and in the Americas."




There is no other evidence and 3 ratios is not evidence. In 1000 BCE the Egyptians and Persians were master ship builders and had incredible navys. The Israelites came from Canaan but before that they were Egyptians. Ship building knowledge was around and not at all proof of a message from a God. It's only evidence of one thing - religious syncretism, borrowing of stories from older societies and incorporating it into your own religion.

Your explanation of ‘recurring permafrost’ would not account for the many species of fauna, thought to be from different eras, scientists have discovered in such fine preservation! (Any thawing would destroy it.)
So....that throws that argument out.

And you indicate it was rivers that formed those merging side canyons to the Grand Canyon?
Then pray tell, where are / what were their sources? Rivers don’t appear out of nowhere! And they must’ve been huge!
Sorry, but that doesn’t ‘hold water’. Pardon the pun. Lol.

And then this gem....
“There’s no such thing as a secular scientist “? !

Huh? Do you know the word? There’s quite a few secular ones!

On that note, I’m done.
I’m just gonna post each Flood-supporting fact, separately. Maybe in a different thread.


Take care, my cousin.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Your explanation of ‘recurring permafrost’ would not account for the many species of fauna, thought to be from different eras, scientists have discovered in such fine preservation! (Any thawing would destroy it.)
So....that throws that argument out.

1) because PF thaws that doesn't mean everything in it thaws. Temperatures can rise enough to PF to thaw while plants inside may be exposed to air, they remain frozen.
2) Provide some actual research done on PF to show that any frozen plants or animals can only happen around the time of a mythic biblical flood. Demonstrate no other plants or animals could ever be frozen at any other time.
3)Show proof that if a plant thaws then it would be destroyed.
4) Never mind because I'll show you that thawing does not even destroy a 30,000 year old plant.
-In 2012, Russian researchers proved that permafrost can serve as a natural repository for ancient life forms by reviving of Silene stenophylla from 30,000 year.......This is the oldest plant tissue ever revived. The plant was fertile, producing white flowers and viable seeds. The study demonstrated that tissue can survive ice preservation for tens of thousands of years.

Permafrost - Wikipedia

So not only have you failed to tie permafrost to a mythic story your own version of the argument is based on crank.
The Russian people in that region may say that an ice God often freezes plants and animals into permafrost.
Provide evidence that your God who flooded the Earth is real.

And you indicate it was rivers that formed those merging side canyons to the Grand Canyon?
Then pray tell, where are / what were their sources? Rivers don’t appear out of nowhere! And they must’ve been huge!
Sorry, but that doesn’t ‘hold water’. Pardon the pun. Lol.

Wow you know where all well springs were up to 70 million years ago?! Geologists are investigating older canyons that may have pre-existed and been cut from older rivers. All of the features of the canyon was a result of rivers.
Formation of the Grand Canyon 5 to 6 million years ago through integration of older palaeocanyons | Nature Geoscience
Geologists have looked into all possible features of flood geology and applied then to the Grand Canyon. They all fail. A flood did not create the canyon.
Oh, also, the flood didn't happen because it's written in a book of fiction. The boy with plumes isn't real, No World-Serpent, Thor, Yahweh or and other sorcerors.

"The geology of the Grand Canyon is known fairly well after nearly one hundred and fifty years of careful field and laboratory studies of the rocks and landscape. In our chapter, Time Frame of Modern Geology, we describe multiple, sequential scenes in the history of the canyon with abundant illustrations and photographs. The geological evidence, only a fraction of it described here, is overwhelmingly inconsistent with flood geology – that strata were deposited in the span of less than one year during a global, diluvial catastrophe. Despite the claims of flood geologists, the rocks reveal multiple episodes of deposition and intervening periods of erosion. Every sedimentary formation can easily be explained by analogy to modern depositional environments, such as the open sea, coastlines, estuaries, and sand deserts. The condition and distribution of fossils in the strata do not reflect the rapid burial of sea animals and small land animals out of deep, turbulent water. Flood geologists have failed to conceive a physical model for catastrophic formation that is consistent with the real geology of the Grand Canyon."
Flood Geology and the Grand Canyon: What Does the Evidence Really Say? - Articles

And then this gem....
“There’s no such thing as a secular scientist “? !

