Are the 10 Commandments as a whole valid today?

[djhwoodwerks]

I do debate them - 9 of the 10 are still valid in the eyes of God.

The Sabbath day is not observed in Christianity (Colossians 2: 14-17).

I've provided scripture to prove my point. When will you?

(This is a "Religious" debate after all).

The scripture you provided does not prove your point!

Colossians 2:14 (ESV Strong's) 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

That verse is talking about sin and the penalty for sin, it has nothing to do with the law. The "record of debt" is sin, "it's legal demands" is death.

This is what I believe, the 10 commandments were written by God, "SET IN STONE" they will always be active. The law God gave Moses, Moses wrote on wood, which was not til everlasting. When Jesus said "it is finished" He meant he fulfilled the law of Moses, which He walked perfectly.

Matthew 5:17 (ESV Strong's) 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Not all of us are sinners, and not everyone buys into this damnation/redemption thing. The 10 Commandments, to me, are things that you just should not have to have a book to tell you to not do (such as stealing and killing), things that are absurd (such as restrictions on adultery), or things that are not proper, such as commanding that a child respect and honor their parents rather than commanding the parents to earn that honor and respect.

Really? What about this,

Genesis 6:5 (ESV Strong's) 5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

If God hadn't put into the minds of people, don't kill, don't steal and so on, how do you think this world would be today? Do you think humans just 'got good' on their own?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Why do people have a problem with the commandment about the Sabbath. If God rested on the seventh day and then blessed that day and told people to remember it, why not just do it? Why would 9 of the 10 be carried forward but 1 left out?

 

[metis]

Why do people have a problem with the commandment about the Sabbath. If God rested on the seventh day and then blessed that day and told people to remember it, why not just do it? Why would 9 of the 10 be carried forward but 1 left out?

The "Sabbath" ("Shabbat" in Hebrew) is the name of the day of the week that corresponds to Friday sundown to Saturday sundown on our western calendar, and there's a series of Laws that go with it as specified in Torah.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Yes, I understand. This is the day God rested after six days creating the universe. God blessed this seventh day and commanded that people remember and honor it. Why then do so many people try to change it to the first day of the week? God did not rest first and then create the universe. But people refuse to accept this and continue to look for excuses why they do not have to.

 

[metis]

Yes, I understand. This is the day God rested after six days creating the universe. God blessed this seventh day and commanded that people remember and honor it. Why then do so many people try to change it to the first day of the week? God did not rest first and then create the universe. But people refuse to accept this and continue to look for excuses why they do not have to.

Because the Mosaiic Law only applies to Jews, as found in Torah.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Because the Mosaiic Law only applies to Jews, as found in Torah.

That's fair. Ok, it only applies to Jews. Debate ended!

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Well maybe the debate is not ended. Jesus said to keep the commandments. He did not say it only applied to Jews but to anyone who loves Him. So it seems like anyone who loves Jesus whether Jew or not should keep all ten of the commandments. And again, most people do not have a problem with 9 of the 10. They just do not like the idea of remembering the day God rested.

 

[metis]

Well maybe the debate is not ended. Jesus said to keep the commandments. He did not say it only applied to Jews but to anyone who loves Him. So it seems like anyone who loves Jesus whether Jew or not should keep all ten of the commandments. And again, most people do not have a problem with 9 of the 10. They just do not like the idea of remembering the day God rested.

Jesus would well know that it only applied to Jews as Commandments, but it's up to anyone who is not Jewish to decide if (s)he wants to follow any of them. The reality is that Jesus boils all of them down to two: love of God and love of one another. Remember: "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.".

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

I am glad you can read minds and know exactly what Jesus was thinking 2000 years ago. I greatly admire you for that. I still go back to Jesus specific words," If you love me keep the commandments". He then named more than two of them to show He was talking about all ten. Thank you for letting me know that reading His mind is more important than reading His clear words. When Jesus said all the law hangs on loving God and loving one another that was not saying the law was optional, it was saying if you love God and one another you will keep all the law. There, I can read minds too.

 

[metis]

I am glad you can read minds and know exactly what Jesus was thinking 2000 years ago. I greatly admire you for that. I still go back to Jesus specific words," If you love me keep the commandments". He then named more than two of them to show He was talking about all ten. Thank you for letting me know that reading His mind is more important than reading His clear words. When Jesus said all the law hangs on loving God and loving one another that was not saying the law was optional, it was saying if you love God and one another you will keep all the law. There, I can read minds too.

