Are the details important?

[Ashuri10]

Akhi Yahudi, you're a nice guy, whatever I say don't get upset about it, I'm only saying what I see and read, I'm being very honest with things, fair? I hope so

I understand that as a Jew you have mitzvot to follow, but keep in mind that some of these mitzvot cannot be observed today period, and this one does not include the temple mizvot either, I'm talking about the way of life in modern day does not permit for such commandments to be followed because they cannot be established or agreed with in any modern day country, can you honestly tell me that all these 613 laws can be practiced in today's world?

Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

 

[Yid613]

Akhi Yahudi, you're a nice guy, whatever I say don't get upset about it, I'm only saying what I see and read, I'm being very honest with things, fair? I hope so

I’m enjoying this thread. There have been some very good questions.

I understand that as a Jew you have mitzvot to follow, but keep in mind that some of these mitzvot cannot be observed today period, and this one does not include the temple mizvot either, I'm talking about the way of life in modern day does not permit for such commandments to be followed because they cannot be established or agreed with in any modern day country, can you honestly tell me that all these 613 laws can be practiced in today's world?

Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)

As I said in my last post even if due to an intrinsic limitation of the commandment I cannot do it I can always learn about it and teach it. Therefore I would say yes they can be done.

However I know you got a good one up your sleeve. Can’t wait to hear which one.

 

[Ashuri10]

I’m enjoying this thread. There have been some very good questions.

As I said in my last post even if due to an intrinsic limitation of the commandment I cannot do it I can always learn about it and teach it. Therefore I would say yes they can be done.

However I know you got a good one up your sleeve. Can’t wait to hear which one.

There's no harm in learning and teaching based on your faith, however teaching is one thing and doing the commandments is another thing, I'm not gonna be specific about which commandments can be done and which cannot, I provided the list from a Jewish website and it speaks for itself, but to be clear on things, perhaps you can make an exception for every rule out there, but once again these rules cannot be implemented in a modern day developed countries because some of them just don't fit in modern day societies.

Maybe someday Halakha can be observed at its best in Israel, but knowing the people who run Israel today, I think you have a better shot trying to convince an Orthodox Rabbi that Yeshu' is indeed the promised Jewish Messiah

 

[Yid613]

There's no harm in learning and teaching based on your faith, however teaching is one thing and doing the commandments is another thing, I'm not gonna be specific about which commandments can be done and which cannot, I provided the list from a Jewish website and it speaks for itself, but to be clear on things, perhaps you can make an exception for every rule out there, but once again these rules cannot be implemented in a modern day developed countries because some of them just don't fit in modern day societies.

Since we are told that the performance of a commandment includes not only doing but also learning and teaching there must also be a similar spiritual benefit in learning and teaching of them. But if we limit our discussion to only those that can be physically done today the list is certain smaller.

The only ones that I see that can be done but may be at odds with modern day societies would be those related to Servants and Slaves. These were more like what we would call indentured servants but with more rights. Even if it were allowed in modern society it would problem be more trouble than it would be worth. No pretty slave girls.

However a freed servant has the option to convert. I don’t know all of the detail of how this works but I have heard of it used to clear someone of a questionable status. It may also have applications in adoption. These are of course exceptional cases.

We also can be considered servants of G-d and therefore can expect that He will act in accordance with the laws of servants, according us with all the appropriate rights. So can we say that the Jews are practicing slavery?

As servant of G-d we have a task to complete, doing all the commandments. We may not be able complete the task but as a servant we are not free to desist from it.

Maybe someday Halakha can be observed at its best in Israel, but knowing the people who run Israel today, I think you have a better shot trying to convince an Orthodox Rabbi that Yeshu' is indeed the promised Jewish Messiah

In Israel today may of the commandments related to the land are being preformed. Not all of them or as widely as they could be but they are being done. Progress is being made.

 

[Willamena]

Even if we do not understand this, or its spiritual implications...

Yeah; that would be the "beyond us" part.

 

[Lux rationis]

He designed His commandments accordingly they are eternal. Any spatial or temporal limitations needed are part of the commandment itself, part of the details of its observance.

