Are You a Materialist?

[von bek]

What are the mechanics by which such a process can occur

Dependent origination. You find that answer unsatisfactory, I realize.

Can you tell me what you think happens immediately after death to an individual.

I believe that with the cessation of the final moment of consciousness in one body, the stream of consciousness flows into a new body conditioned by both mind and matter.

Rebirth to me sounds unimportant if there is no conscious continuation after death. What say you?

Do you remember any of your past lives?

What do you think of the near death experience phenomena as an indication of what happens immediately after death.

I honestly pay little attention to accounts of NDE.

 

[George-ananda]

Dependent origination. You find that answer unsatisfactory, I realize.

I was asking about the mechanics of the process, not origination. That is just a phrase that you can't relate in language anything others would find more than obvious common sense..

I believe that with the cessation of the final moment of consciousness in one body, the stream of consciousness flows into a new body conditioned by both mind and matter.

That is as good as no afterlife to the individual. Why should we strive for more than relative comfort and enjoyment in this life?

If you believe that, then you should stick with the belief. I personally don't believe that what you say is true from my study of the paranormal and the teachings of those I have come to respect as more advanced than me. I believe there are astral, mental and causal temporary bodies associated with our temporary physical body.

Do you remember any of your past lives?

Not through my normal conscious memory of course. But after death we spend considerable time on the astral plane with our earthly love ones in a heavenly type realm before being reunited with our Causal Body which exists for many lifetimes and remembers all its lifetimes.

I honestly pay little attention to accounts of NDE.

Why would you pay little attention? Personally, I am interested in fully considering everything that might help me better understand our existence.

 

[JustWondering]

Here is the working definition of Materialism for this thread (per Wikipedia):

Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all phenomena, including mental phenomena and consciousness, are the result of material interactions.

If you are a materialist, you can not believe in anything metaphysical like God, afterlives, spirits, souls, etc.

I want to keep this question as basic as possible because questions often get misunderstood here if they say too much.

I will argue that there are only three possible answers: 'Yes', 'No' and 'Undecided' and that everyone must have one and only one answer. If some tries to waffle a fourth answer I will argue until my Koala Bear avatar turns blue in the face that this is not possible.

I'll go first; I am a 'No' on the question as I believe consciousness is primary and that souls and non-physical spiritual planes exist that are not composed of physical plane material.

Yes.

 

[Willamena]

I was asking about the mechanics of the process, not origination.

The mechanics are called Dependent Origination.
Pratītyasamutpāda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[George-ananda]

The mechanics are called Dependent Origination.
Pratītyasamutpāda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So are you saying this dependent origination involves something not understood by modern science?

Edit: Perhaps I read to much into the original statement by Von Bek: One example would be how present karma conditions a future material form. Maybe he was just saying something that would just be a given to anyone of any philosophy. It seems Buddhism has a fancy way of saying the obvious sometimes

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It seems Buddhism has a fancy way of saying the obvious sometimes

Yes it does! But there is a world of difference between intellectual understanding and direct insight.

 

[George-ananda]

Yes it does! But there is a world of difference between intellectual understanding and direct insight.

That's like my Advaita religion. It's one thing to intellectually understand the concepts but quite another more difficult task to have this understanding part of your actual experience.

 

[Etritonakin]

Unless something is made of nothing -and so is nothing -then it is made of something -some material. The more we discover, the more we call it "material", so everything is material, but it is not necessarily known material.

If something is, then it is material.

However, I suppose things like ideas are not themselves material, but must be represented by material -but that's just a technicality.

 

[George-ananda]

Unless something is made of nothing -and so is nothing -then it is made of something -some material.

Consciousness might be an example of something with no matter. Many posit that consciousness is primary and matter is a creation of consciousness. But what that consciousness actually is, is beyond our conception. One famous scientist said 'we can not get behind consciousness'.

The more we discover, the more we call it "material", so everything is material, but it is not necessarily known material.

What about posited matter of another dimension? That's a grey area. I think the definers of 'materialism' were referring to just matter of our three-dimensional physical world.

If something is, then it is material.

The God posited by most theists is not material. Would you call ghosts if they exist material?

However, I suppose things like ideas are not themselves material, but must be represented by material -but that's just a technicality.

To me that can clearly be considered material and reducible to the movement in a brain.

 

[Shad]

Here is the working definition of Materialism for this thread (per Wikipedia):

Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all phenomena, including mental phenomena and consciousness, are the result of material interactions.

If you are a materialist, you can not believe in anything metaphysical like God, afterlives, spirits, souls, etc.

I want to keep this question as basic as possible because questions often get misunderstood here if they say too much.

I will argue that there are only three possible answers: 'Yes', 'No' and 'Undecided' and that everyone must have one and only one answer. If some tries to waffle a fourth answer I will argue until my Koala Bear avatar turns blue in the face that this is not possible.

