Are there any contradictions in the Bible?

[sojourner]

I have no problem with "Yahweh" either except that it is a transliteration rather than an translation. The reason that we have kept "Jehovah", is that it is the translation of the divine name in English...it keeps the meaning, whereas "Yahweh" is only thought to be how the Jews may have pronounced The divine name.

You're making excuses. "Jehovah" is a much later attempt at placing pronounceable vowel sounds into YHWH, and, in fact, mushes "YHWH" with "Adonai." It no more "keeps the meaning" than "Yahweh" does.

 

[sojourner]

All you have to do is know what the Bible teaches as opposed to what the churches teach.....then you know what the made up nonsense is.

I call B.S. The bible is the church's teaching, so there can be no separation between what "the bible teaches" and what "the church teaches."

 

[sojourner]

An example of where the Tetragrammaton should be read in the NT, was when Jesus got up in the synagogue to read the prophesy in Isaiah, the Tetragrammaton was included in the reading. So do you believe that the son of God, who said he had come "to make his Father's name known" would have followed Jewish superstition and not read God's wonderful name into the text?

That's not what the phrase "Make God's name known" means. Jesus would have followed the religious teaching of the day, and not pronounced "YHWH."

 

[metis]

Let me just add that we don't say the Tetragrammaton name for God, not out of "Jewish superstition" (see post #377), but out of respect.

 

[sojourner]

Let me just add that we don't say the Tetragrammaton name for God, not out of "Jewish superstition" (see post #377), but out of respect.

Yeah, that struck me as disingenuous and dismissive.

 

[Vishvavajra]

Let me just add that we don't say the Tetragrammaton name for God, not out of "Jewish superstition" (see post #377), but out of respect.

It would be entirely reasonable to assume that other cultures do things consciously, for reasons that they more or less understand and that make sense to them in their context. Unfortunately, the standard JW view is that all non-JW people do what they do out of ignorance, corruption, and the deluding power of Satan.

JayJayDee is going to make me regret saying I was on their side earlier. So much for olive branches.

The fact is that yes, the Tetragrammaton represents a proper name, and it is clear that the prohibition against saying it aloud in full came fairly late (it persists in various permutations in theonyms and in full form in at least one ancient inscription). However, by the Hellenistic period that prohibition against pronouncing it was a normal part of the culture. Jesus would not have deviated from that tradition, nor is it wrong for modern Jews to follow the tradition. It's their culture and entirely their choice. It's not the place of a Jehovah's Witness to tell Jews how they ought to practice Judaism, just like it's not their place to dictate the terms of Christianity to everyone. And yet...

 

[outhouse]

The reason that we have kept "Jehovah", is that it is the translation of the divine name in English...it keeps the meaning, whereas "Yahweh" is only thought to be how the Jews may have pronounced The divine name

Jehovah is a very late man made creation, and it bears no historicity as gods name what so ever before the name was invented by man. It is only followed by a minority who refuse to recognize what the original culture who used the concept called him,

 

[metis]

It would be entirely reasonable to assume that other cultures do things consciously, for reasons that they more or less understand and that make sense to them in their context. Unfortunately, the standard JW view is that all non-JW people do what they do out of ignorance, corruption, and the deluding power of Satan.

JayJayDee is going to make me regret saying I was on their side earlier. So much for olive branches.

The fact is that yes, the Tetragrammaton represents a proper name, and it is clear that the prohibition against saying it aloud in full came fairly late (it persists in various permutations in theonyms and in full form in at least one ancient inscription). However, by the Hellenistic period that prohibition against pronouncing it was a normal part of the culture. Jesus would not have deviated from that tradition, nor is it wrong for modern Jews to follow the tradition. It's their culture and entirely their choice. It's not the place of a Jehovah's Witness to tell Jews how they ought to practice Judaism, just like it's not their place to dictate the terms of Christianity to everyone. And yet...

Yep. It's not always possible to determine when a particular tradition developed, but we do know that somewhere along the line a decision was made whereas the Tetragrammaton name would only said aloud by the high priest during Yom Kippur and at the Temple. When the Temple was destroyed in 70 c.e., that name ceased to be used, and supposedly will only be reinstated to be said aloud if the Temple is rebuilt, but only if the Messiah does the reinstating.

That's my understanding, although I don't really get hung up on such matters.

 

[sojourner]

The removal and substitution of God's name from his own word is a travesty.

Since Hebrew has no vowels, from the earliest it was written down, it was written "YHVH." By the time the Masoretes added the vowel points to the texts, the name had already not been pronounced. No one has committed a "travesty" by "removing" anything. However, using your own standards, I'd have to say that "Jehovah" is a gross mispronunciation. What a travesty...

Or a whole lot of something insulting to God and his son......

I rather suspect God is larger than petty human emotions, such as insult.

When Jesus said "hallowed be thy name"...he did not say "hallowed be thy title". Neither "God" nor "Lord" is a name.

