• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Are there any contradictions in the Bible?

Vishvavajra

Active Member
It has a lot to do with it actually. You don't seem to take God into account in anything. I take him into account in everything.
That is not an answer.

If anything, Paul is talking about the inadequacy of exoteric knowledge and hinting at a greater revelation that comes after.

Yes there is. Christ reigns for a thousand years after his return. That is a thousand years into the future not a thousand years of the present.....unless of course you believe that Christ's kingdom is ruling the world at present. The kingdom does not rule except by taking the reigns off the devil by force. He will not relinquish his rulership without a fight. (Dan 2:44; 1John 5:19)
Apocalyptic literature by definition cannot be understood in literal terms. Excessive literal-mindedness will obscure the meaning, not illuminate it. The entire point is that it's encrypted (what apocalyptic literally means).

I know you will dispute this vigorously and rely on Christendom's learned scholars to sort through the maze, but look at the divided state of Christendom!.....it is proof positive that they are hopelessly lost because of feeding at the wrong table.
No, actually I agree completely with that assessment. The current state of Christianity is a sad story of people missing the forest for the trees for the better part of two millennia.

But as I've mentioned before, I don't rely on specifically Christian scholars. I'm happy to compare notes with them hear their arguments, but there's virtually nothing they have access to that I don't. I hold all assertions to the same set of standards, regardless of who makes them or what their affiliations are. As for apologists, I don't have much use for them, as intellectual integrity goes out the window the moment someone starts at the conclusion and then tries to work backwards.

In any case, I'm perfectly willing to tell mainstream Christians they've got it wrong. I've done so several times on these boards. Most would probably consider me thoroughly heretical, but I'm bound to speak the truth as I see it. Sometimes they'll snipe at each other, and I'll chime in to say they're being unfair and not making a good faith effort to understand each other's positions. They may both be wrong, but it's the divisiveness and tribalism that is the greater wrong. Many of us think we know better than others, but I also believe that you can tell from someone's behavior whether that's really true. Our deep motivation for believing as we do is always a hidden premise that should be brought to light.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Since "Christianity" has everything to do with belief in the Bible
Christianity has everything to do with following Jesus and sharing in his life, death, and resurrection. It has little to do with "belief in the bible."
Jesus himself foretold that Christianity would be infiltrated by imposters who would look for all the world like the real thing initially.
No, later authors, who never met Jesus, wrote that Jesus said that. And, of course, their cultural and societal context was far different from that of Jesus. Even Paul dealt with "super-apostles," who may or may not have been authentic.
Small beginnings led to monumental changes, but gradually introduced over time as the weeds grew. Gradualism works as we all know. Since what we have today is the only Christianity that people have ever known, they are not aware of just how far they are removed from the Christianity that Jesus taught.
First of all, cultural contexts will change belief and practice, bringing different relevant situations to the forefront. Second, Xy was never meant to be kept in stasis under glass. Xy is a living faith, and things that are alive grow and change over time. We look little like our Neanderthal and Homo Erectus forebears, but that makes us no less authentic.
In the first-century Christian congregation, there were no class distinctions.
Well, first, it's not fair to use a writing that is more-or-less second-generation Xy to point to what was going on in the first gen of Xy. Second, 1 Cor was written at least 30 years prior to Matthew, and, in it, Paul certainly deals with class distinctions.
By the second century, a hierarchy of bishops and presbyters had come into existence, resulting in a separation of clergy and laity.
There was a hierarchy in place long before the second century. Paul, himself, writing in the 50s, talks about people who were leaders and deacons, and deals, again, with a group of "super-apostles" in Corinth.
Next, such pagan doctrines as the Trinity, the immortality of the soul, and hellfire came to be accepted by those who claimed to be Christians. (2 Cor 6:14-18)
2 Cor was written in the early 50s -- about 20 years after the crucifixion. 1 Thess. was written about the year 48, about 15 years after the crucifixion. In these two documents, Paul plays with decidedly Platonic thought in his theology. And Mark, Matt and Lk certainly take a Pagan stance in their theology, so I don't think you can hold up the bible as some pure standard, while decrying Pagan influence. Mark's idea of resurrection is decidedly pagan, and the Eucharist is modeled directly on the Roman symposium. So, Xy is rife with Paganism -- even in the bible, which you uphold as THE standard for Christian belief.
Then, in 313 C.E., Roman Emperor Constantine ordered that this apostate form of Christianity be recognized as a lawful religion.
Here's where you make a GIANT leap of assumption. Christianity at that point could hardly be described as "apostate."
By the end of the fourth century, the “Christian” Church, which was actively meddling in politics, was promoted to be the official religion of the Roman Empire, and it became known as the Roman Catholic Church.
No. It wasn't known as the Roman Catholic Church until after the Great Schism in 1054. And, FYI, the church was "meddling in politics" from the beginning. Jesus was executed as an act of capital punishment for sedition. That's "meddling in politics."
Those I believe are the facts, no matter what the church says.
Your belief of what are "facts" is decidedly wrong. No matter what Watchtower says.
What is "myth" is a matter of opinion. Many myths have a basis in fact, but somewhat embellished by human imagination over time. Just because something was relegated to a myth doesn't mean there was not some truth in its essence.
I just don't think you have a dog in this hunt, because it's clear that you have no idea what constitutes "myth." What is myth is a matter of literary definition, and they have truth -- not fact -- at their base.
The Genesis account of the flood is very likely the basis for Greek mythology with its gods and demi-gods.
Perhaps, but the Genesis flood account is an obvious rip-off of the Gilgamesh Epic.
That might be true except that many of those scholars were blind in their own bias towards Christendom's doctrines.
No. What separates the men from the boys in the biblical scholarship game, is that scholars are trained to not let their biases get in the way. Many times, scholars are taken to task for asserting things that the church simply doesn't like.
Forcing scripture to say what you want to believe is an art form for Christendom.
It seems the JWs are masters at this sort of thing, so I'm not surprised that that's the first thing you all usually accuse the rest of the church of doing. Since the texts are polyvalent, interpretation is rather more flexible than you imagine.
They count on the fact that the majority of their adherents are Biblically illiterate.
Actually, the dynamic is usually the reverse. People don't like for the experts to tell them what they think, and when the experts tell them stuff based on solid scholarship, they become petulant and leave. In order to keep that from happening, many experts acquiesce to the illiterate masses.
It has been an introduced notion over the centuries that the priest or minister knows it all for his flock, and that somehow let's them off from having to know much at all
You really have no idea how much biblical training the average clergy with standing has under her/his belt.
ust show up for a Bible reading that is never explained and some meaningless ritual and make sure you bring your money to pay your way into heaven.
1) The whole point of the sermon is to expound on the text. 2) ritual is never "meaningless." If you don't get anything out of it, it's because you're willfully Not. Paying. Attention.
3) I've been involved in A. Lot. of churches, and have never, ever, been required to "buy my way into heaven." This is nothing but cheap provocation and ignorant dismissal.
Without those qualities, which are a by-product of God's holy spirit...you have no Christianity....no church....and therefore no relationship with God.
Well, since you just claimed that scholars let their biased beliefs get in the way and are, therefore, "wrong" in their machinations, one should think that not having a relationship with God would be a good thing, as far as biblical scholarship is concerned. Why are you now knocking it as "essential" for such endeavors? Make up your mind!
You can keep your textural criticism for what its worth at the end of the day......whatever you envision that to be.
Since it is that work that provides a basis for proper interpretation, it's worth quite a bit.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
"Scripture" in the first century is not what scripture became after the Christian Bible was completed.
Of course not. Gospels had to be written, and decisions made as to what the baseline was going to be for the canon. Some scriptures (like Thomas and the Gospel of the Hebrews) were unknown at the time of canonization, but probably should have been otherwise included.
The Bible we have today is the sum of all scripture, not just the NT
No it's not. The Protestant canon is decidedly smaller than that of other churches. There are many other scriptural texts that were left out of the canon.
incorporating all we need to know from beginning to end. It takes us from creation to a thousand years into the future. It is now complete...we need nothing more.
...except for the stuff Martin Luther took out, such as Wisdom, Maccabees, etc., and stuff like the Didache, Thomas, the Gospel of the Hebrews, etc.
Jesus and his apostles used the Hebrew Scriptures as a basis for all they taught. The Christian scriptures add weight to everything that is taught about Jesus and his role as Messiah. We have the complete word of God to show us the way to life....accept it or reject it....it's up to the individual.
It's not quite that cut-and-dried or naive.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
Perhaps, but the Genesis flood account is an obvious rip-off of the Gilgamesh Epic.
Yep, and it's hard to argue against. Too many little details are similar, right down to the releasing of three birds before sighting land, for it to be a coincidence. And of course, we know that the Mesopotamian Flood literature (of which the Gilgamesh is just one example) is of vastly greater antiquity even than the original texts that were spliced together to make Genesis, so the fact that the Hebrew version is based on the Mesopotamian version is incontrovertible.

