I would never be able to prove to ANYONE that there is a God. I can say that a faith was good for me, I can show how a FAITH in God have turned people's lives around, but I could never and would never even attempt to try and prove God to anyone.
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Are there any good arguments for God?
- Thread starter Tiberius
- Start date
allfoak
Alchemist
@outhouse, @ImmortalFlame
In regards to the question of the eternal existence of light i can not be certain.
As humans it seems we have never been without it, since it is a necessary element to our survival it is likely it has always existed.
Using light as a metaphor for knowledge has also been around as long as we have.
Given these two things to be true i think i am safe in continuing to use the term light in the manner in which i use it.
In regards to the question of the eternal existence of light i can not be certain.
As humans it seems we have never been without it, since it is a necessary element to our survival it is likely it has always existed.
Using light as a metaphor for knowledge has also been around as long as we have.
Given these two things to be true i think i am safe in continuing to use the term light in the manner in which i use it.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
How does that make sense? Our survival is also dependent on liquid water and vegetables, but they haven't always existed.
You cannot assert something is "eternal" just because it has been around for at least as long as we have. They're not the same thing.
allfoak
Alchemist
Water and food have not always existed?
They are not?
There is no proof to the contrary that we are not eternal.
Science has not proven otherwise so i suppose i can assert anything i please.
Others assert that the eternal does not exist based on science's in ability to prove otherwise.
Why is it i cannot assert the opposite to be true with as much conviction as anyone else does?
Is it not in the end just belief?
Or is it?
Is it possible to know these things?
I would say it is possible, others would say not.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Yep.
Correct.
There's also no proof that we aren't all giraffes in disguise. You made the claim that we are, you have to support it.
You can assert whatever you want, but you should provide evidence for it before expecting other people to accept it.
Who has asserted that?
Because you need to demonstrate something is true before others accept it as such.
No, it's also a claim. You can't expect others to believe your claim if you don't support it.
If not, then what's the point in asserting it?
Possibility isn't the issue. The issue is asserting that it's necessarily true.
allfoak
Alchemist
@ImmortalFlame
I really don't expect people like yourself to react in any other way than you do to the things i assert to be true.
I would be a fool to think i could convince you of the truth of the things that i know.
You have the truth that you live by and i have mine and thankfully this is true.
Life is supposed to be this way, i wish people would learn this so that we could just move on and begin learning from each other instead of arguing about who is right or wrong.
I do not assert the things i do because i sit around all day making this stuff up like i am writing a reality show or something.
I actually know the things i speak of but few are able to hear this because they are too caught up in their own beliefs.
Most people still operate from the idea of right and wrong.
There is very little i can do to change this but being the fool that i am, i try.
I really don't expect people like yourself to react in any other way than you do to the things i assert to be true.
I would be a fool to think i could convince you of the truth of the things that i know.
You have the truth that you live by and i have mine and thankfully this is true.
Life is supposed to be this way, i wish people would learn this so that we could just move on and begin learning from each other instead of arguing about who is right or wrong.
I do not assert the things i do because i sit around all day making this stuff up like i am writing a reality show or something.
I actually know the things i speak of but few are able to hear this because they are too caught up in their own beliefs.
Most people still operate from the idea of right and wrong.
There is very little i can do to change this but being the fool that i am, i try.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
What do you mean by "people like me", exactly?
You could at least try before making unfounded, patronizing assertions about what I would or would not accept. "What I believe is true but I'm not going to bother explaining why because you won't believe me anyway" has never been a convincing position on any subject, ever.
Except the truth that you live by is at least partially based on assumptions that you have basis for. You have no reason to assume light is eternal.
How can we be expected to learn from each other if we're just going to make assertions that we're not expected to support and then ignore other people when they explain why our assertions are unfounded?
Then please explain or demonstrate how you know that light is eternal. Again, claiming that you "know" something is meaningless without an explanation as to how.
You are making an assertion that light is eternal. Is that assertion right or wrong? If it's right, then you need to explain how and why you reached your conclusion. If it isn't, then why are you making the claim?
Rainbow Mage
Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I think about the best argument theism has going for it is metaphysics. The idea that we need something to base things on before we can speak of 'things'. My issue is that this is only an argument, and is not evidence. It also contradicts the typical view of god- that god cannot be described in human terms. How do you say god can't be described in human terms, and then set about doing just that?
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allfoak
Alchemist
@ImmortalFlame
I have been posting on this message board for over a year, what i accept to be true and why is posted all over this board.
My approach to obtaining knowledge is my signature at the bottom of every post i make.
I have a link to my journal that has more information than most even care to explore.
"People like yourself" means people that are so closed off by their own beliefs that they can't see the truth that is right in front of them.
The assertions that i make i have proven to be true through my own experience.
The information that is needed to to the same for yourself is all over this message board.
I am not the only one who posts these things.
I have been posting on this message board for over a year, what i accept to be true and why is posted all over this board.
My approach to obtaining knowledge is my signature at the bottom of every post i make.
I have a link to my journal that has more information than most even care to explore.
"People like yourself" means people that are so closed off by their own beliefs that they can't see the truth that is right in front of them.
The assertions that i make i have proven to be true through my own experience.