"El" is a name. El is God's name. Where do you think we get other names such as Beth-el, Peni-el, Jo-el, Ezeki-el, Isra-el? Why don't you guys get your panties in a wad over God's name "El?" Maybe that's the name that's hallowed. Or, maybe "hallowed by your name" means something different to the biblical writers than it does to you.

 

[outhouse]

Why don't you guys get your panties in a wad over God's name "El?"

Or that El was originally not Yahweh. The faithful have a hard time choking that common knowledge.

 

[Vishvavajra]

I rather suspect God is larger than petty human emotions, such as insult.

Yes, God had better be beyond such things, or else God is nothing more than a mask for the human ego. Emotions are things we animals have evolved for specific reasons. They rely on our brain structure, hormones, etc. I can't fathom how a nonphysical being without those organs would feel emotions like that. It's just more projecting.

"El" is a name. El is God's name. Where do you think we get other names such as Beth-el, Peni-el, Jo-el, Ezeki-el, Isra-el? Why don't you guys get your panties in a wad over God's name "El?" Maybe that's the name that's hallowed. Or, maybe "hallowed by your name" means something different to the biblical writers than it does to you.

El is in fact the name with the earliest attestation, going all the way back to the bronze-age writings of the Canaanites of Ugarit. Yeah, it turns out that the Judaic god, like all gods, has a number of different names. Some modern people have chosen to stick on one, but that would be odd practice in antiquity. Greco-Roman literature provides ample comparanda in this case.

But I guess some might say that the various forms of El and Elohim and Adonai are also common nouns, whereas Yahweh is uniquely a proper name (probably why it was singled out as the most holy one, since it wouldn't be used casually for anything else). But that also entails certain assumptions about how names work (not to mention divine names) that come from modern naming conventions, which don't map onto ancient naming conventions very closely, much less divine epithets.

 

[outhouse]

But I guess some might say that the various forms of El and Elohim and Adonai are also common nouns, whereas Yahweh is uniquely a proper name

If I understand you right. Yes and No.


El was also a proper name, in various forms.

Later redacted to one god, and all attributes given to Yahweh.

Yahweh was always Yahweh. With the monotheist redactions, after 622 BC. He took on El and Elohim from northern traditions.

 

[Vishvavajra]

If I understand you right. Yes and No.


El was also a proper name, in various forms.

Later redacted to one god, and all attributes given to Yahweh.

Yahweh was always Yahweh. With the monotheist redactions, after 622 BC. He took on El and Elohim from northern traditions.

Well, the thing about El is that it's one of those names of gods that amounts to making a proper name out of a common word meaning god (cf. Zeus). So while it is a proper name, it's also based on a common noun.

But yeah, Yahweh appears to have been syncretized with El early on. Probably came with the territory of being the sky father.

 

[outhouse]

Probably came with the territory of being the sky father.

The father of all gods. Including Yahweh and Baal his brother.

Asherah first married to El, then later Yahwehs consort.

I loves Els traditions and how far back they go in Mesopotamian history.

 

[sojourner]

The father of all gods. Including Yahweh and Baal his brother.

Asherah first married to El, then later Yahwehs consort.

I loves Els traditions and how far back they go in Mesopotamian history.

What the 'el?!

 

[JayJayDee]

Let me just add that we don't say the Tetragrammaton name for God, not out of "Jewish superstition" (see post #377), but out of respect.

Do you have a Biblical directive for that? Is there a command somewhere that says all those Bible writers who used the Tetragrammaton were somehow being disrespectful?

Why would God reveal his name to Moses and be known by that name for thousands of years of it was disrespectful to say it? Why did God say it was his 'memorial name forever' if he thought it was not respectful to use it?

I am at a complete loss to understand this "respect" thing. Some cannot even write "G-d" because of this same mentality....are all vowels somehow disrespectful then?

 

[truthofscripture]

Do you have a Biblical directive for that? Is there a command somewhere that says all those Bible writers who used the Tetragrammaton were somehow being disrespectful?

Why would God reveal his name to Moses and be known by that name for thousands of years of it was disrespectful to say it? Why did God say it was his 'memorial name forever' if he thought it was not respectful to use it?

I am at a complete loss to understand this "respect" thing. Some cannot even write "G-d" because of this same mentality....are all vowels somehow disrespectful then?

I've tried having the same conversation many times with those of the Jewish faith, and it would be easier to hit yourself in the head with a hammer, than to wait for a respectful and intelligent conversation about the fear of using Jehovah's name. They prefer any form of title, without spelling the whole title, rather than speak or type His name. I've never been able to get a satisfying answer, or even one that made much sense to the question, and believe me, I've tried with people I know well.

 

[JayJayDee]

Since Hebrew has no vowels, from the earliest it was written down, it was written "YHVH." By the time the Masoretes added the vowel points to the texts, the name had already not been pronounced. No one has committed a "travesty" by "removing" anything. However, using your own standards, I'd have to say that "Jehovah" is a gross mispronunciation. What a travesty...

