Are the cultural ideologies of the Middle East irreconcilable with Secularism?

[Penumbra]

Sam Harris and others have pointed out that any attempt to inject secularism into Middle Eastern nations only meets with short-lived success. The problem clearly isn't lack of democracy, in light of increasing favor for a more religious law in secular Turkey.

The question is will the majority of the Middle East ever be ready for secularism? If not, what should be done to end this clash of ideals and prevent what is potentially a recipe for ongoing conflicts?

There are two Muslims in Congress in the United States.

Both of them are extremely liberal Democrats. They're both part of the Progressive Caucus of Congress, which is the most liberal caucus in Congress. One of them, Keith Ellison, is the chair of the Progressive Caucus, so he leads the most liberal Congressional group.

When gay marriage came into effect in his state, he celebrated with a song:

[youtube]SnP6OM5NBH0[/youtube]

So I mean, some Muslims are about as socially liberal and secular as you can get. That's rarely the case overall, but it's an example of some people mixing Islam with full secularism.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

There are two Muslims in Congress in the United States.

Both of them are extremely liberal Democrats. They're both part of the Progressive Caucus of Congress, which is the most liberal caucus in Congress. One of them, Keith Ellison, is the chair of the Progressive Caucus, so he leads the most liberal Congressional group.

When gay marriage came into effect in his state, he celebrated with a song:

[youtube]SnP6OM5NBH0[/youtube]

So I mean, some Muslims are about as socially liberal and secular as you can get. That's rarely the case overall, but it's an example of some people mixing Islam with full secularism.

Certainly I don't deny Muslims can be secular. In a secular country that's especially likely. The Middle East is another matter

 

[Penumbra]

Certainly I don't deny Muslims can be secular. In a secular country that's especially likely. The Middle East is another matter

Well yeah but I mean if it's possible, and people like them are evidence that it is possible, then by definition it's not irreconcilable.

Extremely hard to reconcile, for sure.

 

[MD]

In my experience, Muslims in America have a LOT more in common with republicans than democrats on social matters. On fiscal matters I would say the opposite is true. The only reason most of them vote Democrat is because of Republican foreign policy (although in reality it's more or less the same between both parties). Again these are my experiences.

If the republican party shifted its base from catering to Christian WASPs to something more inclusive many Asians and Hispanics would vote for them.

 

[columbus]

Certainly I don't deny Muslims can be secular. In a secular country that's especially likely. The Middle East is another matter

No kidding. The Muslims in the vid are the ones who don't want to live in the middle east.

In the ME you got people like Isis on the ascendancy.

I have trouble imagining Muslim culture being reconciliable with the modern world. Morality and ethics have made great strides in the last millennium and Islamic culture forbids improvement. The premise that the Quran is the ultimate message from God is why Muslim places are generally so ugly for most of the inhabitants.

And they're getting worse by the day, with no reason to think that will change.

Tom

 

[LuisDantas]

with no reason to think that will change.

Tom

Don't say such a thing. It is always possible to connect to them at a personal level. And as long as that is true, we have hope changing it.

 

[columbus]

Don't say such a thing. It is always possible to connect to them at a personal level. And as long as that is true, we have hope changing it.

Where? How?
I see no possibility of that happening before the clash between Islamic and western culture erupts in global war.
Nobody can win, but the weapons are getting continually more destructive. Drones, suicide bombers dirty bombs, and possibly worst of all will be the nanotech weapons.

And I see no way for the kind of connection you descibe to happen.

Tom

 

[LuisDantas]

Really? The British managed to do that fairly often.

Of course, then they betrayed them. But still.

 

[columbus]

Really? The British managed to do that fairly often.

Of course, then they betrayed them. But still.

Did they?
Or did they adopt the Roman technique of allowing small concessions as long as it was efficient, but not when it wasn't?

It doesn't matter to me. The past is over and the world is as it is now. Islamic religionists are just as willing to use violence to get what they want as Christian capitalists, and for that matter Communists and Mobutu.

I don't believe that is going to change. That is the bottom line.

Tom

 

[LuisDantas]

Did they?
Or did they adopt the Roman technique of allowing small concessions as long as it was efficient, but not when it wasn't?

I won't attempt to fill a role of expert that ill suits me, but my understanding is that you are not far wrong.

Still, I think you are underestimating the reach and significance of the efforts of both Romans and British with their Empires. For all their faults and flaws, they usually made a point of actually being present where their influence was supposed to be felt. They learned from the land, as opposed to blasting its soil and its people and calling it a day.

It doesn't matter to me. The past is over and the world is as it is now. Islamic religionists are just as willing to use violence to get what they want as Christian capitalists, and for that matter Communists and Mobutu.

Pretty much. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy, an arms race that does not have any shame left.

It does not have to be, though.

I don't believe that is going to change. That is the bottom line.

Tom

Nor do I really. On the other hand, it has to, and ultimately it is not even difficult as such. It is just culturally unpalatable.