The Greek version is probably based indirectly on the Mesopotamian version, probably through an Anatolian or Phoenician intermediary. There's no evidence of Greek interaction with pre-Exilic Hebrews, and their account isn't really similar to that of Genesis in any way, so it's not plausible that the Genesis account is the source for the Greek Flood myth. In fact, all Eurasian Flood myths can probably be traced back to Mesopotamia.

It seems the JWs are masters at this sort of thing, so I'm not surprised that that's the first thing you all usually accuse the rest of the church of doing. Since the texts are polyvalent, interpretation is rather more flexible than you imagine.
In my experience, the plank in their own eye is this: Interpreting the Bible is something others do, which is how they get all these wrong ideas. JWs just read it as it is with no interpretation, which is how they magically see all the true messages that others have missed. The irony should be obvious, but it isn't to them.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
In my experience, the plank in their own eye is this: Interpreting the Bible is something others do, which is how they get all these wrong ideas. JWs just read it as it is with no interpretation, which is how they magically see all the true messages that others have missed. The irony should be obvious, but it isn't to them.
Of course, anytime one reads something, one is engaging in interpretation -- whether it be thorough and relatively objective, or simplistic and biased.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Christianity is older than the Christian scriptures. If it weren't, then they would never have been written in the first place. To say that there can't be Christians until after there are Christian writings for them to believe in is to posit a time paradox that even Doctor Who couldn't make sense of.
No, no, no! You're totally wrong!!!

Doctor Who could make sense out of any time paradox... hmff...
 
Top