You can try and play this any way you desire, but for one I never said or implied I could read Jesus' mind, so you're just being completely disingenuous, and I'm not terribly crazy about trying to have a serious discussion with people who are like that.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

And it is hard to have a discussion with someone who says Jesus did not mean what He said. "If you love me, keep the commandments" is very plain and clear. But people keep looking for excuses why it does not mean what it says. Anyone who claims to love Jesus but finds reasons not to keep the commandments is only fooling himself. "If you love me" applies to everyone, not just Jews.

 

[Tarheeler]

Why do people have a problem with the commandment about the Sabbath. If God rested on the seventh day and then blessed that day and told people to remember it, why not just do it? Why would 9 of the 10 be carried forward but 1 left out?

Actually, they're leaving out 604 if you want to be specific.

If Jesus said to keep the commandments, then why only worry about 10 (or 9) of them?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Jesus would well know that it only applied to Jews as Commandments, but it's up to anyone who is not Jewish to decide if (s)he wants to follow any of them. The reality is that Jesus boils all of them down to two: love of God and love of one another. Remember: "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.".

I don't know if in Christianity this is wrong, but these two commandments are summaries of all the ones in the OT rather than a replacement. If you take each of the 613 (I think?) commandments, you can fit them in one of these two summaries. So, I'd say Christians should follow them all and keep in mind that even though they can't strictly follow all the OT commandments (as Jesus' says), they could at least keep the 10 and mind the two that is all.

Eh.

 

[metis]

I don't know if in Christianity this is wrong, but these two commandments are summaries of all the ones in the OT rather than a replacement. If you take each of the 613 (I think?) commandments, you can fit them in one of these two summaries. So, I'd say Christians should follow them all and keep in mind that even though they can't strictly follow all the OT commandments (as Jesus' says), they could at least keep the 10 and mind the two that is all.

Eh.

But again, Jews are the only one obligated to follow all 613 Commandments, but if non-Jews wanted to follow some of them, who's to stop them?

But, referring more directly to what you wrote, I do believe it more likely that Jesus main purpose in his teaching was to teach compassion and justice/fairness for all, and you are correct in that one could take a very liberal view of the 613 and feel that this is what they are about as well. Hillel the Elder made such a comment in regards to the purpose of the Law as he saw it, however he felt that following the letter of the Law was still essential.

What we read in Acts is the church gradually walking away from the Law, such as Peter's vision that negated keeping kosher for them, and I do believe that doing as such implies to me that Jesus must have opened that "door" for them to do that. We also see numerous statements coming from Paul, such as negating circumcision prior to conversion, which was essential under the Law. Would the apostles have eliminated that if Jesus had taught strict obedience to the letter of the Law? I can't see how.

And by the time we get to the beginning of the 2nd century, the Law is essentially passe within the apostolic church. This couldn't have happened, imo, unless the apostles opened that door as well. If they had taught that strict obedience to the Law was essential, then it begs the question why they felt so early on why it was unimportant for their appointees to do so a bit later?

To me, the only thing that explains what we saw happening within the early church in regards to this is that Jesus used the concept that Torah was entirely about compassion and justice, thus if a person acted as such, they were following the purpose of the Law. And let me just add that one indeed can argue that point.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I am glad you can read minds and know exactly what Jesus was thinking 2000 years ago. I greatly admire you for that. I still go back to Jesus specific words," If you love me keep the commandments". He then named more than two of them to show He was talking about all ten. Thank you for letting me know that reading His mind is more important than reading His clear words. When Jesus said all the law hangs on loving God and loving one another that was not saying the law was optional, it was saying if you love God and one another you will keep all the law. There, I can read minds too.

That is a misquotation. Jesus says "If you love me, keep my commands." (John 14:15) which makes sense. He never says "If you love me keep the commandments", and besides they are already keeping the commandments (the mitzvos). He wants them to keep his commands in addition to what they already do.

 

[metis]

BTW, to the above [my post #215], let me just add that when I taught Christian theology, the example I used was that of a parent teaching their child how to clean up the room. It's "Pick up that toy and put it here, then pick up those clothes and put them there, ...". After they get older, a parent should only have to say "Clean up your room!", and most assuredly they'd obey.

So, one can maybe picture God giving the Law to Jews, pointing out the specifics of what's expected pointy by point, but then Jesus coming much later in time saying to his followers "Clean up you act!", and those growing up in the Jewish tradition would know what he's talking about.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But again, Jews are the only one obligated to follow all 613 Commandments, but if non-Jews wanted to follow some of them, who's to stop them?

