Are the Gods Too Indifferent to Us to Care Whether We Believe in Them?

[Sunstone]

Are there any rational grounds for supposing that an actual deity would care whether or not a person believed in it? If so, what are those grounds?

Are there any rational grounds for supposing that an actual deity would be unlikely to care whether or not a person believed in it? If so, what are those grounds?

As for myself, I believe that, if the gods exist, then the most reasonable thing to suppose about them, based on the available evidence, is that they are indifferent to us. For instance: Evil befalls good people; good befalls evil people, etc. But if it is reasonable to believe the gods are indifferent to us, then on what grounds can it be asserted that they care what we believe about them?

 

[StarryNightshade]

I'm of the belief that religion is of the benefit of the practitioner, not necessarily for God. When we pray or perform ritual, that it is us contemplating on the Divine.

Then again, that may be a minority view as far as religious people go.

 

[Augustus]

Are there any rational grounds for supposing that an actual deity would care whether or not a person believed in it? If so, what are those grounds?
?

Maybe it's similar to posting something on Facebook cos you think your friends will find it funny then waiting to see if you get any 'likes'. Maybe He gets sad if he doesn't get many

I'm of the belief that religion is of the benefit of the practitioner, not necessarily for God... Then again, that may be a minority view as far as religious people go.

Minority or not, I think it is the correct view and the most rational reason why ritual worship has endured.

 

[Quintessence]

Are there any rational grounds for supposing that an actual deity would care whether or not a person believed in it? If so, what are those grounds?

Yes, if the following conditions are met:

• It is aware of the human
• It is capable of recognizing affects or beliefs in humans, either by reading its internal state or interpreting external behaviors and words
• It is capable of experiencing the affect of care
• It specifically cares about what the human thinks of it

This really isn't different than the presuppositions you would need to make in asking the question "are there any rational grounds for supposing a person would care whether or not another person believed in them." The deity needs to be relatively similar to persons. If your gods are literally believed to be person-like (as opposed to anthropomorphism used as a literary/narrative device or to help us connect with and worship the gods), most of those kinds of gods would meet at least the first three criteria. The fourth is a bit more up in the air, because that becomes a question of that god's personal values.

Are there any rational grounds for supposing that an actual deity would be unlikely to care whether or not a person believed in it? If so, what are those grounds?

Pretty much just the converse of the above:

• It is NOT aware of the human
• It is NOT capable of recognizing affects or beliefs in humans, either by reading its internal state or interpreting external behaviors and words
• It is NOT capable of experiencing the affect of care
• It does NOT specifically care about what the human think of it

Most of the gods I worship on any regular basis will fall into the above, because my gods are dramatically different than persons.

As for myself, I believe that, if the gods exist, then the most reasonable thing to suppose about them, based on the available evidence, is that they are indifferent to us. For instance: Evil befalls good people; good befalls evil people, etc. But if it is reasonable to believe the gods are indifferent to us, then on what grounds can it be asserted that they care what we believe about them?

I thought we were asking about whether or not the gods cared if we believed in them, not if they cared about our personal well-being. Those are different questions. For the question "do gods care if we believe in them" I don't see things like "but bad things happen to good people" as a compelling argument. Then again, being a non-dualist, I wouldn't see that as a compelling argument for anything at all, so... that's possibly neither here nor there.

 

[Sunstone]

I thought we were asking about whether or not the gods cared if we believed in them, not if they cared about our personal well-being. Those are different questions. For the question "do gods care if we believe in them" I don't see things like "but bad things happen to good people" as a compelling argument. Then again, being a non-dualist, I wouldn't see that as a compelling argument for anything at all, so... that's possibly neither here nor there.

Think it through. I'll wait for you.

 

[Sees]

I think it depends on the God, the individual person, and that there are degrees of care concerning our belief and understanding.

To me it is obvious if aware/conscious divine beings exist that they don't focus on having contact with all individuals - going by the vastly different, varying beliefs and experiences of people around the world, past and present.

The matter of interfering and influencing what takes place in a person's head/heart and the events of the world all depend on the nature of the worlds/reality itself and possibilities/limitations of interaction.

In pagan traditions Primal Laws/Laws of Nature are often seen as supreme over the concern of deities themselves, even if such laws are actually aspects of themselves...and the absolute master/micromanager aspect is absent.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Are there any rational grounds for supposing that an actual deity would care whether or not a person believed in it? If so, what are those grounds?

Are there any rational grounds for supposing that an actual deity would be unlikely to care whether or not a person believed in it? If so, what are those grounds?

As for myself, I believe that, if the gods exist, then the most reasonable thing to suppose about them, based on the available evidence, is that they are indifferent to us. For instance: Evil befalls good people; good befalls evil people, etc. But if it is reasonable to believe the gods are indifferent to us, then on what grounds can it be asserted that they care what we believe about them?

Generally, at least on Earth, the only creatures that demonstrate care for others are ones that have evolved to either raise young or live in group settings.

If caring is an adaptation - and I think it is - then we should not expect it in any being that didn't undergo some sort of pressure to need to care.

If you want an earthly example of an intelligent being that lives a solitary existence, look at the octopus. I would expect that an extraterrestrial inteligent being would be no more caring than an octopus, and less relatable to us.

The idea that God cares about us in a social way is an anthropomorphism. Social creatures have social gods.

 

[Quintessence]

Think it through. I'll wait for you.

It would be appreciated if you would instead explain the train of logic you went through on those thoughts instead of expecting me to be a mind reader. Especially when you're talking to someone who is a non-dualist and doesn't think in terms of "good" and "bad."

