Are science and spirituality compatible?

[Ben Dhyan]

Ben, you think every point of view from human's is flawed?

That is true for all people who are interpreting reality conceptually....not that there isn't a place for the conceptual mind...but logically it can't interpret that which it does not understand, nor can it ever in all eternity apprehend that which is beyond 3D time and space. There are however, from time to time humans who become spiritual avatars....but that's another subject altogether....

 

[Ben Dhyan]

We will have to agree to disagree.

It can be used with the supernatural in its meaning, although that is not the modern definition and again, what is supernatural? Every time we think something is supernatural it is later explain with natural explanations so far. There is no evidence of anything unnatural.

To me, I don't believe in organize religion and believe that all religion's are an attempt of humankind to explain things they can't, especially death. It comforts people there is an afterlife and their "self" will be preserved when they die. I believe religion evolved within humankind and you can actually see it in the evolution of religions.

I am still spiritual however. The wonder of the universe is not lost on me, in fact I think its more then spectacular and worth investigation.

"The lesson isn't in the victory, it's in the struggle."
Anonymous

." Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."

Did I use the term 'supernatural' or are erecting a strawman? .....the cosmos is an indivisible one...it is mankind which self identifies with a mortal physical body and then seeing reality through the filter of the limited senses of that body, creates dualistic conceptual language to name perceived apparent differentiated aspects of the universal one.... and this then becomes the basis of human intellectual and scientific knowledge. The truth is, not only can eternity never be comprehended by the human conceptual mind, nor can infinity, which concepts are abstracted attributes of the absolute oneness...call it what you will...

So here are some common terms and their complementary opposites...in truth they are not two separate things, but rather mere differentiated aspects of one. When you see the underlying unity of these apparent separate aspects...destiny is nigh...

Heaven and Earth
Spirit and Matter
Immortal and Mortal
Life and Death.*
Supernatural and Natural

* Note...relativity means that when immortal spirit enters the human elemental form to give it a temporary life, it is a spiritual death..

You are conflating religion with human organized religious institutions... If you know the Latin root and prefix of 'religion', you know it means to reconnect, to retie, to reunite,,,the same meaning as 'yoga',,,union...

It is difficult to have a serious discussion with you if you are not precise in your understanding of words...you can't be a spiritual person because spirit is immaterial, unless you really did mean to convey to me that the elemental body labelled Shawn is not actually you, but rather the incarnate spirit which is one with the omnipresent Cosmic spirit.

Art is for a long time
Life is for a short time
So leave your mark
It's your art of life... anon

 

[shawn001]

Did I use the term 'supernatural' or are erecting a strawman? .....the cosmos is an indivisible one...it is mankind which self identifies with a mortal physical body and then seeing reality through the filter of the limited senses of that body, creates dualistic conceptual language to name perceived apparent differentiated aspects of the universal one.... and this then becomes the basis of human intellectual and scientific knowledge. The truth is, not only can eternity never be comprehended by the human conceptual mind, nor can infinity, which concepts are abstracted attributes of the absolute oneness...call it what you will...

So here are some common terms and their complementary opposites...in truth they are not two separate things, but rather mere differentiated aspects of one. When you see the underlying unity of these apparent separate aspects...destiny is nigh...

Heaven and Earth
Spirit and Matter
Immortal and Mortal
Life and Death.*
Supernatural and Natural

* Note...relativity means that when immortal spirit enters the human elemental form to give it a temporary life, it is a spiritual death..

You are conflating religion with human organized religious institutions... If you know the Latin root and prefix of 'religion', you know it means to reconnect, to retie, to reunite,,,the same meaning as 'yoga',,,union...

It is difficult to have a serious discussion with you if you are not precise in your understanding of words...you can't be a spiritual person because spirit is immaterial, unless you really did mean to convey to me that the elemental body labelled Shawn is not actually you, but rather the incarnate spirit which is one with the omnipresent Cosmic spirit.

Art is for a long time
Life is for a short time
So leave your mark
It's your art of life... anon

Ben, we just disagree on a lot it seems.