But, referring more directly to what you wrote, I do believe it more likely that Jesus main purpose in his teaching was to teach compassion and justice/fairness for all, and you are correct in that one could take a very liberal view of the 613 and feel that this is what they are about as well. Hillel the Elder made such a comment in regards to the purpose of the Law as he saw it, however he felt that following the letter of the Law was still essential.

What we read in Acts is the church gradually walking away from the Law, such as Peter's vision that negated keeping kosher for them, and I do believe that doing as such implies to me that Jesus must have opened that "door" for them to do that. We also see numerous statements coming from Paul, such as negating circumcision prior to conversion, which was essential under the Law. Would the apostles have eliminated that if Jesus had taught strict obedience to the letter of the Law? I can't see how.

And by the time we get to the beginning of the 2nd century, the Law is essentially passe within the apostolic church. This couldn't have happened, imo, unless the apostles opened that door as well. If they had taught that strict obedience to the Law was essential, then it begs the question why they felt so early on why it was unimportant for their appointees to do so a bit later?

To me, the only thing that explains what we saw happening within the early church in regards to this is that Jesus used the concept that Torah was entirely about compassion and justice, thus if a person acted as such, they were following the purpose of the Law. And let me just add that one indeed can argue that point.

I read what you said; and, very informative. Do you think Christians can benefit from observing the Law even though Jesus summed it and the apostles negated some of the practices of the Law (if I'm reading you correctly)?

I know some Christians who feel practice of whatever kind isn't the same as compassion and other emotions that have no physical attribute beyond helping the sick and holding one's head down in prayer. I don't know if it's lack of understanding of tradition intertwined with belief or rejection of it. I feel that is another reason why they say they are not obligated to keep the commandments. Catholicism and other liturgical Churches seem to attempt and/or follow the laws as best they can. It could be a protestant thing that became mainstream thought.

 

[metis]

I read what you said; and, very informative. Do you think Christians can benefit from observing the Law even though Jesus summed it and the apostles negated some of the practices of the Law (if I'm reading you correctly)?

I know some Christians who feel practice of whatever kind isn't the same as compassion and other emotions that have no physical attribute beyond helping the sick and holding one's head down in prayer. I don't know if it's lack of understanding of tradition intertwined with belief or rejection of it. I feel that is another reason why they say they are not obligated to keep the commandments. Catholicism and other liturgical Churches seem to attempt and/or follow the laws as best they can. It could be a protestant thing that became mainstream thought.

First of all, see my post #217 as I took it a bit further from the one you quote above from me.

In various books in the Tanakh, we were warned about performing sacrifices, for example, but just going through the motions. It's when we do the task but then forget or ignore what the task is for. In Matthew 25 with the Parable of the Sheep & Goats, this is essentially saying the same thing. The "goats" believe about Jesus, but not in him, and believing in him involves a commitment of compassion and justice for all.

As with Jews and Christians, you will find some just going through the motions but not actually doing what Moses and Jesus taught about compassion and justice. As we've seen all too many times, many seem to think that going to synagogue or church is like going into a washing machine and coming out clean, instead of realizing that living out love and compassion for the entire week is essential. IOW, synagogue and church are meant to be a beginning to an end, not the end itself.

One of the priests at my wife's church often said this: "Joe thought he was going to heaven because of what he did on Sunday, but he went to hell for what he did on Monday". Or this one: "Joe missed going to heaven by 18 inches-- the distance from his head to his heart". Being nice to people whom one likes is easy, but being nice to even those who may hate and demean you is much more difficult, but that's what we're called to do.

If Christians feel more attached to God for keeping our Commandments, that's great, but I hope they also realize that what they should mostly concentrate on is having and acting on compassion and fairness to all, regardless as to how difficult that may be, And let me just finish by saying that I'm not always good at doing that.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

OK, I am honest enough to admit I was thinking of the wrong verse. Jesus said in Matthew 19:17 - 19 that if you would enter into life you should keep the commandments. Then He named several of them to show He was talking about the 10 commandments. These ten were written in stone by God's own hand. The 600 others were never written instone. So all those who find excuses not to follow the commandments must not expect to enter into life. That will make it a lot less crowded for those who are willing to obey. It also seems that if you love Jesus you would follow all His words and not just those you like.