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Are you a better person now due to your faith?

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I think it's very difficult to look in a mirror, and judge yourself on such questions. Asking, "Am I happier now?" is difficult, without some sort of very real truthful introspection.

There is also a ton of social pressure within religious groups to be happier, or at least to put on a big front to demonstrate your happiness. People can put on quite the happy face in public, then turn around and be chronically depressed in private.

An outsider may well have a more subjective opinion of the matter. Take an evangelical preacher as an example. Most likely he would claim to be happy. But many observers would see him as some very angry person. most especially during the 'yelling at everyone' sermons.

Why not ask a close long term friend if you're happier.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Are you saying the bible is wrong, that christians should ignore gods word and only follow jesus?

No, that's not what I am saying.....the Bible is an instruction manual....a teaching tool and a story about humans and their relationship with God from the beginning of their existence. It tells us what God's purpose was at the beginning....how humans lost their relationship with their Creator and how he makes it possible for a lasting reconciliation.

Each time period has something to teach us about human behavior and about expectations.....our expectations of God and his expectations concerning us.

With Jesus, he called his disciples out of a corrupt and useless religious system into a new arrangement. It came to be called "Christianity" and Jesus himself was the prime example of how his followers were to behave towards God and each other and towards fellow humans outside of that arrangement.

Bible principles should guide us in all we do, and Jesus showed us how to worship God under a new covenant.....the old one was invalidated when the new one was instituted. So yes, following Jesus is exactly what we should do. We should follow his example in how he treated others.
 

Misunderstood

Active Member
So.....are you what your faith dictates?
I hope so, but it only matters if Jesus thinks so, not what I think.
Are we created according to the Creator's will to live this life?
Yes and No. We are here because of his will, but I do not feel the world we live in is what He wants for us, He does let us decide between good and evil, I feel He prefers us to choose good. But His will is that we make the choice.

If so, why?
I again feel we are here as proof evil will always destroy everything both good and evil if left unchecked. And life can only survive if we hold our faith in him.

Did God set us up to fail?
No. We only fail when we lose faith in God and go after our own selfish desires. That is our fault.
Did he mean for satan to control the world and create pain and suffering for all of us?
Again No. We were to be in control of the world. We gave that over to satan with our sin.
If so, why?
I guess we feel we know more than God, and it is better to do it our way, not his.
[/QUOTE]
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
"No evidence to support the claim God exists" IS a view. Thats a belief. I dont have proof God exists, but as far as evidence goes, there is lots of evidence. Atleast thats my "view".

If it is only a view then this suggests you have evidence that can be falsified? Evidence that is not more logically explained by science rather than magic and confirmation bias?

Lol, no one is happy with deception. If i thought it wer deception, then id not believe it. Some people mock those outside there camp. Insecurity is a real phenomenon.

Faith then, a strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

This is too general for me to agree or disagree with.

Ok, i can only speak from experience of 9 years interacting with fundimentalists and the few i have had the misfortune to meet.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
No, that's not what I am saying.....the Bible is an instruction manual....a teaching tool and a story about humans and their relationship with God from the beginning of their existence. It tells us what God's purpose was at the beginning....how humans lost their relationship with their Creator and how he makes it possible for a lasting reconciliation.

You said "
Oh, so they were taking their que's from OT stuff? I thought being a Christian meant emulating Jesus?

So do christians take instruction from the OT or not?


Each time period has something to teach us about human behavior and about expectations.....our expectations of God and his expectations concerning us.

Yes 3000 years ago when illiteracy and ignorance of the world and science the teaching was god magic

2000 years ago it everyone was saying 'im fed up with this religion lets change it a bit and ill be leader'

1000 years ago it was do what the church tell you or die

And now education and the internet give access to so much knowledge and yet many people are still are stuck with 3000, 2000 and 1000 year old teaching

With Jesus, he called his disciples out of a corrupt and useless religious system into a new arrangement. It came to be called "Christianity" and Jesus himself was the prime example of how his followers were to behave towards God and each other and towards fellow humans outside of that arrangement.

Why knock another religion? It has given birth to several religions and yet it still exists. Your religion would not exist without it

Bible principles should guide us in all we do, and Jesus showed us how to worship God under a new covenant.....the old one was invalidated when the new one was instituted. So yes, following Jesus is exactly what we should do. We should follow his example in how he treated others.

Your opinion, in mine human morality should guide us, one shouldn't need a god sitting on their shoulder to tell them what is right and wrong.
 
If it is only a view then this suggests you have evidence that can be falsified? Evidence that is not more logically explained by science rather than magic and confirmation bias?