Huh? Do you know the word? There’s quite a few secular ones!

No. There are no scientists who say "ok guys, make sure nobody attribute any science findings to characters in myths!" "Guy's we are SECULAR scientists, we can't be finding all sorts of magic arcs and miracles that have evidence. If any of you find a rod, and it turns into a snake, a talking snake, you throw that thing in the sea and do not mention it to anyone!!!

There are scientists. What supernatural crank they believe or not believe has nothing to do with the work.

But.....there are FUNDAMENTALIST scientists who do work with the intention of proving ancient fiction true. They formed an organization so they could publish papers and say "look I published a peer-reviewed paper". Yet they NEVER pass actual science peer-review.
Scientists do not look for answers based on which God it will prove. They do not care. They publish results, the end.
Have those fundamentalist scientists invented a computer, car, airplane, X-ray, pharma-company to make you medicine when sick and other things you can use? No? So you still use the technology invented by these "secular scientists:?? Huh.

"Hey Bob, is that bone you just dug up glowing with the holy spirit?" Uh, I don't know what's the difference between a bone glowing from regular spirit and one glowing from holy.." "JUST THROW IT IN A RIVER!, don't let anyone know magic is real, us secular scientists can't be finding this stuff!!"

Actually, I just gave you an ENTIRE ARTICLE covering all of the evidence that the GC could have been caused by a flood. Some people decided to take the time, review results and actually see if there was something there to look for. It's not for fundamentalists because they don't want to hear anything except what will help then keep their beliefs in fiction.
So no flood, at the permafrost or at the Grand Canyon. All of your anecdotal evidence is useless.
I'm sure the Russians already have an ice God myth. It's also equally probable to your Middle Eastern myth.


On that note, I’m done.
I’m just gonna post each Flood-supporting fact, separately. Maybe in a different thread.
Oh you have one? I haven't yet seen anything that supports a fictive bronze age story?

Take care, my cousin.

In scholarship it's known The Biblical flood myth is taken from a much older Mesopotamian myth, the creation myth is used then the flood myth.

"The Enuma Elish would later be the inspiration for the Hebrew scribes who created the text now known as the biblical Book of Genesis. Prior to the 19th century CE, the Bible was considered the oldest book in the world and its narratives were thought to be completely original. In the mid-19th century CE, however, European museums, as well as academic and religious institutions, sponsored excavations in Mesopotamia to find physical evidence for historical corroboration of the stories in the Bible. These excavations found quite the opposite, however, in that, once cuneiform was translated, it was understood that a number of biblical narratives were Mesopotamian in origin.
Famous stories such as the Fall of Man and the Great Flood were originally conceived and written down in Sumer, translated and modified later in Babylon, and reworked by the Assyrians before they were used by the Hebrew scribes for the versions which appear in the Bible."


The difference is the Enuma has multiple Gods so the apologetic idea that somehow it was the same but they really meant Yahweh all along is more desparate speculation. The Israelites were not even a people until 1200BCE and while putting together their myths over the next few centuries they used these myths as their basis. Nothing wrong with it. None of the Gods however are real.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
1) because PF thaws that doesn't mean everything in it thaws. Temperatures can rise enough to PF to thaw while plants inside may be exposed to air, they remain frozen.
“Plants”? I’m talking about megafauna, that remained frozen for millennia within the Permafrost. How did they get in it, with many still found upright? Fell?
And you still didn’t account for the origin of all that fresh water , frozen, covering the northern hemisphere....



permafrost can serve as a natural repository for ancient life forms by reviving of Silene stenophylla from 30,000 year.......This is the oldest plant tissue ever revived. The plant was fertile, producing white flowers and viable seeds. The study demonstrated that tissue can survive ice preservation for tens of thousands of years.

Exactly. Some plants were discovered in the mouths of those Mammoths, masticating! Indicating they were quickly frozen.

