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Are the Abrahamic Religions Inherently Authoritarian?

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
.. and when mature, a child then has the foundation of making wise choices.
After childhood, there is no need for advice. I understand things. Unwanted advice is trying to imposing authority.
Hindi proverb "Para upadesh kushal bahutere" (Many are adept in giving advice to others - without even being asked).
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
That is your thought as to what was offered, what you offered is not how I see a good parent.

The Bible says, by their fruits you will know them.

So why concentrate on bad apples?

Regards Tony
I don't concentrate on bad apples. I see the good and the bad parents and I'm asking if having an authoritarian religion makes you more likely to defend bad parenting. I see religion having been used to stop children from kicking their parents out just because they are parents, no matter how bad they are.
I don't know enough about Baha'i to say if it is useful for stabilising a dictatorship but your comments make me think it is.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
After childhood, there is no need for advice.

That is not apparent in this world. There are many that urgently need and should consider good advice, I would be one of those.

Not being on RF, would most likely be good advice. :D

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I don't know enough about Baha'i to say if it is useful for stabilising a dictatorship but your comments make me think it is

Thus a choice to know for sure, or remain without that knowledge.

I wish you well.

Regards Tony
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
There are many that urgently need and should consider good advice, I would be one of those.
They might have belonged to religions which are averse to idea of individual thinking for themselves, and making it compulsory for them to go by what their leaders have said or their books; otherwise threatening ex-communication. Using ex-communication or worse, in some, even assassination and beheading also is OK.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
They might have belonged to religions which are averse to idea of individual thinking for themselves, and making it compulsory for them to go by what their leaders have said or their books; otherwise threatening ex-communication. Using ex-communication or worse, in some, even assassination and beheading also is OK.

Maybe, maybe not. ;)

Regards Tony
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
You might want to run that by women, homosexual, transexuals, slaves, Native Americans and several others. Abrahamic religious doctrine was central in to the oppression and suffering of these people.

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When people create atrocities in the name of God, God has nothing to do with it.
Further if it is a Muslim God, the only true God has nothing to do with it.
It is true like wise to a Trinitarian God, Mormon God, the God written in the Bible has nothing to do with it.

tenor.gif


Just a case of mistaken identity.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
View attachment 40588View attachment 40589

When people create atrocities in the name of God, God has nothing to do with it.
Further if it is a Muslim God, the only true God has nothing to do with it.
It is true like wise to a Trinitarian God, Mormon God, the God written in the Bible has nothing to do with it.

tenor.gif


Just a case of mistaken identity.
My god is so powerless, he can't even keep his own people from committing atrocities.
 

MJFlores

Well-Known Member
My god is so powerless, he can't even keep his own people from committing atrocities.

That is something people should understand why.

To simplify things - there are two kinds of people - God's people and Not God's people.

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God's chosen people - those who are born of God and thus cannot commit these atrocities.

1 John 3:9 New International Version (NIV)
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

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The Devil's children - those who were deceived, lovers of themselves and filled with love of money - the source of all evil

1 John 3:10 New International Version (NIV)
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

So, there are people who belong to God [and they are few] and people who does not belong to God [and they are many]. Those who do not belong to God commit atrocities, as we have seen some of them.

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images
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The atrocities have to happen to mark the ends of the earth and the latter times.

Matthew 24:6 New International Version (NIV)
You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.

2 Timothy 3:1 New International Version (NIV)
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days.

So that all people in the ends of the earth would prepare for their salvation:

Isaiah 45:22 New International Version (NIV)
Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Chrisitan use the Old Testament, so do the Jews and the Muslims. The Vedic are thousands of years older than all those religions and no part of the Old Testament are used within Vedic texts. That they have superficial resemblence doesn't mean the belong to the same familly.




That doesn't excuse or diminish the fact that Abrahamic Religion have supported and made the apology of slavery, homophobia, misogyny and a variety of other crapulous beliefs.
When the world falls into barbarism (as it occasionally does for decades on decades) then we ought to be able to rely upon Christianity to soften and limit that barbarism. Why didn't it succeed at this during the period of American Expansion? Its an apt complaint, but doesn't combine these three religions into a pack or differentiate them from other religions. All of the religions have failed your test. All societies have, too. All people have with few exceptions. Are you an exception? Are you not old testament, too? Have you surpassed it? Has anyone?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.
Were you not born in sin? Jesus had to die on cross because of you.
Most people in history have homophobic periods or periods in which they persecute homosexuals. The Mayans did. The Japanese did.
Hinduism never persecuted LGBTQ. They were always a fun part of life and religion. A famous one was a general in Pandava army in Mahabharata, Shikhandi. They have their own religious order now. There Chief is a qualified Engineer from a well-known University - Banaras Hindu University.

kinnar akhara - Google Search
KinnarAkhara.jpg
 
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epronovost

Well-Known Member
All of the religions have failed your test. All societies have, too.