Yes, i have evidence that can be falsified. If science in the future can prove that literally, nothing can create something, or if they prove in the beginning nothing created something and that something created the universe, then intelligent design will be falsified. Or if they prove the universe was always here in one shape or another thus having no intelligent cause, then intelligent design will be falsified that way as well.

But, as it stands, an intelligent agency actively creating and designing the world, this is not magic, no more then humans designing and engineering technology is magic.

The alternative "view" is magic. Something from nothing, thats magic. All the order and design by chance? Thats magic. The laws of the universe from nothing or nowhere, thats the real magic.

Faith then, a strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

Spiritual conviction? What is that? I ask because thats not my reasons for faith.

My reasons are based on evidence (not proof) and logic and a good handful of my own enecdotal spiritual experiences, as well as my research into NDEs and the paronormal.

Ok, i can only speak from experience of 9 years interacting with fundimentalists and the few i have had the misfortune to meet.

Ok....well, you have more experience debating fundamentalists then me.

But, define fundamentalist?
 
I think it's very difficult to look in a mirror, and judge yourself on such questions. Asking, "Am I happier now?" is difficult, without some sort of very real truthful introspection.

There is also a ton of social pressure within religious groups to be happier, or at least to put on a big front to demonstrate your happiness. People can put on quite the happy face in public, then turn around and be chronically depressed in private.

An outsider may well have a more subjective opinion of the matter. Take an evangelical preacher as an example. Most likely he would claim to be happy. But many observers would see him as some very angry person. most especially during the 'yelling at everyone' sermons.

Why not ask a close long term friend if you're happier.

"Happyness" and "truth" are not the same.

It should not be about happiness but about reality.

For some, the reality they wont like, thus making them unhappy, while others the reality will make them happy since they will like it.
 

Vee

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This was a question asked on another thread.....

"Are you a better person now due to your faith? Or are you what your faith prescribes you to be and behave as. What is there to achieve when our flesh and soul are of God the moment we are conceived, but that a faith tells us we are less than from the time we're born by creators will.
Because we accept that, we believe we are that. And then we seek to correct that by holding faith in the precepts that tell us how to change that in order to please the creator we're told first made us that way.
To need him. And to fear the adversary he let to live and be lord of this world."


So.....are you what your faith dictates?

Are we created according to the Creator's will to live this life? If so, why?

Did God set us up to fail? Did he mean for satan to control the world and create pain and suffering for all of us? If so, why?

Thoughts....?

I'm not as good as I would like to be, but I'm definitely better than before :)
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Yes, i have evidence that can be falsified. If science in the future can prove that literally, nothing can create something, or if they prove in the beginning nothing created something and that something created the universe, then intelligent design will be falsified. Or if they prove the universe was always here in one shape or another thus having no intelligent cause, then intelligent design will be falsified that way as well.

But, as it stands, an intelligent agency actively creating and designing the world, this is not magic, no more then humans designing and engineering technology is magic.

The alternative "view" is magic. Something from nothing, thats magic. All the order and design by chance? Thats magic. The laws of the universe from nothing or nowhere, thats the real magic.



Spiritual conviction? What is that? I ask because thats not my reasons for faith.

My reasons are based on evidence (not proof) and logic and a good handful of my own enecdotal spiritual experiences, as well as my research into NDEs and the paronormal.



Ok....well, you have more experience debating fundamentalists then me.

But, define fundamentalist?

What you call evidence appears to be gaps. Science can't prove god doesnt exist* so god. Or science cannot prove my guess is wrong so god. Those gaps are getting smaller. Here
is a paper showing one way how something can come from nothing Spontaneous creation of the universe from nothing

Considering humans can be proven and god cant then yes its god magic

Shown above, something from nothing is quantum, not magic. Accretion is not magic unless you think gravity is magic. Nope, the laws coalesced after the universe formed from the properties of the universe.

Is it not? Interesting. NDEs mean god? Sounds more like confirmation bias rather than research. And anecdotal spiritual experiences somehow dont equate to spiritual conviction.

Fundimentalist : a person who believes in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture in a religion.

I will add to that from my own experience, usually cherry picked interpretation of their faith omitting the bits they dont agree with.


* There is considerable evidence, even proof, that at least some claimed aspects of gods cannot exist.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Nope, i am a much better person without faith. I have no god sitting on my shoulder telling me how to be moral (shock of shocks, the godless need to decide what is right and wrong all on their own)

I'm jaded from experience.

