-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Are you Certain There is no God?
- Thread starter Nakosis
- Start date
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
The jump from none intelligence to intelligence is a wild jump that I consider to be quite impossible. Even putting one thing in a right place such as organizing a book shelf requires purposing to do it.
I billion years ago, nobody organized books on a shelf. Now some do. But that step did not take place overnight. It was a continuos improvement via small set.
you assume that intelligence, however you define it, is binary. Either you have none or you have all of it.
how do you come to this conclusion?
ciao
- viole
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
No I don't. AlphaGo taught us that intelligence can far exceed humans, and is perhaps limitless. Evolution did not give us intelligence all at once I know. But the smallest amount of intelligence in nature is no small feat.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Why could life not have started through natural processes?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
It is not a jump. There is a gradual increase that we can see in various life forms. We are not all that much more intelligent than other apes. And there are other fairly intelligent species out there right now. We are merely the current winner in intelligence among living organisms.
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
It did arise from natural processes. Natural processes can have intelligence built into them. For me that must be the case. And I do believe there are scientists out there studying about the intelligence of evolution.
Is evolution more intelligent than we thought?
Last edited:
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
I would say that intelligence is an emergent property. No need for it to be built in.
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
An eternal intelligence has nothing but time to learn and grow. A gradual process is no obstacle.
Sandra Jayne
Member
Death, with no hope of resurrection, no-one is short changed until the end of the day of judgement and there is no such place as hell and eternal torment that was just a clever way of the church frightening people into doing what it says.
For God does not show favouritism. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. Romans 2: 10-14
I understand this as meaning those who do not believe and sin will die but so will those who profess to be Christians but do not obey what God has said will also die.
Dave Watchman
Active Member
It's not up to me. If there is a God, it is up to God.
Agreed.
Agreed.
I'd like to think we have a choice, but so much of what we are and do seems to be baked in the cake.
I'm reading this extra Biblical book 2 Esdras. In Chapters 7 and 8, Esdras is arguing on behalf of the lost with God, who, after making a reply to every one of his points, just basically says don't worry about the lost, just be thankful for the people I'm saving.
"For this is the way of which Moses, while he was alive, spoke to the people, saying, ‘Choose life for yourself, so that you may live!’ But they did not believe him or the prophets after him, or even myself who have spoken to them. Therefore there shall not grief at their destruction, so much as joy over those to whom salvation is assured.”
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Esdras 7 - New Revised Standard Version
"Therefore do not ask any more questions about the great number of those who perish. For when they had opportunity to choose, they despised the Most High, and were contemptuous of his law, and abandoned his ways. Moreover, they have even trampled on his righteous ones, and said in their hearts that there is no God—though they knew well that they must die.
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Esdras 8 - New Revised Standard Version
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Esdras 7 - New Revised Standard Version
"Therefore do not ask any more questions about the great number of those who perish. For when they had opportunity to choose, they despised the Most High, and were contemptuous of his law, and abandoned his ways. Moreover, they have even trampled on his righteous ones, and said in their hearts that there is no God—though they knew well that they must die.
Bible Gateway passage: 2 Esdras 8 - New Revised Standard Version
This doesn't seem quite the same as giving up a seat on one of the Titanic's collapsible life boats.
This is the weeping and gnashing of teeth deal.
There's going to be nothing like it.
I'm not looking forward to it.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your response.
So what does it mean for something to be a "higher power?" For example, is it enough to say that a higher power is something more powerful than a human?
Do all higher powers require worship? Further, do all higher power beleivers worship what they consider to be a higher power and how do you define worship? Lastly, in your estimation how did the various worshipers of a higher power or higher powers determine that a higher power even existed?
Thanks.
Love God
Member
The first principle of thermodynamics? Oh dear, are you sure you really wanna do this? Like venturing into thermodynamics, the total amount of energy in the universe, the arrow of time, the range of applicability, etc? If I were you I would be content with your miracles and such to prove God. Are they not enough? Unless you know more physics than biology, of course
The Bible? I would say atheists know the Bible better than Christians, generally. And I was a born again, so I read it. Several tmes.
alas, after a bit of reasoning, I realized that those tales are not more plausible than the tales of Pinocchio, and that if someone had told me, when I was a kid, that it was Pinocchio the truth, and the Bible fiction, I would have probably become a born again Pinocchioist.
for, what is more plausible, talking snakes and prophets living days in a big tuna fish, or wooden children whose nose increase monotonically with rate of lie?
ergo, the Bible is probably one of the best tools to actually becoming atheists, when you realize the nonsense it contains.
ciao
- viole
Which writer of which ‘standard biology books’ should I read?
What is the second law of thermodynamics?
If you are a scientist or lover of all things science, please teach me how science ‘does away‘ with [a] God?
I agree with the fact that many people that are calling themselves ‘Christian’ do not know, do not understand, nor have ever read the bible.
Most people do not know if God’s word even exists...
Only 7% of professing Christians claim to have read the entire bible.
It gets worse for Romans. Only .50% (yes, half of 1%) of professing ‘faithfuls’ claim to have read the bible.
Not to mention the other groups; humanists, atheists, religions, et al...
That is an whole lotta bible illiterates.
And yet they all have facts and solid ‘truths’ about a book that they have never read.