Wow you know where all well springs were up to 70 million years ago?! Geologists are investigating older canyons that may have pre-existed and been cut from older rivers. All of the features of the canyon was a result of rivers.

Well, they got the water part right. And you believe “springs” can create fast-flowing rivers with the force needed to erode those side canyons? You got more faith than I got.
And just where are those sediments?

“70 million years ago,” huh? But next, you link.....
Formation of the Grand Canyon 5 to 6 million years ago through integration of older palaeocanyons | Nature Geoscience
Geologists have looked into all possible features of flood geology and applied then to the Grand Canyon. They all fail. A flood did not create the canyon.

Now, 5 to 6 million! I gotta laugh.... a couple years back, it was 12 to 15 million years. Before that, it was 20 to 25 myo. And in the early ‘80’s, it was 70 myo!

“....all possible features of flood geology”? Nope....
"The geology of the Grand Canyon is known fairly well after nearly one hundred and fifty years of careful field and laboratory studies of the rocks and landscape. In our chapter, Time Frame of Modern Geology, we describe multiple, sequential scenes in the history of the canyon with abundant illustrations and photographs. The geological evidence, only a fraction of it described here, is overwhelmingly inconsistent with flood geology – that strata were deposited in the span of less than one year”

Here we go again...attacking a straw man. This is attacking an explanation by YEC fundamentalists, whom I don’t agree with. Do you get that? I don’t think so...
Believing the Noachian Flood occurred, does not require belief in a Young Earth! There’s a reason secular scientists equate the two: to stifle discussion.
I never said the Flood deposited the strata. (They were formed millions of years ago.)
But the Flood did cut through those layers; it was the source of the erosion. And it washed away the sediments.


Oh, also, the flood didn't happen because it's written in a book of fiction.

And there’s your problem: engaging in discussion w/ an apriori, faulty assumption.

Secularists at one time said the same when discussing King David...Jericho....King Hezekiah’s tunnel....Pilate....etc., etc., etc.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
“Plants”? I’m talking about megafauna, that remained frozen for millennia within the Permafrost. How did they get in it, with many still found upright? Fell?
And you still didn’t account for the origin of all that fresh water , frozen, covering the northern hemisphere....


Scientists believe at the end of an ice age the rising moisture turned grasslands to bog. Animals starve. Being upright does not matter, land shifts, permafrost is land.
Most icebergs are made of fresh water?
Outside of all this, there is no evidence fro a flood here, that is not an option. The Eskimo legend of a ice monster that freezes animals into permafrost is another great story that could explain these things. Neither that or your arc fiction is an actual candidate for what's happening here.


Exactly. Some plants were discovered in the mouths of those Mammoths, masticating! Indicating they were quickly frozen.
Or they died while eating because large animals eat EVERY SECOND THEY ARE AWAKE to make the 10,0000 calories need from PLANTS?
Water is destructive. A world wide flood would smash living things to mush. Water high enough to reach mountain tops would crush all living things. Bringing enough water to flood the Earth in a short amount of time would result in all life, trees and land to be crushed. ]
But there is no evidence for a flood so that never happened. There are thousands of myths. None of the things in them are real.



Well, they got the water part right. And you believe “springs” can create fast-flowing rivers with the force needed to erode those side canyons? You got more faith than I got.
And just where are those sediments?
Slow moving water will erode all rock. The canyon in question goes back 70 million years. Water is a natural corrosive. A worldwide flood that lasted 40 days would not carve a canyon. It takes millions of years to create canyons.

70 million years ago,” huh? But next, you link.....
Now, 5 to 6 million! I gotta laugh.... a couple years back, it was 12 to 15 million years. Before that, it was 20 to 25 myo. And in the early ‘80’s, it was 70 myo!

Yup.
"
The Colorado River has been carving away rock for the past five to six million years. Remember, the oldest rocks in Grand Canyon are 1.8 billion years old.

The canyon is much younger than the rocks through which it winds. Even the youngest rock layer, the Kaibab Formation, is 270 million years old, many years older than the canyon itself."