First I said I don't belong to any organized religion.

I don't use terms like heaven.

Where did you get these are opposites? As well as I really don't agree here. Earth, Matter, even antimatter, Mortal, Spirit/Brain, Life and Death and natural, yes, but that is as far as I go there.

"Heaven and Earth
Spirit and Matter
Immortal and Mortal
Life and Death.*
Supernatural and Natural"

So in your book the supernatural exists and is the opposite of natural?

".you can't be a spiritual person because spirit is immaterial,"

I disagree and we don't agree on the definition of the term.

And what is "immaterial" ?

Where did this definition below come from?

"* Note...relativity means that when immortal spirit enters the human elemental form to give it a temporary life, it is a spiritual death..

"Immortal" show me anything evidence of anything which is immortal.

You use a lot of archaic terms I would never use or try not to use.

When have you ever seen the word "heaven" as opposite Earth in any science book article or anything peer reviewed?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Ben, we just disagree on a lot it seems.

First I said I don't belong to any organized religion.

I don't use terms like heaven.

Where did you get these are opposites? As well as I really don't agree here. Earth, Matter, even antimatter, Mortal, Spirit/Brain, Life and Death and natural, yes, but that is as far as I go there.

"Heaven and Earth
Spirit and Matter
Immortal and Mortal
Life and Death.*
Supernatural and Natural"

So in your book the supernatural exists and is the opposite of natural?

".you can't be a spiritual person because spirit is immaterial,"

I disagree and we don't agree on the definition of the term.

And what is "immaterial" ?

Where did this definition below come from?

"* Note...relativity means that when immortal spirit enters the human elemental form to give it a temporary life, it is a spiritual death..

"Immortal" show me anything evidence of anything which is immortal.

You use a lot of archaic terms I would never use or try not to use.

When have you ever seen the word "heaven" as opposite Earth in any science book article or anything peer reviewed?

Shawn....if the meaning of words are interpreted differently, the discussion will go off the rails... Two things, remember that words are concepts that have no reality in and of them selves, except as concepts, and secondly that the actual reality for which these words represent is forever on the other side of the word. Folk will never be able to understand what I am saying to them if they give a meaning to them in any way lacking in context or implication of the way I intended to convey.

Let's proceed slowly and methodically and get some common understanding of what the words we are using mean, So for example...spirit is a concept that represents a immaterial presence, and matter is a concept that represents the material presence. If you have any disagreement, please explain.

Remember....this is a Science and Religion Forum and you shouldn't expect that the religious wisdom has any real meaning for physical science....so there can be no meaningful discussion if your position is that every religious concept need to peer reviewed or proven by physical science...that would be plain silly. If you do, you should just not post here in future.

PS.. Of course I use a lot of archaic terms, I'm archaic...

 

[shawn001]

Shawn....if the meaning of words are interpreted differently, the discussion will go off the rails... Two things, remember that words are concepts that have no reality in and of them selves, except as concepts, and secondly that the actual reality for which these words represent is forever on the other side of the word. Folk will never be able to understand what I am saying to them if they give a meaning to them in any way lacking in context or implication of the way I intended to convey.

Let's proceed slowly and methodically and get some common understanding of what the words we are using mean, So for example...spirit is a concept that represents a immaterial presence, and matter is a concept that represents the material presence. If you have any disagreement, please explain.

Of course I use a lot of archaic terms, I'm archaic...

Remember....this is a Science and Religion Forum and you shouldn't expect that the religious wisdom has any real meaning for physical science....so there can be no meaningful discussion if your position is that every religious concept need to peer reviewed or proven by physical science...that would be plain silly. If you do, you should just not post here in future.

First, yes I know this is a Science and Religion Forum and have been a member for many years.

"that every religious concept need to peer reviewed or proven by physical science."

Then I will just start making up whatever I want and say its all facts and a truth then? Are we just going to go on without any evidence of anything?