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes, if the following conditions are met:

• It is aware of the human
• It is capable of recognizing affects or beliefs in humans, either by reading its internal state or interpreting external behaviors and words
• It is capable of experiencing the affect of care
• It specifically cares about what the human thinks of it

This really isn't different than the presuppositions you would need to make in asking the question "are there any rational grounds for supposing a person would care whether or not another person believed in them." ...

So, what you're actually saying is:

If it's human-like and caring is will be human-like and care.​

OK …

 

[Jainarayan]

I think it depends on the God, the individual person, and that there are degrees of care concerning our belief and understanding.

To me it is obvious if aware/conscious divine beings exist that they don't focus on having contact with all individuals - going by the vastly different, varying beliefs and experiences of people around the world, past and present.

Very much this. There is a person at another forum who is a rock-hard polytheist (not a criticism or judgement, a description). She believes in many Otherworlds. For example, Hela rules one Underworld, Hades rules another Underworld, Yama rules yet another. Yama and Hades may take absolutely no interest in me whatsoever, for whatever reason. But for whatever reason I am in the Otherworld ruled and populated by the Aesir, Hel is the Underworld I would (probably) go to if I can't get a room in Bilskirnir. I'm trying Trivago, Hotwire and Expedia to see if there are any rooms available.

 

[Willamena]

Are there any rational grounds for supposing that an actual deity would care whether or not a person believed in it? If so, what are those grounds?

Are there any rational grounds for supposing that an actual deity would be unlikely to care whether or not a person believed in it? If so, what are those grounds?

I favour an anti-eliminative approach, that deity is necessarily neither caring nor uncaring, different nor indifferent.

Difference and caring are human concepts.

 

[LuisDantas]

Are there any rational grounds for supposing that an actual deity would care whether or not a person believed in it? If so, what are those grounds?

Doesn't the God of Abraham state in no unclear terms that he does? To the point of claiming to be jealous, even?

I believe some other deities, particularly in Paganism and Shinto, are also somewhat guaranteed to care about those who believe in them and respect them, but I am not well-informed about the specifics. As I understand it, it is relatively typical for some form of personal link to the worshiper to exist, by ancestry or dedication perhaps.

Are there any rational grounds for supposing that an actual deity would be unlikely to care whether or not a person believed in it? If so, what are those grounds?

The God of Abraham, despite his own claim, does fit that bill IMO. He is just too transcendental and all-powerful for his caring to make sense.

 

[InChrist]

I don't think humans would have any factual information concerning gods were it not for divine revelation from the God who created heaven and earth who plainly states that all such gods don't have an interest in caring for humanity because they are not real and simply do not exist....
But where are your gods that you have made for yourselves? Let them arise, If they can save you in the time of your trouble; For according to the number of your cities Are your gods, O Judah. (Jeremiah 2:28)
Will a man make gods for himself, Which are not gods? (Jeremiah 16:20)
Thus you shall say to them: “The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under these heavens.”(Jeremiah 10:11)

Yet, on the other hand, the Creator God's love and care for humanity is revealed and demonstrated throughout the scriptures far too many times to post here.

"Twice the Apostle John categorically stated that God is love (1 John 4:8,16). Love is one of the warmest words in the English language, and that God is love is one of the most sublime, uplifting, and reassuring truths known to mankind. Love is His nature. It is not merely a friendly attitude He projects. It is the essence of His being. He is always going to act toward us in love because He cannot do otherwise. Love is the way He is."
14. God Is Love | Bible.org

 

[Jainarayan]

I don't think humans would have any factual information concerning gods were it not for divine revelation from the God who created heaven and earth who plainly states that all such gods don't have an interest in caring for humanity because they are not real and simply do not exist....

I love circular reasoning.

 

[InChrist]

It's not circular if it's true and if true then it's a delusion for humans to think they can have any realistic insight or understanding into the spirit realm without revealed information which comes from a trustworthy source. I just choose to believe that the only trusted source of such information is from the God who created heaven and earth, rather than anything less.

 

[Jainarayan]

The circularity is that the bible says it's true and is the divine word of God. I have no more proof the Bible is the divine word of God than I have proof that little naked space people are running amok on Earth. If it's a matter of belief and faith, then OK great. None of us has any proof our beliefs (proof of beliefs is kind of an oxymoron) are true.

 

[LuisDantas]

It's not circular if it's true

It is circular even if it is true. At best, you can claim that it is circular because God wanted it so.

and if true then it's a delusion for humans to think they can have any realistic insight or understanding into the spirit realm without revealed information which comes from a trustworthy source. I just choose to believe that the only trusted source of such information is from the God who created heaven and earth, rather than anything less.

How can you tell that you have met such a God?

 

[InChrist]

The circularity is that the bible says it's true and is the divine word of God. I have no more proof the Bible is the divine word of God than I have proof that little naked space people are running amok on Earth. If it's a matter of belief and faith, then OK great. None of us has any proof our beliefs (proof of beliefs is kind of an oxymoron) are true.

Yes, the Bible claims to be true, but it and the God of the Bible also prove to be true to anyone who sincerely searches for such proof.
And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13

 

[Awoon]

I'm really tired of believing.

 

[InChrist]

How can you tell that you have met such a God?

I can tell I have met such a God because God has let me know and assured me of His Presence as He will let anyone know who truly seeks to know. It is a personal revelation of God to each individual, so the knowledge and understanding takes place in a unique and special way for each person. I will say that it never contradicts His revealed word in the scriptures, nor does it involve blind faith or checking one's mind at the door, since the Creator made humans in His image which includes using one's mind and reason.