Hmmm...okay...I'll keep this in mind next time I catch myself coveting my neighbor's ox.

 

[Bennettresearch]

As I stated before many of the commandments as part of the details of their observance include limitations. Sacrifices can only be made when the Temple is standing. This limitation is intrinsic to the commandment. Not a manmade limitation to make things easy.

However we observe the commandments not just by doing them. But also by learning, teaching, and assisting other to do them. I cannot make a sacrifice today but I still can learn about it and teach it. This also allows me to do the commandment given to women that as a man I would not otherwise be able to do.

Within the limitations intrinsic to the commandments and in the ways specified in the Torah they can all be done. What G-d didn’t know we would have computers and cell phones?

Hi Yid,

Would you guys hurry up and get the Temple built so I can go looking for something to sacrifice?

Craig

 

[Bennettresearch]

Hmmm...okay...I'll keep this in mind next time I catch myself coveting my neighbor's ox.

Hey, as long as you don't do it like that guy did in Enumclaw who got killed doing it to a horse, he got kicked!!!!

Craig

 

[crystalonyx]

Maybe it is easier to take a supposed god out of the equation.

 

[Yid613]

Yeah; that would be the "beyond us" part.

But still doable by following the instruction we were given.

Hmmm...okay...I'll keep this in mind next time I catch myself coveting my neighbor's ox.

If he said don’t covet you neighbors BMW they would not have understood. So He said ox. We can infer, using the proper method of expounding the Torah, BMW.

Hi Yid,

Would you guys hurry up and get the Temple built so I can go looking for something to sacrifice?

Craig

We working on it, but you guys haven’t exactly been helpful theses last couple thousand years.
You may not have to look far. Some items were purchased from the Temple. This was done because they had to be ritualy pure. It was difficult for people to maintain the proper level of ritual purity.

Hey, as long as you don't do it like that guy did in Enumclaw who got killed doing it to a horse, he got kicked!!!!

Craig

Actually a Kohainim (priest) perform the service for you and then returned the parts that you could keep. So you’re safe.

Maybe it is easier to take a supposed god out of the equation.

Easier yes, but misses the whole point. We do the commandment to achieve a desired result. We can only see the effect of our action in the physical world. We need G-d’s help to achieve the proper result in the spiritual worlds.

Reb Carlin gave a Shiur about making things easyer.
YouTube - George Carlin - Ten Commandments

 

[Wandered Off]

The rub is to figure out which details we should be following. We could be carefully not mixing our fabric threads when really the Code of Ur-Nammu was the right set of details instead. Missing that little detail could make the rest rather moot.

 

[Yid613]

The rub is to figure out which details we should be following. We could be carefully not mixing our fabric threads when really the Code of Ur-Nammu was the right set of details instead. Missing that little detail could make the rest rather moot.

One has to search for the truth. He tried it the other way but we always sinned. Fear of G-d only goes so far. We are stubborn we have to figure it out for ourselves. When we do find the path to the truth we follow it willingly, with love.

 

[Lux rationis]

If he said don’t covet you neighbors BMW they would not have understood. So He said ox. We can infer, using the proper method of expounding the Torah, BMW.

But here, Yid, you're leading us down the very slippery slope that you were initially railing against, i.e., substituting conceptual adherence for strict adherence to Torah law. Your premise question was whether or not the details were important. Inference replaces details with generalities, hence the details are lost whenever we expound through inference. You can follow a historico-critical exegesis or you can be a literalist, but you can't just flip from one to the other according to which method yields the more convenient interpretation.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I called Tech Support about my e-mail problem. After explaining the problem they told me to read the !@#$% manual and follow the instructions. I’ve questioned the Rabbi’s regarding my observance of the commandments. They gave me the same answer, although phrased in a much nicer way.

Playing with your analogy a bit more, I've often found valid ways of doing things with computer programs that weren't mentioned in the manual, and in some cases, I've come across poorly-written or outdated manuals that were actually flat-out wrong.

As I stated before many of the commandments as part of the details of their observance include limitations. Sacrifices can only be made when the Temple is standing. This limitation is intrinsic to the commandment. Not a manmade limitation to make things easy.

