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Are Scientists Lying about Evolution?

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, until these problems are resolved and I stop getting news stories like this one, you'll have to forgive my skepticism.
Mine, too. That is a good example of greed corrupting research. Other things corrupt research too, such as a desire to protect religious ideas. This past century research into macromolecules was held back, because some researchers refused to believe that a macromolecule could be produced without a hidden living principle from an animal or plant. This was a groundless assertion and proved to be so, as today we readily use plastics made with chemicals only. Scientific process was hindered but not stopped, however the discovery of macromolecular technology didn't directly threaten the jobs of ministers. It therefore was overturned by a few researchers ignoring and stretching past it to see what was possible. Creationism is another kind of objection altogether, since ministers have the (false) perception that their jobs are threatened by evolution and the idea of natural selection making people.
 

Zosimus

Active Member
Mine, too. That is a good example of greed corrupting research. Other things corrupt research too, such as a desire to protect religious ideas. This past century research into macromolecules was held back, because some researchers refused to believe that a macromolecule could be produced without a hidden living principle from an animal or plant. This was a groundless assertion and proved to be so, as today we readily use plastics made with chemicals only. Scientific process was hindered but not stopped, however the discovery of macromolecular technology didn't directly threaten the jobs of ministers. It therefore was overturned by a few researchers ignoring and stretching past it to see what was possible. Creationism is another kind of objection altogether, since ministers have the (false) perception that their jobs are threatened by evolution and the idea of natural selection making people.
I googled "macromolecules opposition" and the only page that I found was https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/education/whatischemistry/landmarks/staudingerpolymerscience.html wherein we read:

In 1920, Hermann Staudinger, then professor of organic chemistry at the Eigenössische Technische Hochschule in Zurich, created a stir in the international chemical community when he postulated that materials such as natural rubber have very high molecular weights....his new concept, referred to as "macromolecules" by Staudinger in 1922, covered both synthetic and natural polymers and was the key to a wide range of modern polymeric materials and innovative applications. Today, the molecular architectures of synthetic polymers and biopolymers are tailored with high precision to meet the demands of modern technology. The products of polymer chemistry are diverse, from food packaging, textile fibers, auto parts and toys, to membranes for water desalination, carriers used in controlled drug release and biopolymers for tissue engineering....

Despite the impressive experimental evidence, Staudinger continued to encounter very strong opposition from leading organic chemists for nearly two decades. For instance, Heinrich Wieland, 1927 Nobel laureate in chemistry, wrote to Staudinger, "Dear colleague, drop the idea of large molecules; organic molecules with a molecular weight higher than 5000 do not exist. Purify your products, such as rubber, then they will crystallize and prove to be low molecular compounds!"
------------------------

So you see, the opposition to macromolecules seems to have come from scientists rather than from ministers.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Scientific process was hindered but not stopped, however the discovery of macromolecular technology didn't directly threaten the jobs of ministers. It therefore was overturned by a few researchers ignoring and stretching past it to see what was possible.
So you see, the opposition to macromolecules seems to have come from scientists rather than from ministers.
Yes, not from ministers that time but from believers in something called Vitalism, which was a form of creationism. The discovery of macromolecules did not reach the attention of ministers.

Evolution is much more public. If you want an example of ministers interfering in natural research there are plenty of historical ones where they oppose medical practice and scientific research. Many do not hesitate to accuse innovators of evil historically; and the modern accusation that scientists who accept evolution are liars deceived by Satan is one that comes from ministers. They stand to lose face if they have preached a literally young Earth. Many do not even have the confidence of a solid background in divinity and have learned their trade from no-name schools. They have no confidence and don't know what would happen if they told the truth, and congregations can be very unforgiving of a minister who changes their mind about something. They just tend to oppose anything that will cause them to have to face the wrath of their own congregations....I add to that a lot of modern ministers are in franchised church groups. They really can't do whatever they feel and have to tow the line.
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
All right. Let's make a few assumptions and see where logic leads us. Let's suppose that this species of fish has exactly 10 fossils that science will eventually find. Since a disproportionate number of these fossils will have been made from fish swimming deeply in shallow waters, can we not assume that, by chance, scientists are more likely to find one of those fossils first. Can we not?

Then scientists will draw conclusions based on that fossil, conclusions that may not be accurate.

Awesome. Now that you have have re-established that fish swimming closer to the bottom of the ocean are MORE LIKELY to be fossilised, now provide evidence that:

A.) That ONLY those fish that swim near the bottom will be fossilised

And therefore

B.) Scientists would assume that any fossils that are found have to be of bottom feeders by default.

C.) That ONLY aberrant examples of a species can be fossilised.
 

Zosimus

Active Member
Yes, not from ministers that time but from believers in something called Vitalism, which was a form of creationism. The discovery of macromolecules did not reach the attention of ministers.