What test?

All people have with few exceptions. Are you an exception?

I would say the majority of people have a much better sense of ethic, fairness and morality than the one espoused by abrahamic religions even if they are themselves belonging to one of those creeds.

Are you not old testament, too? Have you surpassed it? Has anyone?

I'm an atheist. I do not take the old tertament for anything else than jewish pseudo-history and mythology. The New Testament is nothing more to me than christian mythology and I view Qu'ran in exactly the same way. I do not take advice on morality or ethics from any of those books and even the zealots take them with a grain of salt here and there. The idea of slavery or of sole male ownership of thei children isn't very popular for good reason these days.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What test?
I'm referring to the ethical tests you've put forward for grouping religions into the Abrahamic category which is some sort of test that you don't apply to other religions equally. It why I've pointed out that its an arbitrary means of categorizing.


I would say the majority of people have a much better sense of ethic, fairness and morality than the one espoused by abrahamic religions even if they are themselves belonging to one of those creeds.
I keep pointing out there isn't one espoused by the abrahamic religions. You keep claiming there is. If so nobody seems to agree on what it is. Also where in the world are people more ethical and fair? I don't think that claim is supportable, either.

I'm an atheist. I do not take the old tertament for anything else than jewish pseudo-history and mythology. The New Testament is nothing more to me than christian mythology and I view Qu'ran in exactly the same way. I do not take advice on morality or ethics from any of those books and even the zealots take them with a grain of salt here and there. The idea of slavery or of sole male ownership of thei children isn't very popular for good reason these days.
Its irrelevant to the conversation that you are an atheist. You're talking about three religions like they are all the same, teach the same things and are worse ethically than all other religions and societies without any religions. You also claim that they share the 'Old testament' in common, but they don't. You could toss the Old Testament and all three could keep right on going as they are now. Admittedly Jews would miss it terribly, but they'd have their Talmud and traditions. Christians would have the NT and saints. Muslims wouldn't even blink.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
I'm referring to the ethical tests you've put forward for grouping religions into the Abrahamic category which is some sort of test that you don't apply to other religions equally. It why I've pointed out that its an arbitrary means of categorizing.

Categorising religion by their origin and the fact that they share scriptures, mythology, deity, pseudo-history, history and tradition in common isn't arbitrary. Judaism, Islam and Christianity are all parents religion that all derive from Ancient Hebrews religious beliefs and traditions. There is no "ethical test" to belong into abrahamic religion. To be an abrahamic religion, you need to be derived from Ancient Hebrews religious beliefs and traditions which is the case for Christians, Jews and Muslims.

You're talking about three religions like they are all the same, teach the same things and are worse ethically than all other religions and societies without any religions. You also claim that they share the 'Old testament' in common, but they don't.

I'm sorry that you ignore the fact that half the christian Bible is the OT, all of judaism is basically the OT and the commentary on the OT and the Qu'ran copied large section of the OT and even some portion of the NT. These religion are cousins. They aren't identical of course, but they have a lot of similarity, especially when it comes to ethics and morality.

I do not believe these religions are the worst in all of humanity. I would probably reserve that place to some solar cults and millenialist sects. I do believe they offer terrible ethical and moral lessons and are authoritarian in design; that folks would be more moral and ethicaly sound if they rejected large stretches of the moral and ethical lessons of both those texts for example, support for slavery, misogyny, homophobia and support of monarchism.

You could toss the Old Testament and all three could keep right on going as they are now. Admittedly Jews would miss it terribly, but they'd have their Talmud and traditions. Christians would have the NT and saints. Muslims wouldn't even blink.

The Talmud is a collection of rabinic commentary on the Tanakh (the Old Testament). The Qu'ran contains a full reproduction of several books of the Old Testament and contains references to both the New and Old Testament. Of course, the NT makes reference to the OT and one cannot read one without knowing the other in Christianity. All these religions share a lot in common and a core of scripture and beliefs. How can you divorce judaism from the Tanakh and the Talmud? How can you divorce Christian from the Bible (half of which is the OT) and how can you divorce Islam from a portion of the Qu'ran? This doesn't make any sense.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
So you agree that might makes right; that God is your God because he is strong.