"spirit is a concept that represents a immaterial presence"

I am wondering where you got this definition for spirit from? From a dictionary or where did this come from?

also define "immaterial" and what and where your getting that definition from? From a dictionary as well or where?

"Of course I use a lot of archaic terms, I'm archaic."

"With 60 staring me in the face, I have developed inflammation of the sentence structure and a definite hardening of the paragraphs."
James Thurber:

 

[shawn001]

Hey, I could be archaic here and use the defintion of the term "spirit" as

"An alcohol solution of an essential or volatile substance."

It makes a difference as we both know.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

First, yes I know this is a Science and Religion Forum and have been a member for many years.

"that every religious concept need to peer reviewed or proven by physical science."

Then I will just start making up whatever I want and say its all facts and a truth then? Are we just going to go on without any evidence of anything?

"spirit is a concept that represents a immaterial presence"

I am wondering where you got this definition for spirit from? From a dictionary or where did this come from?

also define "immaterial" and what and where your getting that definition from? From a dictionary as well or where?

"Of course I use a lot of archaic terms, I'm archaic."

"With 60 staring me in the face, I have developed inflammation of the sentence structure and a definite hardening of the paragraphs."
James Thurber:

Nonsense...religious terminology such as Spirit, Angels, Brahman, Devas, Nirvana, Eternity, Omnipresence, etc., preceded scientific concepts such as atoms, leptons, quarks, gravity, inertia, etc... These concepts are not in contradiction of each other, they are complementary....one deals with the absolute, the other with the finite....evolution proceeds afoot....

You appear to think that because the infinite can't be proven by the finite, that the former concept is not real....silly claim but you are welcome to it...

Spirit... Christian theology can use the term "Spirit" to describe God, or aspects of God — as in the "Holy Spirit
An incorporeal but ubiquitous, non-quantifiable substance or energy present individually in all living things ..........(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit)

Immaterial....Not consisting of matter: Without material form or substance. ...Wordweb Dictionary

PS..looking at 60...you are still a pup...

 

[shawn001]

A lot of the things you mention here, in my book go along the same lines as Santa Clause.

"You appear to think that because the infinite can't be proven by the finite, that the former concept is not real"

No I don't think that actually. There could be an infinite amount of multiverses for example. I don't know and right now there is as much evidence for me to believe in some of the things you mention in the same category as a pink unicorn.

Have a little ways to go before I hit 60. Just thought that was a good quote and sometimes I feel like it when I am writing.

 

[shawn001]

Just FYI


A Zoroastrian is an adherent to Zoroastrianism, the first monotheistic religion, that is based on the teachings and philosophies of Zoroaster.

Zoroastrianism is a religion and philosophy based on the teachings of prophet Zoroaster (or Zarathustra - Persian). The term Zoroastrianism is, in general usage, essentially synonymous with Mazdaism, i.e. the worship of Ahura Mazda, exalted by Zoroaster (Zarathustra) as the supreme divine authority. Along with Hinduism, Zoroastrianism is considered to be among the oldest religions in the world.

Zoroastrianism is the ancient, pre-Islamic religion of Persia (modern Iran). It survives there in isolated areas but more prosperously in India, where the descendants of Zoroastrian Persian immigrants are known as Parsis, or Parsees. In India the religion is called Parsiism.

Founded by the Iranian prophet and reformer Zoroaster in the 6th century BC, Zoroastrianism contains both monotheistic and dualistic features. Its concepts of one God, judgment, heaven and hell likely influenced the major Western religons of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Date founded: c.6th cent. BC Place founded: Ancient Persia Founder: Zarathustra (Zoroaster)

Zarathustra (in Greek, Zoroaster) was a Persian prophet who at the age of 30 believed he had seen visions of God, whom he called Ahura Mazda, the creator of all that is good and who alone is worthy of worship. This was a departure from previous Indo-Persian polytheism, and Zarathustra has been termed the first non-biblical monotheist. There is disagreement among scholars as to exactly when and where Zarathustra lived, but most agree that he lived in eastern Iran around the sixth century BC.