The information that is needed to to the same for yourself is all over this message board.
I am not the only one who posts these things.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
When you make a specific claim in a particular thread, do you honestly think it's perfectly reasonable to expect people to have to look around the entire rest of the forum and trawl through an entire year's worth of posts in order to find the justification for your claim rather than just ask you what your justification is?
I'm only interested in the explanation behind this one claim you are making. I see no need to read your journal.
And that is an extremely rude, patronizing and ignorant thing to accuse me of being just because I don't accept your claims at face value without reasoning. I demand you retract this and apologize.
In other words, you haven't proven them at all.
Please demonstrate that light is eternal.
allfoak
Alchemist
I think i said i did prove them.
This is my point, you can't even understand the simple things that i say and you want me to explain things that most will never come to understand?
I will do no such thing.
You have proven it to be true.
Over and over again i answer your questions and you insist i do not do it to your satisfaction.
I am not here for your satisfaction.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Personal experience isn't proof.
I understand the things you say perfectly well, I just don't think you can honestly support them. Yet again, you are rudely patronizing me rather than actually making a reasonable argument or engaging with me on any level.
How, exactly? All I have done it ask you how you "know" the things you claim to know. You have yet to answer the question once. I demand you retract the personal remarks you made about me and apologize.
You've not answered a single question I have put to you. Instead, you have insulted me personally and cast all sort of unfounded aspersions about me. That is not a reasonable way to behave, and if all you can do to defend your position is make insinuations about the people who question them then your position is obviously extremely weak, and you lack the ability to support it.
Prove me wrong. Retract what you said, apologize, engage with me on an intellectual level, explain your position, and maybe you and I may actually stand a chance at coming to a better understanding of each other (if not an agreement) and we can both actually learn something.
allfoak
Alchemist
@ImmortalFlame
Personal experience is the answer.
i have answered you over and over again and yet you insist i have not answered you.
You cannot decide for yourself what i know or how i obtained the knowledge i have.
I gave you an answer and you don't like it.
There is no more explaining to do.
You wont listen.
Personal experience is the answer.
i have answered you over and over again and yet you insist i have not answered you.
You cannot decide for yourself what i know or how i obtained the knowledge i have.
I gave you an answer and you don't like it.
There is no more explaining to do.
You wont listen.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
No, personal experience isn't proof. Proof is something you can use to demonstrate the truth of a claim - personal experience cannot be demonstrated.
That is a lie.
And yet you can decide that I am "closed off by my beliefs" and that I "can't see the truth"? You're a hypocrite.
It's hard to listen when there is nothing to listen to.
I demand you retract your insults and apologize.
allfoak
Alchemist
You say i have insulted you but all i do is tell you the truth.
I am sorry that you feel insulted.
I am not responsible for your feelings.
I will not retract the truth.
i am done communicating with you in this manner.
You insist that personal experience is not proof, yet you use your own personal experience to prove things to yourself all day everyday.
And you call me a hypocrite.
allfoak
Alchemist
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
That is a lie. You accused me of being closed-minded just because I don't accept what you are saying. You called me unable to see the truth in front of my face when you haven't even presented any truth to accept.
Again, this is patronizing and dishonest. When you call someone ignorant and close-minded you do so in full knowledge that they will be insulted, because it is an insult. You can't insult someone and then act as if it is their fault that they feel insulted. That is the height of dishonesty.
What you said was not true, and you have no basis on which to assert it is.
The difference is that I have MORE than my personal experience to prove them, and I make no such claims as "light is eternal", which is something that takes far more than personal experience to prove.
Because you are. You criticized me for making assumptions about what you know, despite the fact that you have repeatedly made assumptions about my beliefs and what I claim to know. That makes you a hypocrite by definition.
I can't decide what convinces you, but I can decide what should be convincing to any rational person via the actual definition of proof.
I demand you retract your insults and apologize.
allfoak
Alchemist
@ImmortalFlame
Test what i say for yourself and then come back and tell me i am wrong.
Doesn't make sense to do it any other way now does it?
Truth is something that is to be experienced, not learned from a book.
Test what i say for yourself and then come back and tell me i am wrong.
Doesn't make sense to do it any other way now does it?
Truth is something that is to be experienced, not learned from a book.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
And how exactly can I test whether or not light is eternal? Have YOU tested it?
It makes sense that when someone claims something they should have a good reason to claim it.
So explain exactly how you experienced that light is eternal and how I can recreate this experience for myself.
I demand that you retract your insults and apologize.
allfoak
Alchemist
Test it for yourself.
The first thing necessary obviously is faith.
Since there is no science to show it to be truth, then start with faith and test it.
It may take some time to be able to prove something like that, but it is possible.
The first thing we have to do is to learn how to use our intuition to gather knowledge and our reason to make sense of it.
Wholeness is the key.
We must learn how to use all of our faculties together.
We must become possessed by the truth.
It must be our only concern.
We must live it in word and deed without exception.
What is the truth and how do we become possessed by it?
"The truth" is different for everyone.
Not one of us see things from the same perspective, this means that we all see the same "truth" differently.
There is nothing but truth to be seen, yet most are not even able to see that.
This means that we must start with our own truth.
We must begin by exploring who we are.
All truth exists within us to be found.