(If they were in school giving a book report on a book that they have never read, that would result in an ‘F’, as in FAIL.)
In which religion were you raised? Did they teach the bible (or ‘versions’?)? Are you young, middle adult, or more experienced in life?
I came to the knowledge of the saving grace of the Lord Jesus Christ at age 47. And that after many years of battling against him. Age 47 is old to be saved in today’s world. By then, most people are solidified in their particular life choices...
Joy
“Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.”
John 4:48 KJV
Jonah and the ‘big tuna’...
“Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.”
Jonah 1:17 KJV
If you had all power, what could you achieve?
“For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”
Matthew 12:40 KJV
Signs, types, and wonders...makes God a fairytale? How?
Last edited:
PureX
Veteran Member
It is not necessary to have read the Bible to recognize and accept the revelation and promise of 'Christ'. Christ is not a religion, and does not require any particular religious indoctrination.
Many of the people who have read it still have no idea what it's saying. Especially those who venerate it as though God, Himself, had written it.
most people are never "solidified" about life, and what it means to them. Some are. Some give up asking. Most just put one foot in front of the other and keep going, never knowing why, exactly.
Humans cannot comprehend the nature or character of "God", so we make up stories, and images, and ideologies to help us grasp the incomprehensible. Or to help us at least imagine that we can grasp it.
We do the same thing with science.
PureX
Veteran Member
Why is "obedience to the aw" so important to you? So much so that you will accept an ideology that claims that apart from this obedience, everyone is doomed? After all, you didn't have to accept this idea as being true.
Love God
Member
Well spoken.
If God, from a ‘believer’s’ perspective, is perfect, does he have perfect words?
Have you had the pleasure to witness our Lord and Saviour to diverse, other-sided believers?
If you are young, have you tried to show someone ‘older’ new things?
The aversion to new things for ‘older’ more experienced people is real. I was young once ...
I am now ‘older’. The thought has occurred to me that I have no interest in the ‘new things’...
Not because new things aren’t interesting. But, from this angle, I have led an interesting life and my enthusiasm for adventure has waned.
I think it true, to varying degrees, for most ‘older’ people.
So, yes, ‘selling’ someone on the need to be saved, after having lived a long comfortable life, is difficult.
Salvation is an hard sell to the young crowd...
As far as reading the bible, one should.
You are reading this and I am just a sinner saved by grace.
Why wouldn’t you read something the Lord wrote to you, who created you.
Whose words are more important, mine or God’s?
If, God, indeed, has perfect words to be found...
Joy
“Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read:
no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate:
for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.”
Isaiah 34:16
“And they stood up in their place, and read in the book of the law of the Lord their God one fourth part of the day;
and another fourth part they confessed, and worshipped the Lord their God.”
Nehemiah 9:3 KJV
(That’s 6 hours reading, and 6 more hours confessing and worshipping... Who Does That!)
Last edited:
It is a law that makes it impossible for 1 hour old human embryos to develop into full complex human adults
Again, my suggestion is that you keep clear from such things, if you do not want to embarras yourself. Unless you have more knowledge than the guys in Answers in Genesis have. Which is basically equal to zero.
Very simple. We assume He does not intervene, and everything works perfectly fine. I would say that science is so successful exactly because its epistemology refutes supernatural intervention. In other words, assuming He does not exist, or He is irrelevant, is what makes science successful.
now, what would a rational person conclude about the importance of God in our assumptions about the world?
ciao
- viole
PureX
Veteran Member
I don't know what perfection is. ... What it 'looks like'. So even if God "has perfect words" I wouldn't be able to grasp that perfection. So I don't presume to.
Pretty much everyone is already aware of the story. What is missing, I think, is a reasonable understanding of the message the story is intended to convey. I believe I have a reasonable understanding of the message, and will share it with whomever is interested. Apart from that, I can't presume any further.
I am older as well. And It's sometimes sad that the young are not interested in the hard-earned wisdom of those who are older, but I get that they want (and probably need) to make their own mistakes. Making mistakes, and how we respond to them is how we define ourselves, and become who we are. So I certainly wouldn't want to deny anyone that. I guess there are no 'shortcuts'.
As for myself, I still like learning new things, and I appreciate the enthusiasm of the young, even if I am skeptical about any real "advances".
Identifying that what we need to be saved from, is ourselves, is difficult. I agree. And perhaps it's not always true. Who am I to say? All I know is that this was so, for me.
God's Divine Spirit is within us. All of us. If reading books helps us to recognize this, and to allow this spirit within to have us, and heal us, and save us from ourselves, then by all means, read those books. But God is not in the books. And the books are not necessary for the healing to begin. I have read the Bible. And I am grateful for some of the things I read, there. But it's not a sacred 'how to' book, for me. I am not a Jew, and I am not religious Christian, so a fair amount of it is of little direct significance, to me.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
The Second Law of Thermodynamics is merely a law on the availability of energy for work. The creationist version is over simplified and therefore wrong. In an isolated system the entropy always increases. That means less energy is available for work. Overall order decreases. Creationists then make the error of interpreting that as saying that order has to decrease everywhere. That is incorrect. That only applies to an isolated system. The Earth is not an isolated system. Energy is constantly entering and leaving the Earth so that oversimplified version does not apply.
Second law of thermodynamics - Wikipedia