I keep Bible God as my God, because He is good, wise, truthful and loving. Also, because I believe He has created as said in the Bible. And because He has created and given life, He has also the right to decide how long life He gives. And I don’t think there is any intelligent reason to complain, even if no one would life eternally.

PS: what makes you say that God didn't "reproduce life". He did made stuff in his own image. And sterile couples can have children thanks to in vitro fertilisation or even cloning if someone ever wanted to sell that service.

I believe things went as the Bible tells. Cloning is also not same as giving life, because it uses already living cells.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Categorising religion by their origin and the fact that they share scriptures, mythology, deity, pseudo-history, history and tradition in common isn't arbitrary.
Might be nice to be able to say Jews and Christians and Muslims were really just one Abrahamic group. I think people wish too hard that saying it could make it be true. I'll try to keep this short.

Let me point out some of the more extreme differences that should not be glossed over. The pseudo history if any is not shared. That, in particular, is rejected by each of the other. They don't share tradition in common, either. In your post you mention 'Old Testament' which is the Christian term that is a rejection of Jewish scripture and of Jewish ways. Muslims also reject the 'Old testament' as they also reject Christian 'New testament' scripture as corrupt. This is hardly sharing common history or tradition or teachings or really even 'Pseudo history'.

Jews also share no scripture in common with Christians or Muslims, never canonizing any Christian scripture or Muslim scripture, and one of the common tenants to become a Jew is to reject Christianity, and a Muslim may not believe in the crucifixion of Jesus. These are rejections of Christianity. Each rejects the other. Its makes no sense to categorize them together unless you wish to say to them that they are worthless, because if you were to combine them all into one there would be nothing. Their beliefs and values would cancel.

Judaism, Islam and Christianity are all parents religion that all derive from Ancient Hebrews religious beliefs and traditions. There is no "ethical test" to belong into abrahamic religion. To be an abrahamic religion, you need to be derived from Ancient Hebrews religious beliefs and traditions which is the case for Christians, Jews and Muslims.
Though Christian liturgy might be barely recognizable to a Jew it is Roman. It does claim to copy Judaism's design, however Christianity, like Roman culture, borrows from all cultures brazenly viewing them all as sources of the truth of God, not just Jewish culture. To Jews this is mixture (though they may borrow many practical things from other cultures such as food recipes). Judaism does not anticipate finding God's truth in outside sources like a Hopi Indian ritual, but Christianity does. Muslims don't derive from Christians or Jews as far as everyone knows. Instead they appear around 600CE condemning both Christianity and Judaism as corruptions and false copies of Islam. This isn't shared history to me. To me it looks like opposition in all three directions.

I do not believe these religions are the worst in all of humanity. I would probably reserve that place to some solar cults and millenialist sects. I do believe they offer terrible ethical and moral lessons and are authoritarian in design; that folks would be more moral and ethicaly sound if they rejected large stretches of the moral and ethical lessons of both those texts for example, support for slavery, misogyny, homophobia and support of monarchism.
Much of Christianity is I think going through a long Victorian phase, but it can change to help homosexuals instead of making them outcasts, and there is longstanding discussion and study about it. Reform Jews already support homosexual lives as do Quakers and some liberal (US term) churches. Islam probably is always going to outlaw homosexual living permanently, but I know of homosexuals who live in Islamic countries. They seem to have some way of living there though I don't know if they can be Muslims or not. I think the three religions in question aren't all eye to eye on this topic. The three are increasingly at odds when it comes to this, and they don't share a common teaching. I think it is because they have very little in common.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes. The Abrahamic religious are inheritantly authoritarian, and that is a good thing. The whole point of monotheism is that by having one God, there is no disagreement about what is right and what is wrong. You don't have Nazis out there saying, "well, in our way of thinking, its perfectly GOOD to kill Jews."
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I believe things went as the Bible tells. Cloning is also not same as giving life, because it uses already living cells.
All new life comes from already living cells.

Cloning is the equivalent to the creation of an identical twin.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Yes. The Abrahamic religious are inheritantly authoritarian, and that is a good thing. The whole point of monotheism is that by having one God, there is no disagreement about what is right and what is wrong. You don't have Nazis out there saying, "well, in our way of thinking, its perfectly GOOD to kill Jews."

Except that's precisely what Nazis say. They do think that it's perfectly good and noble to kill jews; that not killing them is condamning the rest of humanity to a perpetual cycle of decadence.
 
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