Beliefs
The Zoroastrian concept of God incorporates both monotheism and dualism. In his visions, Zarathustra was taken up to heaven, where Ahura Mazda revealed that he had an opponent, Aura Mainyu, the spirit and promoter of evil. Ahura Mazda charged Zarathustra with the task of inviting all human beings to choose between him (good) and Aura Mainyu (evil).

Though Zoroastrianism was never as aggressively monotheistic as Judaism or Islam, it does represent an original attempt at unifying under the worship of one supreme god a polytheistic religion comparable to those of the ancient Greeks, Latins, Indians, and other early peoples.

Its other salient feature, namely dualism, was never understood in an absolute, rigorous fashion. Good and Evil fight an unequal battle in which the former is assured of triumph. God's omnipotence is thus only temporarily limited.

Zoroaster taught that man must enlist in this cosmic struggle because of his capacity of free choice. Thus Zoroastrianism is a highly ethical religion in which the choice of good over evil has almost cosmic importance. Zarathustra taught that humans are free to choose between right and wrong, truth and lie, and light and dark, and that their choices would affect their eternity destiny.

The Zoroastrian afterlife is determined by the balance of the good and evil deeds, words, and thoughts of the whole life. For those whose good deeds outweight the bad, heaven awaits. Those who did more evil than good go to hell (which has several levels corresponding to degrees of wickedness). There is an intermediate stage for those whose deeds weight out equally.

Zoroaster invoked saviors who, like the dawns of new days, would come to the world. He hoped himself to be one of them. After his death, the belief in coming saviors developed. He also incorporated belief in angels and demons.

Zoroaster's ideas of ethical monotheism, heaven, hell, angelology, the resurrection of the body, and the messiah figure were influential on Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, though to what extent is not known for certain.

Zoroastrianism - ReligionFacts

 

[Ben Dhyan]

A lot of the things you mention here, in my book go along the same lines as Santa Clause.

"You appear to think that because the infinite can't be proven by the finite, that the former concept is not real"

No I don't think that actually. There could be an infinite amount of multiverses for example. I don't know and right now there is as much evidence for me to believe in some of the things you mention in the same category as a pink unicorn.

Have a little ways to go before I hit 60. Just thought that was a good quote and sometimes I feel like it when I am writing.

Santa Claus....pink unicorns....there is great irony in your position....the masses never believed the earth was spherical until it was proven, yet leaders of humanity intuited it before the proof...you refuse to consider the existence of spiritual beings until you personally have proof.

As a space enthusiast, do you take the position that those leaders who intuit the existence of ET are analogous to those who believe in Santa Claus?

Tell me, do you accept the reality of psychic phenomena such as telepathy, clairvoyance, prescience, etc.?

Do you accept there are Cosmic vibrational fields not yet detected by human science?

Do you accept that higher consciousness may exist in some other form other than in the human brain?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Just FYI


A Zoroastrian is an adherent to Zoroastrianism, the first monotheistic religion, that is based on the teachings and philosophies of Zoroaster.

Zoroastrianism is a religion and philosophy based on the teachings of prophet Zoroaster (or Zarathustra - Persian). The term Zoroastrianism is, in general usage, essentially synonymous with Mazdaism, i.e. the worship of Ahura Mazda, exalted by Zoroaster (Zarathustra) as the supreme divine authority. Along with Hinduism, Zoroastrianism is considered to be among the oldest religions in the world.

Zoroastrianism is the ancient, pre-Islamic religion of Persia (modern Iran). It survives there in isolated areas but more prosperously in India, where the descendants of Zoroastrian Persian immigrants are known as Parsis, or Parsees. In India the religion is called Parsiism.