I'll go first; I am a 'No' on the question as I believe consciousness is primary and that souls and non-physical spiritual planes exist that are not composed of physical plane material.

I am not since materialism is outdated as a term and philosophical idea by almost a century due to modern physics. Matter is not longer a coherent term as new observation add to what we call "matter". Materialism is highly dependent upon causality which is a failed argument by induction.

 

[Etritonakin]

Consciousness might be an example of something with no matter. Many posit that consciousness is primary and matter is a creation of consciousness. But what that consciousness actually is, is beyond our conception. One famous scientist said 'we can not get behind consciousness'.


What about posited matter of another dimension? That's a grey area. I think the definers of 'materialism' were referring to just matter of our three-dimensional physical world.


The God posited by most theists is not material. Would you call ghosts if they exist material?


To me that can clearly be considered material and reducible to the movement in a brain.

I would call spirits material (God, angels, etc.) -but a different sort of material. They have spirit bodies, we have flesh bodies.
However, the complete nature of the "spirit" within the body -sometimes called a soul -the personality/consciousness -may be beyond my ability to understand at present.

I believe that the elements were designed and brought into being by processing some other material which could be manipulated -but also that our reality is similar to a virtual world from God's perspective.

I don't believe anything can be nothing -so it is all some sort of material to me -or a specific arrangement of some sort of material which can affect other sorts of material on different levels.

I do believe we are essentially "within" God, though -and he can represent himself to us on our level even though he is more than what we might perceive at any time -but what I mean would require more explanation and my battery is running low.

I believe consciousness itself becomes more of what it is and more complex as it interacts and creates more things of which to be conscious -and is an interplay between what is able to sense and what is able to be sensed -but I do not claim to understand the most basic nature of it.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram George ananda ji

I'll go first; I am a 'No' on the question as I believe consciousness is primary and that souls and non-physical spiritual planes exist that are not composed of physical plane material.

I am with you on the ''No''

 

[muichimotsu]

I'd say yes, but I wouldn't use the term materialist, since, as some have observed, it's not exactly clear and is clouded by a separate value system that focuses on fulfillment through having lots of stuff.

Physicalist is fairly accurate, from what I understand, though it might be too simplistic, if we're acknowledging emergent properties, since that would be acknowledging something "spiritual" in the abstract sense. The opposite end of the spectrum would be only that the mind/the spiritual exists and the physical is merely an illusion.

But these are two monistic or nondualistic metaphysics, while there are dualistic systems that have a soul and body as either able to be separate or two halves of the same whole, also saying there are purely spiritual beings and purely physical beings (those without a soul at all like animals, I suppose).

So there are at least 4 systems in place, possibly with other variants as people have noted, such as the paranormal as still within purely physical structures, but not understood at the moment. Our "soul" could be electrical signals in a cloud server, like tht one Futurama episode.

 

[idav]

Here is the working definition of Materialism for this thread (per Wikipedia):

Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all phenomena, including mental phenomena and consciousness, are the result of material interactions.

If you are a materialist, you can not believe in anything metaphysical like God, afterlives, spirits, souls, etc.

I want to keep this question as basic as possible because questions often get misunderstood here if they say too much.

I will argue that there are only three possible answers: 'Yes', 'No' and 'Undecided' and that everyone must have one and only one answer. If some tries to waffle a fourth answer I will argue until my Koala Bear avatar turns blue in the face that this is not possible.

I'll go first; I am a 'No' on the question as I believe consciousness is primary and that souls and non-physical spiritual planes exist that are not composed of physical plane material.

The fact that something need be a fundamental substance is key there, I think God is of some sort of substance otherwise matter. Even if it starts as a frequency there is something that has to be vibrating at a gazillion miles a second. God is other than the vacuum that is space.

 

[muichimotsu]

So, monism with variations of recognizability?

 

[idav]

I think before you can say there are two fundamental substances, I start with substance/existing being fundamental. That's what would make a dualism one of the same thing.

 

[muichimotsu]

There is dialectical monism, noting that everything is essentially unified, but expresses itself in dualistic terms. Almost irght in the middle, though technically leaning towards monism anyway.

 

[idav]

There is dialectical monism, noting that everything is essentially unified, but expresses itself in dualistic terms. Almost irght in the middle, though technically leaning towards monism anyway.

That's interesting.

 

[muichimotsu]

Basically considered Buddhist and some Greek philosophers, like Heraclitus and Hippolytus, as well as Daoism

 

[atanu]

Here is the working definition of Materialism for this thread (per Wikipedia):

Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all phenomena, including mental phenomena and consciousness, are the result of material interactions.

If you are a materialist, you can not believe in anything metaphysical like God, afterlives, spirits, souls, etc.

I want to keep this question as basic as possible because questions often get misunderstood here if they say too much.

I will argue that there are only three possible answers: 'Yes', 'No' and 'Undecided' ........

What about an 'ineffable ungraspable', nature of which is existence-consciousness-bliss? What will I call that? Material or non mateial?