The oldest rocks were being formed 70 million years ago from older rivers. The secondary canyon was formed 5-6 million years ago by the Colorado river. This is an incredibly common geological process that we have endless examples of. Except with this one it sort of contradicts a fictional tale you want to be true. Whatever?

“....all possible features of flood geology”? Nope....
Shall I re-list them? They all demonstrate no flood happened.


Here we go again...attacking a straw man. This is attacking an explanation by YEC fundamentalists, whom I don’t agree with. Do you get that? I don’t think so...
Believing the Noachian Flood occurred, does not require belief in a Young Earth! There’s a reason secular scientists equate the two: to stifle discussion.

No no no, I get it. I do not care, Young, Old, Flat, up in the 2nd Firmament. A worldwide flood did not happen and the Mesopotamian story is a make believe story that around 1200BCE Israelite scribes used to make a story for their myths. Yahweh is a myth, herding animals is a myth, and Thor and his hammer is a myth.


I never said the Flood deposited the strata. (They were formed millions of years ago.)
But the Flood did cut through those layers; it was the source of the erosion. And it washed away the sediments.

Flood geology is crank.

"Modern geology, its sub-disciplines and other scientific disciplines utilize the scientific method to analyze the geology of the earth. The key tenets of flood geology are refuted by scientific analysis and do not have any standing in the scientific community.[5][6][7][8][9] Modern geology relies on a number of established principles, one of the most important of which is Charles Lyell's principle of uniformitarianism. In relation to geological forces it states that the shaping of the Earth has occurred by means of mostly slow-acting forces that can be seen in operation today. By applying these principles, geologists have determined that the Earth is approximately 4.54 billion years old. They study the lithosphere of the Earth to gain information on the history of the planet. Geologists divide Earth's history into eons, eras, periods, epochs, and faunal stages characterized by well-defined breaks in the fossil record (see Geologic time scale).[110][111] In general, there is a lack of any evidence for any of the above effects proposed by flood geologists and their claims of fossil layering are not taken seriously by scientists.[112]
"The global flood cannot explain geological formations such as angular unconformities, where sedimentary rocks have been tilted and eroded then more sedimentary layers deposited on top, needing long periods of time for these processes. There is also the time needed for the erosion of valleys in sedimentary rock mountains. In another example, the flood, had it occurred, should also have produced large-scale effects spread throughout the entire world. Erosion should be evenly distributed, yet the levels of erosion in, for example, the Appalachians and the Rocky Mountains differ significantly.[112]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_geology

Geochronology - non flood
Paleontology no flood
Geochemistry - no flood
Sedimentary rock features - no flood






And there’s your problem: engaging in discussion w/ an apriori, faulty assumption.
Secularists at one time said the same when discussing King David...Jericho....King Hezekiah’s tunnel....Pilate....etc., etc., etc.


Your examples favor my side?
Everyone knows that myths/historical fiction will often include real people alongside fictitious Gods?
Yes King David may have been a real king.
Pilate existed but the only connection to Jesus is in the gospels, anonymous and wildly fictitious stories of yet another dying/rising demigod in that region. Matthew and Luke are known to have used Mark as a source (synoptic problem) so are not independent sources.
But the creation myth is also heavily borrowed from older myths and not real.

Nothing in that myth or any other, ever, has been demonstrated to be real. No supernatural phenomena has been demonstrated to be real.
You can visit several Greek cities where Gods were born. Does that mean Apollo is real?
If a King who spoke with Krishna in the Vedic text was real does that mean Krishna was real?

Secularists said if the OT were more myth than history then archaeology would show this. Well that's what it shows.
So my "faulty assumption" stands as an accurate assumption.

Archeology of the Hebrew Bible
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me

Gen 6:17 For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven. Everything that is on the earth shall die.

I believe that gets interpreted as all people on the whole earth and the flood covering the whole earth. However it would also apply to a local flood. So the question is which interpretation is consistent with Science. The answer is a local flood. This is similar to those who interpreted the Bible as saying the earth is flat. The interpretation did not agree with scientific fact.
 
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