Is that really a limitation, or is it more of an impossible situation? Do the commandments to perform sacrifices actually say something like "you must do this... unless someone destroys the temple some time after this has been written"?

 

[Yid613]

But here, Yid, you're leading us down the very slippery slope that you were initially railing against, i.e., substituting conceptual adherence for strict adherence to Torah law. Your premise question was whether or not the details were important. Inference replaces details with generalities, hence the details are lost whenever we expound through inference. You can follow a historico-critical exegesis or you can be a literalist, but you can't just flip from one to the other according to which method yields the more convenient interpretation.

Yeh I gave you the quick answer. Let’s look at it properly.

"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, his manservant, his maid-servant, his ox, his a$$, nor anything that is your neighbor's." - Shemot (Exodus) 20:14

So we have specific items, house, wife, manservant, maid-servant, ox, and a$$ followed by a general rule, "anything that is your neighbors". We know from what Moses learned on Mt. Sinai that when a specification is followed by a general rule all that is contained in the general rule applies. Therefore the specific items are not to limit the general rule but to clarify it.

It is only by examining all the details that we can properly understand this verse. Only then can we properly apply it and say, you cannot covet your neighbors BMW. We have neither added nor subtracted from the commandment it’s only our understanding of it that has increased.

Playing with your analogy a bit more, I've often found valid ways of doing things with computer programs that weren't mentioned in the manual, and in some cases, I've come across poorly-written or outdated manuals that were actually flat-out wrong.

The Torah was not written by Microsoft.:no: Bill Gates is not god. Some might say the devil, but not god. The Torah is perfect it’s our lack of understanding that can cause problems. We have a good manual we just can’t find our glasses.

Is that really a limitation, or is it more of an impossible situation? Do the commandments to perform sacrifices actually say something like "you must do this... unless someone destroys the temple some time after this has been written"?

Interesting point although the difference is really the same. In either case the Temple is the limiting factor that the commandment requires. It does not use your wording.

When the Jews are in exile the Devine Presents also is in exile, not manifested as openly as it previously was. One might say that because of this sacrifices would not accomplish the same function. The Temple could have been destroyed to prevent us from performing a meaningless service. Such a service would be similar to taking the L-d’s name in vain. This might explain why the Temple is required.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yeh I gave you the quick answer. Let’s look at it properly.

"You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, his manservant, his maid-servant, his ox, his a$$, nor anything that is your neighbor's." - Shemot (Exodus) 20:14

So we have specific items, house, wife, manservant, maid-servant, ox, and a$$ followed by a general rule, "anything that is your neighbors". We know from what Moses learned on Mt. Sinai that when a specification is followed by a general rule all that is contained in the general rule applies. Therefore the specific items are not to limit the general rule but to clarify it.

It is only by examining all the details that we can properly understand this verse. Only then can we properly apply it and say, you cannot covet your neighbors BMW. We have neither added nor subtracted from the commandment it’s only our understanding of it that has increased.

IMO, if you're taking things strictly literally, not coveting your neighbor's BMW is implicitly included in "anything that is your neighbor's"; you don't need any sort of inference about BMWs being modern-day oxen.

The Torah was not written by Microsoft.:no: Bill Gates is not god. Some might say the devil, but not god. The Torah is perfect it’s our lack of understanding that can cause problems. We have a good manual we just can’t find our glasses.

Well, that assumes facts not in evidence.

You drew an analogy to instruction manuals; I pointed out that instruction manuals are sometimes wrong. If you're now saying that the Torah isn't really like an instruction manual, then your analogy kind of breaks down, doesn't it?

Interesting point although the difference is really the same. In either case the Temple is the limiting factor that the commandment requires. It does not use your wording.

No... it uses language like this, Leviticus 4:27-31:

27 " 'If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the L-D's commands, he is guilty. 28 When he is made aware of the sin he committed, he must bring as his offering for the sin he committed a female goat without defect. 29 He is to lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and slaughter it at the place of the burnt offering. 30 Then the priest is to take some of the blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. 31 He shall remove all the fat, just as the fat is removed from the fellowship offering, and the priest shall burn it on the altar as an aroma pleasing to the L-D. In this way the priest will make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

This seems to me like a blanket commandment: if you sin unintentionally, you must make a sacrifice in a specific way. No exception is given in the event that the Temple is destroyed.