The Creator knows his name in any language......English is just one of them. Are they all a travesty then? Will you take the Italians or the Japanese to task over their translation?

I rather suspect God is larger than petty human emotions, such as insult.

Hmmmm....that doesn't explain why he was very angry with his people at times, particularly when they disobeyed him.
Why did he want to exterminate them when they tried his patience too many times? (Ex 32:7-10; Num 16:20; Ezek 22:31) Human emotions? Or is it we who are created with his emotions? He can love, be jealous, hate, feel pain at heart and a host of other emotions. If he were emotionless...then we would be also.

"El" is a name. El is God's name. Where do you think we get other names such as Beth-el, Peni-el, Jo-el, Ezeki-el, Isra-el? Why don't you guys get your panties in a wad over God's name "El?" Maybe that's the name that's hallowed. Or, maybe "hallowed by your name" means something different to the biblical writers than it does to you.

I wasn't aware that my panties were in a wad.

Names given to Israelite children were often combined with El (meaning “God”) or an abbreviation of the divine name Jehovah. Such names could express the hope of parents, reflect their appreciation for having been blessed with offspring, or make acknowledgment of God. Examples are Jehdeiah (possibly, May Jehovah Feel Glad), Elnathan (God Has Given), Jeberechiah (Jehovah Blesses), Jonathan (Jehovah Has Given), Jehozabad (probably, Jehovah Has Endowed), Eldad (possibly, God Has Loved), Abdiel (Servant of God), Daniel (My Judge Is God), Jehozadak (probably, Jehovah Pronounces Righteous), and Pelatiah (Jehovah Has Provided Escape).

“Ab” (meaning “father”), “ah” (brother), “am” (people), “bath” (daughter), and “ben” (son) were a part of compound names such as Abida (Father Has Known (Me)), Abijah (My Father Is Jehovah), Ahiezer (My Brother Is a Helper), Ammihud (My People Is Dignity), Amminadab (My People Are Willing (Noble; Generous)), Bath-sheba (Daughter of Plenty; possibly, Daughter [Born on] the Seventh [Day]), and Ben-hanan (Son of the One Showing Favor; Son of the Gracious One). “Melech” (king), “adon” (lord), and “baal” (owner; master) were also combined with other words to form such compound names as Abimelech (My Father Is King), Adonijah (Jehovah Is Lord), and Baal-tamar (Owner of the Palm Tree).

We acknowledge that there are facets to Jehovah's name.....but calling our God by his name in our language is not wrong unless God says it is....can you find me a verse in the Bible that states otherwise?

Here are some forms of the divine name in different languages, indicating international acceptance of the form Jehovah. Are all these wrong too?

Awabakal - Yehóa
Bugotu - Jihova
Cantonese - Yehwowah
Danish - Jehova
Dutch - Jehovah
Efik - Jehovah
English - Jehovah
Fijian - Jiova
Finnish - Jehova
French - Jéhovah
Futuna - Ihova
German - Jehova
Hungarian - Jehova
Igbo - Jehova
Italian - Geova
Japanese - Ehoba
Maori - Ihowa
Motu - Iehova
Mwala-Malu - Jihova
Narrinyeri - Jehovah
Nembe - Jihova
Petats - Jihouva
Polish - Jehowa
Portuguese - Jeová
Romanian - Iehova
Samoan - Ieova
Sotho - Jehova
Spanish - Jehová
Swahili - Yehova
Swedish - Jehova
Tahitian - Iehova
Tagalog - Jehova
Tongan - Jihova
Venda - Yehova
Xhosa - uYehova
Yoruba - Jehofah
Zulu - uJehova

 

[sojourner]

Do you have a Biblical directive for that? Is there a command somewhere that says all those Bible writers who used the Tetragrammaton were somehow being disrespectful?

Why would God reveal his name to Moses and be known by that name for thousands of years of it was disrespectful to say it? Why did God say it was his 'memorial name forever' if he thought it was not respectful to use it?

I am at a complete loss to understand this "respect" thing. Some cannot even write "G-d" because of this same mentality....are all vowels somehow disrespectful then?

You don't seem to understand that neither the Jews nor the Christians for the first 1500 years of their history -- nor most Christians today, practice sola scriptura. That's a heretical sentiment dreamed up by Martin Luther during the Reformation. So it doesn't matter if it's a biblical mandate, or not. The Jews have had written scriptural texts for less than half their existence. The practice is very common sense: to name a thing is to have power over a thing. We cannot have power over God, so God's name isn't spoken. Kind of like how royal subjects didn't call monarchs by their name. They addressed them as "Your Majesty."

 

[JayJayDee]

The bible is the church's teaching, so there can be no separation between what "the bible teaches" and what "the church teaches."

That statement is false.

Would you like a discussion on just how much of the church's teachings deviate from the Bible? Many churches are following the traditions of men and not the Bible at all.
I will start a thread if you are up for a scriptural discussion instead of just a slanging match.