The most annoying people, and I wouldn't call them better people at all, but clearly worse people, are recent converts to fundamentalist sects. They're pompous, condescending, hateful, and more. (With time they tend to mellow out). One guy I know caused so much trouble with his family that a group got together and told him to never come to family get-togethers. He was far worse than the alcoholics who made donkeys of themselves. He thought he was being a better person, but he was probably the only one who thought that. Poor guy had no clue what a jerk he was.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I'm jaded from experience.

The most annoying people, and I wouldn't call them better people at all, but clearly worse people, are recent converts to fundamentalist sects. They're pompous, condescending, hateful, and more. (With time they tend to mellow out). One guy I know caused so much trouble with his family that a group got together and told him to never come to family get-togethers. He was far worse than the alcoholics who made donkeys of themselves. He thought he was being a better person, but he was probably the only one who thought that. Poor guy had no clue what a jerk he was.

I can relate to that. On another (now defunct) forum i used was a fundimentalist who literally threatened my children with eternal torture because i did not follow his faith. It turns out the congratulation of the church he attended had words in the right places and had him banned him from attending service. Seems my children were not the only ones he threatened.

Never heard of anyone being banned from church before.
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
This was a question asked on another thread.....

"Are you a better person now due to your faith? Or are you what your faith prescribes you to be and behave as. What is there to achieve when our flesh and soul are of God the moment we are conceived, but that a faith tells us we are less than from the time we're born by creators will.
Because we accept that, we believe we are that. And then we seek to correct that by holding faith in the precepts that tell us how to change that in order to please the creator we're told first made us that way.
To need him. And to fear the adversary he let to live and be lord of this world."


So.....are you what your faith dictates?

Are we created according to the Creator's will to live this life? If so, why?

Did God set us up to fail? Did he mean for satan to control the world and create pain and suffering for all of us? If so, why?

Thoughts....?

"Faith" is simply pretending to believe what you really don't think is true. The "virtue" of faith is really just intellectual dishonesty.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
I can relate to that. On another (now defunct) forum i used was a fundimentalist who literally threatened my children with eternal torture because i did not follow his faith. It turns out the congratulation of the church he attended had words in the right places and had him banned him from attending service. Seems my children were not the only ones he threatened.

Never heard of anyone being banned from church before.

One of the Mormon parents I taught told me they discussed kicking another one out for similar reasons. I had dealt with her as well, and it came up in a conversation supporting me. Colloquially termed a battle axe. So I'm guessing it does happen.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So do christians take instruction from the OT or not?

Each time period recorded in the Bible teaches us something about our relationship with the Creator. Principles are carried forward as a learning tool. Much of Israel's laws were concerned with human behavior. Israel could contrast its laws and practices with those of the nations around them who had no such laws.

Their hygiene laws alone prevented a lot of health problems. Their compensation laws meant that there was no need for prisons. Those who committed theft, worked to pay for what they stole many times over. Capital crimes were never committed again because the death penalty prevented them ever doing so.

Scripture also provided a way to gain instruction from the Creator on what to do individually to bring benefits to the nation as a whole, and what to avoid because the consequences could also affect the whole nation.

It was designed to allow humans to see their individual place in God's arrangement, as contributing to the wellbeing of the collective. Following his instructions would have saved them from many disasters, but they never learned the lessons from the past, so we're doomed to repeat them.

We still see humans thinking that they should make their own decisions about everything and chafe at any limitations placed on them. If we want our children to grow up as responsible adults, then we place fair restrictions on them for their own good....why would the Creator do less for his own children?

Yes 3000 years ago when illiteracy and ignorance of the world and science the teaching was god magic

2000 years ago it everyone was saying 'im fed up with this religion lets change it a bit and ill be leader'

1000 years ago it was do what the church tell you or die

And now education and the internet give access to so much knowledge and yet many people are still are stuck with 3000, 2000 and 1000 year old teaching

It's a funny thing about "progress".....most people just see the benefits whilst ignoring the detriment. But when the detriment outweighs the benefits, they still cling to their own ideas as if the detriment couldn't be avoided. God has always given us ways to avoid trouble.....we fail because we don't listen.

"I did it my way" rings hollow when you are standing on a dying planet surrounded by sick people (morally, spiritually and physically) as the result of humans thinking they can do things better without God. Humans are pathetic when it comes to governing themselves. Have we woken up to that yet? o_O

Why knock another religion? It has given birth to several religions and yet it still exists. Your religion would not exist without it

Jesus showed us what happens when you take something good and pollute the daylights out of it.

The Jewish faith was founded on Mt Sinai when Moses put God's conditions before them. He had rescued them from slavery in Egypt and was going to lead them through a wilderness and into a bountiful land that we was going to gift the them as their exclusive possession. It would have been like the garden of Eden to them, but like their forefather Adam, they just couldn't seem to get the obedience thing under control. Self interest keeps getting in the way.