Founded by the Iranian prophet and reformer Zoroaster in the 6th century BC, Zoroastrianism contains both monotheistic and dualistic features. Its concepts of one God, judgment, heaven and hell likely influenced the major Western religons of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

Date founded: c.6th cent. BC Place founded: Ancient Persia Founder: Zarathustra (Zoroaster)

Zarathustra (in Greek, Zoroaster) was a Persian prophet who at the age of 30 believed he had seen visions of God, whom he called Ahura Mazda, the creator of all that is good and who alone is worthy of worship. This was a departure from previous Indo-Persian polytheism, and Zarathustra has been termed the first non-biblical monotheist. There is disagreement among scholars as to exactly when and where Zarathustra lived, but most agree that he lived in eastern Iran around the sixth century BC.

Beliefs
The Zoroastrian concept of God incorporates both monotheism and dualism. In his visions, Zarathustra was taken up to heaven, where Ahura Mazda revealed that he had an opponent, Aura Mainyu, the spirit and promoter of evil. Ahura Mazda charged Zarathustra with the task of inviting all human beings to choose between him (good) and Aura Mainyu (evil).

Though Zoroastrianism was never as aggressively monotheistic as Judaism or Islam, it does represent an original attempt at unifying under the worship of one supreme god a polytheistic religion comparable to those of the ancient Greeks, Latins, Indians, and other early peoples.

Its other salient feature, namely dualism, was never understood in an absolute, rigorous fashion. Good and Evil fight an unequal battle in which the former is assured of triumph. God's omnipotence is thus only temporarily limited.

Zoroaster taught that man must enlist in this cosmic struggle because of his capacity of free choice. Thus Zoroastrianism is a highly ethical religion in which the choice of good over evil has almost cosmic importance. Zarathustra taught that humans are free to choose between right and wrong, truth and lie, and light and dark, and that their choices would affect their eternity destiny.

The Zoroastrian afterlife is determined by the balance of the good and evil deeds, words, and thoughts of the whole life. For those whose good deeds outweight the bad, heaven awaits. Those who did more evil than good go to hell (which has several levels corresponding to degrees of wickedness). There is an intermediate stage for those whose deeds weight out equally.

Zoroaster invoked saviors who, like the dawns of new days, would come to the world. He hoped himself to be one of them. After his death, the belief in coming saviors developed. He also incorporated belief in angels and demons.

Zoroaster's ideas of ethical monotheism, heaven, hell, angelology, the resurrection of the body, and the messiah figure were influential on Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, though to what extent is not known for certain.

Zoroastrianism - ReligionFacts

Shawn, I was a practicing member of the Theosophical Society, Brisbane Lodge in the 90s....as such I had access to the occult library, and read profusely. I am familiar with all of the worlds religions, dead and alive...

One of the things you need to understand...there is in existence still, an esoteric tradition involving spiritual initiations where one is trained to develop the intuitive faculty which eventually results gaining insights into the mysteries....belief then no longer plays a part in what one understands concerning much of the so called mythology of the now dead religions... This knowledge is not meant to be believed...it is to be discovered by the aspirant first hand...hence the usual secrecy associated with such understanding as the profane, if told about, would likely trample the pearls, then turn and attack you.

 

[shawn001]

See I don't believe in anything occult personally.

"
The occult (from the Latin word occultus "clandestine, hidden, secret") is "knowledge of the hidden".[1] In common English usage, occult refers to "knowledge of the paranormal", as opposed to "knowledge of the measurable",[2] usually referred to as science. The term is sometimes taken to mean knowledge that "is meant only for certain people" or that "must be kept hidden", but for most practicing occultists it is simply the study of a deeper spiritual reality that extends beyond pure reason and the physical sciences.[3] The terms esoteric and arcane have very similar meanings, and in most contexts the three terms are interchangeable.[4][5]

It also describes a number of magical organizations or orders, the teachings and practices taught by them, and to a large body of current and historical literature and spiritual philosophy related to this subject."

Occult - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


My family were some of the very first settlers of NY before the Theosophical Society was formed there.

There is a state park there named after one of my relatives and one of the areas that helped proved evolution, when they were investigating the Helderberg Escarpment.

John Boyd Thacher State Park

"Thacher State Park is situated along the Helderberg Escarpment, one of the richest fossil-bearing formations in the world."