Evolution is much more public. If you want an example of ministers interfering in natural research there are plenty of historical ones where they oppose medical practice and scientific research. Many do not hesitate to accuse innovators of evil historically; and the modern accusation that scientists who accept evolution are liars deceived by Satan is one that comes from ministers. They stand to lose face if they have preached a literally young Earth. Many do not even have the confidence of a solid background in divinity and have learned their trade from no-name schools. They have no confidence and don't know what would happen if they told the truth, and congregations can be very unforgiving of a minister who changes their mind about something. They just tend to oppose anything that will cause them to have to face the wrath of their own congregations....I add to that a lot of modern ministers are in franchised church groups. They really can't do whatever they feel and have to tow the line.
Again, most of what you say is factually incorrect. Vitalism can be traced back to ancient Egypt. Now, ancient Egypt wasn't exactly a hot bed of creationist Christians. Galen of Pergamon, a prominent Greek physician, expanded on the theory. Again – it's not like he was a Bible-thumping evangelist. Louis Pasteur continued work on the theory with his experiments, which were designed to disprove the idea of spontaneous generation of life.

If you continue to assert that ministers opposed the idea of macromolecules for religious reasons, I'm going to need a link.

The rest of your rant about ministers and evolution is just speculation. It is a long list of claims that lack any kind of facts to support them.
 

Zosimus

Active Member
Awesome. Now that you have have re-established that fish swimming closer to the bottom of the ocean are MORE LIKELY to be fossilised, now provide evidence that:

A.) That ONLY those fish that swim near the bottom will be fossilised

And therefore

B.) Scientists would assume that any fossils that are found have to be of bottom feeders by default.

C.) That ONLY aberrant examples of a species can be fossilised.
Since I made none of those claims and since the claims that I have made and substantiated already provide excellent support for the main idea of my argument, I see no need to waste time on straw men arguments composed by people who cannot refute the main point and so waste time attacking non-existent ancillary statements.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Again, most of what you say is factually incorrect. Vitalism can be traced back to ancient Egypt.
Its creationism.
Now, ancient Egypt wasn't exactly a hot bed of creationist Christians. Galen of Pergamon, a prominent Greek physician, expanded on the theory. Again – it's not like he was a Bible-thumping evangelist. Louis Pasteur continued work on the theory with his experiments, which were designed to disprove the idea of spontaneous generation of life.
Pasteur fought against creationism, just a different kind. He was very unpopular for it, and he faced a lot of opposition.
If you continue to assert that ministers opposed the idea of macromolecules for religious reasons, I'm going to need a link.
Ministers oppose evolution, not macromolecules which were opposed by Vitalist creationists. Their political, slanderous accusations are that scientists are deceived by Satan, a fact you have not once admitted. You are helping them by ignoring how evil that is. Admit its evil.

The rest of your rant about ministers and evolution is just speculation. It is a long list of claims that lack any kind of facts to support them.
Its personal experience. Preachers invite creationist speakers to their churches and let them collect money and sell books, videos and tapes. Preachers are fired or face opposition if they oppose young Earth creationism. Preachers oppose anything that opposes their paid positions, including any perceived threats.
 

Zosimus

Active Member
Its creationism.

Pasteur fought against creationism, just a different kind. He was very unpopular for it, and he faced a lot of opposition.

Ministers oppose evolution, not macromolecules which were opposed by Vitalist creationists. Their political, slanderous accusations are that scientists are deceived by Satan, a fact you have not once admitted. You are helping them by ignoring how evil that is. Admit its evil.

Its personal experience. Preachers invite creationist speakers to their churches and let them collect money and sell books, videos and tapes. Preachers are fired or face opposition if they oppose young Earth creationism. Preachers oppose anything that opposes their paid positions, including any perceived threats.
Does evil exist? I'm agnostic about that.
Assuming that evil does exist, is expressing the idea that scientists have been deceived an evil one? I'm agnostic about that.
Does it become more evil if you assume that Satan is the one doing the deceiving? I'm agnostic about that too.
If someone sells books, videos, and tapes is that evil? I'm inclined to think that it isn't.
Is collecting money evil? I'm inclined to think that it isn't.

Do scientists ever collect money or sell books, videos, and tapes? I believe that they do. Do you hold that this action is evil? If not, why is the same activity evil when it is carried out by non-scientists?
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
Since I made none of those claims and since the claims that I have made and substantiated already provide excellent support for the main idea of my argument, I see no need to waste time on straw men arguments composed by people who cannot refute the main point and so waste time attacking non-existent ancillary statements.

Thanks for playing mate.
 

Treks

Well-Known Member
Since I made none of those claims and since the claims that I have made and substantiated already provide excellent support for the main idea of my argument, I see no need to waste time on straw men arguments composed by people who cannot refute the main point and so waste time attacking non-existent ancillary statements.

omg ref. post #26.

There's only one person wasting time in this exchange and it isn't you. :)
 

Zosimus

Active Member
omg ref. post #26.

There's only one person wasting time in this exchange and it isn't you. :)
Yeah, what's the problem with post #26? I made it. I stand by it.

Most organisms do not get fossilized. A fossil is, therefore, by very definition, an aberration. Fossils are unusual. They're atypical. They are not necessarily a representative sample of all organisms from that time.

So in response to this I get message such as:

"...now provide evidence that:

C.) That ONLY aberrant examples of a species can be fossilised."

I never, ever, ever, ever, ever said that ONLY aberrant examples of a species can be fossilized.

I said that FOSSILS ARE ABERRATIONS. OMG can you read?! Because it sure doesn't seem that way.
 
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