Christendom did the same to Christianity as the Jews did to Judaism. History repeats because we refuse to listen and learn. Soon, I believe the lesson will be concluded.

In Eden, the conditions for continuing life in paradise was obedience. Entering the Promised Land was also based on obedience....what is up with humans who think they know better than their Maker?! Do they never get it, that the one thing that stops them from getting a better life is still their own disobedience? :shrug:

Your opinion, in mine human morality should guide us, one shouldn't need a god sitting on their shoulder to tell them what is right and wrong.

Comments like that just make me smile. Human morality is dying, in case you hadn't noticed. This is because God has been removed from so many shoulders.

It's the hypocritical religious systems that misrepresent God that are the problem.

Misrepresenting God was what caused the first humans to rebel....what has changed in all these thousands of years, when the solution to all our problems was in plain sight all along?

Rebelling against God and his reasonable restrictions has been the cause of every disaster and calamity that humans have brought on themselves. Ignoring God's rules just keeps it happening.

Has no one twigged by now? :confused:
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I'm not as good as I would like to be, but I'm definitely better than before :)

None of us are who we would like to be....if we disappoint ourselves, I imagine we disappoint Jehovah more, but that is why Jesus came, so that when we have done the wrong thing, there is at least a basis upon which to say sorry, and try to do better. Our imperfections are sometimes a heavy load to carry. :(

But not for longer now my sister.....soon this will all be just ancient history.

How amazing is it that time itself seems to have sped up? A month now feels like a week! Years are flying by as months turn into years at lightning speed! :eek: Jehovah said he would speed things up......
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Each time period recorded in the Bible teaches us something about our relationship with the Creator. Principles are carried forward as a learning tool. Much of Israel's laws were concerned with human behavior. Israel could contrast its laws and practices with those of the nations around them who had no such laws.

Their hygiene laws alone prevented a lot of health problems. Their compensation laws meant that there was no need for prisons. Those who committed theft, worked to pay for what they stole many times over. Capital crimes were never committed again because the death penalty prevented them ever doing so.

Scripture also provided a way to gain instruction from the Creator on what to do individually to bring benefits to the nation as a whole, and what to avoid because the consequences could also affect the whole nation.

It was designed to allow humans to see their individual place in God's arrangement, as contributing to the wellbeing of the collective. Following his instructions would have saved them from many disasters, but they never learned the lessons from the past, so we're doomed to repeat them.

We still see humans thinking that they should make their own decisions about everything and chafe at any limitations placed on them. If we want our children to grow up as responsible adults, then we place fair restrictions on them for their own good....why would the Creator do less for his own children?



It's a funny thing about "progress".....most people just see the benefits whilst ignoring the detriment. But when the detriment outweighs the benefits, they still cling to their own ideas as if the detriment couldn't be avoided. God has always given us ways to avoid trouble.....we fail because we don't listen.

"I did it my way" rings hollow when you are standing on a dying planet surrounded by sick people (morally, spiritually and physically) as the result of humans thinking they can do things better without God. Humans are pathetic when it comes to governing themselves. Have we woken up to that yet? o_O



Jesus showed us what happens when you take something good and pollute the daylights out of it.

The Jewish faith was founded on Mt Sinai when Moses put God's conditions before them. He had rescued them from slavery in Egypt and was going to lead them through a wilderness and into a bountiful land that we was going to gift the them as their exclusive possession. It would have been like the garden of Eden to them, but like their forefather Adam, they just couldn't seem to get the obedience thing under control. Self interest keeps getting in the way.

Christendom did the same to Christianity as the Jews did to Judaism. History repeats because we refuse to listen and learn. Soon, I believe the lesson will be concluded.

In Eden, the conditions for continuing life in paradise was obedience. Entering the Promised Land was also based on obedience....what is up with humans who think they know better than their Maker?! Do they never get it, that the one thing that stops them from getting a better life is still their own disobedience? :shrug:



Comments like that just make me smile. Human morality is dying, in case you hadn't noticed. This is because God has been removed from so many shoulders.

It's the hypocritical religious systems that misrepresent God that are the problem.

Misrepresenting God was what caused the first humans to rebel....what has changed in all these thousands of years, when the solution to all our problems was in plain sight all along?

Rebelling against God and his reasonable restrictions has been the cause of every disaster and calamity that humans have brought on themselves. Ignoring God's rules just keeps it happening.

Has no one twigged by now? :confused:

Re ancient Israel, where did you get your rose coloured glasses?
Also the is no evidence that hebrews were ever slaves in egypt or that they spent 40 years in the desert. Most jewish scholars consider these stories allegory.