Thacher State Park - NYS Parks, Recreation & Historic Preservation

There is also an Island off the coast of Mass, where some of my fiurst relatives shipwreak and the Island is still named after him.

Thacher Island

"The name comes from a shipwreck described as "pathetic" by historians. A small boat out of Ipswich , bound for Marblehead , was caught in the Great Storm of August, 1635, and was dashed to pieces on the rocks of the Island . Of the twenty-three passengers and crew, only Anthony Thacher and his wife survived, watching helplessly as their children and friends were swept away.
On September 3, 1635 , the General Court voted Thacher 40 Marks. Also, in 1636-37, the General Court voted to grant Thacher the Island "at the head of Cape Ann , as his inheritance."

Thacher Island Association

 

[shawn001]

Ben, glad you have studies the ancient religions though.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

"See I don't believe in anything occult personally."

That explains your closed mind wrt much of what I have tried to convey... I was using the word 'occult' as hidden from the less intuitive members of the human race...evolution is the natural way of the cosmos...there are prerequisite trials before a candidate is allowed to make the next step...just like going from grade to grade at school...all just a part of the natural law of Cosmos..

 

[shawn001]

"See I don't believe in anything occult personally."

That explains your closed mind wrt much of what I have tried to convey... I was using the word 'occult' as hidden from the less intuitive members of the human race...evolution is the natural way of the cosmos...there are prerequisite trials before a candidate is allowed to make the next step...just like going from grade to grade at school...all just a part of the natural law of Cosmos..

Its not a close mind as you might think, its just not so open it falls out.

I would rather spend my time on QM, astronomy and cosmology, then chasing ghosts.

".there are prerequisite trials before a candidate is allowed to make the next step...just like going from grade to grade at school.."

"I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member".
Groucho Marx

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Its not a close mind as you might think, its just not so open it falls out.

I would rather spend my time on QM, astronomy and cosmology, then chasing ghosts.

".there are prerequisite trials before a candidate is allowed to make the next step...just like going from grade to grade at school.."

"I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member".
Groucho Marx

No worries about your mind falling out, it can be a rough ride though, when all the compartmentalization we have built up in our mind to insulate from each other all of the self contradictions we harbor, and to hide our hypocrisy from waking state consciousness, are dissolved and find that the emperor is naked...

QM, particularly zpe research is one area that technically supports my esoteric understanding of cosmology, and various religious doctrines....I follow it closely...

So your genes go back a long way as an American...any Mohawk genes there?
.

 

[shawn001]

My Gene's actually go back to Juluis Ceaser mom, Aurelia Cotta.

My family also took in Martin Luther.

Eastman Kodak archives and Frau Von Cotta and Martin Luther

They own the J. G Cotta Publishing house and published Schiller and Goethe works among others.

"Cotta is the name of a family of German publishers, intimately connected with the history of German literature. The Cottas were of noble Italian descent, and at the time of theReformation the family was settled in Eisenach in Thuringia.

Johann Georg Cotta (1631–1692), the founder of the publishing house of J. G. Cotta, married in 1659 the widow of the university bookseller, Philipp Braun, in Tübingen, and took over the management of his business, thus establishing the firm which was subsequently associated with Cotta's name. On his death, in 1692, the undertaking passed to his only son, also name Johann Georg; and on his death in 1712, to the latter's eldest son, also named Johann Georg, while the second son, Johann Friedrich, became a distinguished theologian.

Although the eldest son of the third Johann Georg, Christoph Friedrich Cotta (1730–1807), established a printing-house to the court at Stuttgart, the business languished.

Johann Friedrich Cotta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They kept great records and I still have a lot of items from the family.

 

[shawn001]

I am also part Norwegian and related to Roald Amundsen, a cousin who was the first to reach the North and South poles.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Hmm.....so I see why the spirit of taking on the space frontier...it's in your genes, and the earth is all explored... But the Caesar/Cotta and Martin Luther genes must not be turned on yet...for then you would intuit the esoteric understanding of ancient religious practice..

 

[Tumah]

I don't see why they should be mutually exclusive.