I recognize that it is impossible to make a sacrifice at an altar if that altar does not exist, but this doesn't change G-d's command, does it? Wouldn't the command remain, but just be impossible to fulfil?

When the Jews are in exile the Devine Presents also is in exile, not manifested as openly as it previously was. One might say that because of this sacrifices would not accomplish the same function. The Temple could have been destroyed to prevent us from performing a meaningless service. Such a service would be similar to taking the L-d’s name in vain. This might explain why the Temple is required.

Is this idea drawn from actual teaching and doctrines, or is it just based on the assumption that God wouldn't demand that people do things that are physically impossible?

 

[Bennettresearch]

But still doable by following the instruction we were given.


If he said don’t covet you neighbors BMW they would not have understood. So He said ox. We can infer, using the proper method of expounding the Torah, BMW.


We working on it, but you guys haven’t exactly been helpful theses last couple thousand years.
You may not have to look far. Some items were purchased from the Temple. This was done because they had to be ritualy pure. It was difficult for people to maintain the proper level of ritual purity.


Actually a Kohainim (priest) perform the service for you and then returned the parts that you could keep. So you’re safe.



Easier yes, but misses the whole point. We do the commandment to achieve a desired result. We can only see the effect of our action in the physical world. We need G-d’s help to achieve the proper result in the spiritual worlds.

Reb Carlin gave a Shiur about making things easyer.
YouTube - George Carlin - Ten Commandments

Hey Yid,

My little joke obviously went over your head but we'll ignore it.

In all due seriousness, weren't there sacrifices performed before the Temple was built? Isn't this a long standing tradition in the OT or have I been reading things that aren't there? And a more important question, do Jews still belive that you can cleanse your sins by sacrificing animals? A bit paganistic isn't it. I can see now why Ezekiel was obsessing over why God allowed the Temple to be destroyed.

Craig

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And a more important question, do Jews still belive that you can cleanse your sins by sacrificing animals? A bit paganistic isn't it.

Plenty of religions believe in animal sacrifice. The idea isn't exclusively Pagan... or intrinsic to all (or even most?) Pagan religions.

 

[Dunemeister]

There have been comments in this thread about the 613 laws not being applicable today because society is "different" and not in accord with them. Well, I have news for you (that shouldn't be news). They didn't "fit" ancient Israel either. It's not as if ancient Israel happily followed the commands they had. They constantly fell into idolatry and therefore evil. That's why prophets were needed after Moses -- to recall the people back to the law! So there's no question about the "fit" of these laws to a society. The point is that the society is supposed to be made to fit the laws. So arguing that the laws "don't fit" actually isn't an argument against them. It may well point to their very necessity! The fact we don't/can't keep them is a stark reminder of the fact that we need them.

 

[Dunemeister]

Is this idea drawn from actual teaching and doctrines, or is it just based on the assumption that God wouldn't demand that people do things that are physically impossible?

It's hard for us to imagine just how central a symbol the temple was for ancient Israel. It was at the very heart of their religion. The temple was the Jewish version of "incarnation": the Shekinah. It was where God really dwelt among His people. Losing it was a disaster on every level: political, religious, economic (and remember that back in the day, these things were not separated in practice or theory). Exiled to Babylon, the Jewish people had to find a way to mimic their cultic practices, and they settled on what would become the Pharisaic (and thence Rabbinic) practice of Torah-study and intensification. Thus they came to see such practices as analogous to ancient sacrifices. The Shekinah rested among the communities that studied Torah.

So the short answer is yes, it had something to do with making adjustments when it was physically impossible to fulfill a law. Indeed, the Galileans of Jesus' day, because they were too far from the Temple, were big fans of the Pharisees and emphasized Torah. In Jerusalem, where the Temple stood, the Sadducees, who controlled the Temple, were dominant, and they emphasized cult.