What is up with humans who base their life on a bronze age myth?

Say what? Human morality is christian morality with bells and whistles. Christianity is dying for sure. But humans will (for the most part) continue knowing right from wrong.

If god were defined then the charge of misrepresenting could hold water. Considering no 2 people can agree what a god is then misrepresentation is pretty moot.

Which of the 4200 gods (excluding the 33 million hindu gods) are you talking about? Which god is responsible for the deaths by starvation, tsunami, hurricane? Even if i wanted to worship a god it would not be one who murders people by creating disasters just because people rebel against it.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
There is considerable evidence, even proof, that at least some claimed aspects of gods cannot exist.

Could you elaborate on this statement please.....I am interested In the idea that humans (scientists I presume) can proclaim that there are aspects of "gods" that cannot exist....I can understand that with regard to mythical foreign deities, but is it true that aspects of the Biblical Creator cannot exist? Is there a difference?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Re ancient Israel, where did you get your rose coloured glasses?
Also the is no evidence that hebrews were ever slaves in egypt or that they spent 40 years in the desert. Most jewish scholars consider these stories allegory.

Jewish scholars do not dictate my beliefs...I would hardly find them a reliable source of correct interpretation.
Egypt never recorded anything in their history that portrayed defeat. They only recorded their victories. From the way Pharaoh was portrayed in the time of Israel's slavery, is it any wonder?

Jews haven't got too much to be proud of if you read their history in scripture. Of course they are going to make light of whatever they can to lift the burden of guilt carried by them. Their Messiah came and they rejected him.....worse than that, they even murdered him. How can God forgive that? (Matthew 23:37-39)

What is up with humans who base their life on a bronze age myth?

Does referring to the "Bronze Age" make it appear to be somehow associated with cave men of limited mentality? The Egyptian civilization was "Bronze Age" and it was one of the most advanced of its time. Perhaps you are making reference to a myth yourself?

Say what? Human morality is christian morality with bells and whistles. Christianity is dying for sure. But humans will (for the most part) continue knowing right from wrong.

Do you not get out much? Humans continue knowing right from wrong?! Seriously where do you live? o_O

Humans have so blurred the line in every aspect of human living that no one knows right from wrong anymore.....remember that was the issue in Eden. When humans wanted to decide for themselves what was right and what was wrong, God gave them that freedom....he stepped out of the picture to allow them to experience what it means to do that.......and so the wheels fell off the whole human race until we now have the ability to create our own extinction. Clever, aren't we? :confused:

If god were defined then the charge of misrepresenting could hold water. Considering no 2 people can agree what a god is then misrepresentation is pretty moot.

God does not hide from the ones who genuinely seek him.

Which of the 4200 gods (excluding the 33 million hindu gods) are you talking about?

The real one. Not the 4,199 fakes. (Or the other millions) If you can't tell the difference, then any wonder that you seem confused.

Which god is responsible for the deaths by starvation, tsunami, hurricane? Even if i wanted to worship a god it would not be one who murders people by creating disasters just because people rebel against it.

God is not responsible for "natural" disasters. Nature uncontrolled, or manipulated by man can be a terrible force to be reckoned with.....but humans said they could do things better by themselves, so they are left to do just that. God will not prevent us from reaping what we have sown. That is what they asked for.

God does not commit murder because he is the arbiter of life and death. The executioner is not a murderer if someone breaking the law has merited the death penalty.

Who is a better judge of human behavior than one who can read hearts, minds and motives?

If you break his laws....expect a penalty. How is that not fair. God is the Law.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Could you elaborate on this statement please.....I am interested In the idea that humans (scientists I presume) can proclaim that there are aspects of "gods" that cannot exist....I can understand that with regard to mythical foreign deities, but is it true that aspects of the Biblical Creator cannot exist? Is there a difference?

Again running out of battery, ill do this one, the second one tomorrow

Several points

Science does not concern itself with the supernatural or magic, so not science although my first and last are mathematical

E=mc2 shows the god of revelation 19:6 (kjv and others) (i.e. omnipotent) cannot exist at the same time as matter. Omnipotent is infinite power, power is energy expended over time. There is matter so energy cannot be infinite. Hence no omnipotent god.
My view on taking the equation to its ultimate conclusion

Childhood leukemia shows no compassionate god can exist

The mosquito shows no designer god can exist, what god would design a race to worship him then design a small insect to kill his worshippers?

The futility of prayer shows no listening god exists

And proof by exhaustion indicates no gods exist. I.e in 10000 years of god worship literally billions of people have tried to prove their god exists.. and failed. It would only take 1 success to overthrow the proof. Waiting.
 
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